The Seven Trumpets and The Seven Bowls

iamlamad

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Rev.9 are higher level demons that can do more than just fly my true friend especially when God uses them for His purpose (IIThes.2:10b-12) possibly this very moment superimposed upon me or you of both of us? :confused:



Remember includes "perdition".

Old Jack ;)

Jack, why not just BELIEVE? It is so difficult to just believe what is written without trying to put a spin on it?

John called them locusts. Will they be about the same size as other locusts? Probably. They can fly like other locusts. There appeared to be multiplied millions of them, hiding in a huge cloud of smoke from the bottomless pit. As far as we know, there is no physical opening to hell or to the bottomless pit, if they are separate places. But it appears this will be a physical opening that will allow smoke to come out. Along with the smoke, these locusts.

They have the same power as a scorpion. What is the power of a scorpion? It is their sting. In India, it is frequently deadly, but everywhere it is very painful. Scorpions cannot fly - but they locusts that sting like scorpions will fly. These locusts have a special mission - not to eat everything green as typical locusts, but to STING all people who were not sealed in Rev. 7. Their specific purpose is TORMENT. They will sting and torment men for 5 months. Who know what happens to them then. The sting will be so bad, people stung will wish to die, but cannot.

Not it gets more interesting: John said these locusts are shaped like horses! Perhaps miniature horses? They appeared to have gold colored crowns on their heads. Their faces were as men's faces....perhaps in shape? They had long hair - perhaps in comparison to their size. They had teeth like a lion's teeth. I guess that means long and sharp, designed for tearing flesh. My guess is, they not only sting, but bite also - but John did not mention this. Finally, they had tails like a scorpion with a terrible sting.

So do we believe this or not? No one has ever seen such a locust, but these come out of hell. Perhaps they were created for just this one time. This is written in God's word. It is truth. But it is only as John described what he saw. I think the main point is not exactly what they look like, but the fact that they WILL come out and WILL sting people and torment them. My guess is, they will cause great fear, as well as torture.

Jack, there is not even a tiny hint in Revelation that this will not be PHYSICAL torture from a real sting. To imagine it is some vague reference to deception is simply not believing the scripture. These things STING and with that sting torture people.

LAMAD
 
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shturt678s

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Jack, why not just BELIEVE?

Like I said, Bible translations are interpretive, and will say anything one wants them to say, ie, let along when our Lord in heaven casts down "error's working" from heaven (Rev.8:7, etc.) upon those that don't have an agape for the truth (IIThess.2:10b-12). Hopefully no one has the truth on this thread thus we will be o.k. :confused:

It is so difficult to just believe what is written without trying to put a spin on it?

Funny you said this, ie, I feel that I just got out of a washer's spin cycle on another thread a little bit ago. btw I do have a rock and spindle, but no staff to spin. ^_^ Appreciate you my friend :hug:

John called them locusts. Will they be about the same size as other locusts? Probably. They can fly like other locusts. There appeared to be multiplied millions of them, hiding in a huge cloud of smoke from the bottomless pit. As far as we know, there is no physical opening to hell or to the bottomless pit, if they are separate places. But it appears this will be a physical opening that will allow smoke to come out. Along with the smoke, these locusts.

They have the same power as a scorpion. What is the power of a scorpion? It is their sting. In India, it is frequently deadly, but everywhere it is very painful. Scorpions cannot fly - but they locusts that sting like scorpions will fly. These locusts have a special mission - not to eat everything green as typical locusts, but to STING all people who were not sealed in Rev. 7. Their specific purpose is TORMENT. They will sting and torment men for 5 months. Who know what happens to them then. The sting will be so bad, people stung will wish to die, but cannot.

Not it gets more interesting: John said these locusts are shaped like horses! Perhaps miniature horses? They appeared to have gold colored crowns on their heads. Their faces were as men's faces....perhaps in shape? They had long hair - perhaps in comparison to their size. They had teeth like a lion's teeth. I guess that means long and sharp, designed for tearing flesh. My guess is, they not only sting, but bite also - but John did not mention this. Finally, they had tails like a scorpion with a terrible sting.

So do we believe this or not? No one has ever seen such a locust, but these come out of hell. Perhaps they were created for just this one time. This is written in God's word. It is truth. But it is only as John described what he saw. I think the main point is not exactly what they look like, but the fact that they WILL come out and WILL sting people and torment them. My guess is, they will cause great fear, as well as torture.

Jack, there is not even a tiny hint in Revelation that this will not be PHYSICAL torture from a real sting. To imagine it is some vague reference to deception is simply not believing the scripture. These things STING and with that sting torture people.

LAMAD

Demons my true friend and more demons to even a higher level of more deceptive demons in Rev. chapter 9. :idea:

Old Jack
 
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iamlamad

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Not even the slightest possibility that this is a true statement.

Actually, it IS a true statement. Now you have shown the world just how little you understand the book of Revelation.

Please note that John used NUMBERs for sequencing in the seals (1-7) then in the trumpets (1-7) in the vials (1-7) and in the woes (1-3). Then used the words "after this" twice. And "after" (as a sequencing word) 7 times.

And after seeing all this for sequencing, you imagine John did not write Chronologically?

I have an axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL be proven wrong.

If you imagine that something is out of sequence, please SHOW US. Just be prepared to be proven wrong.

Please keep in mind that from chapter 11 to the end of the 70th week, John has 6 different time lines going at once - all parallel time lines:

The timeline of:
42 months of trampling the city of Jerusalem
1260 days of testifying by the two witnesses
1260 days of fleeing
3 1/2 years of supernatural protection and feeding.
42 months of authority given to the Beast.

Then the general narrative of John's writing as He sees visions unfold, from the trumpet judgments to the midpoint events to the vials and then on past the end of the 70th week to Jesus' Return on the white horse.

Next, there are some exceptions to Axiom above: John wrote some things as parenthesis, but did not have () or [] or {} in the Greek language for us to immediately know.

For example, Rev. 11:4-13 is written as a parenthesis. That part has NO bearing on his Chronology. Today we might call that a "rabbit trail" or a side journey off his general narrative. John takes us down ONE of the five parallel timelines - that of the 1260 days of the two witnesses testifying. But then comes right back to the midpoint where he was a moment before.

Another example is the first five verses of chapter 12. That also is written as a parenthesis. It is not about the midpoint of the future 70th week at all, but is a short history lesson of how the dragon attempted to kill Jesus as a baby. It was a look back in history about around 2 BC, while the general context of chapter 12 is at the exact midpoint of the future 70th week.

In general, what we read in one chapter will always come AFTER what we read in a previous chapter. For example, events in chapter 12 (after verse 5) are events that will take place one second after the abomination that divides the week. John did not do "flashbacks." He did not do "backpeddling." For the most part, his chronology is perfect, because it is God given.

Now, if you disagree, SHOW US what you think is written in the wrong order.

LAMAD
 
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iamlamad

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Like I said, Bible translations are interpretive, and will say anything one wants them to say, ie, let along when our Lord in heaven casts down "error's working" from heaven (Rev.8:7, etc.) upon those that don't have an agape for the truth (IIThess.2:10b-12). Hopefully no one has the truth on this thread thus we will be o.k. :confused:



Funny you said this, ie, I feel that I just got out of a washer's spin cycle on another thread a little bit ago. btw I do have a rock and spindle, but no staff to spin. ^_^ Appreciate you my friend :hug:



Demons my true friend and more demons to even a higher level of more deceptive demons in Rev. chapter 9. :idea:

Old Jack


Jack, if what you say is true (thank God it isn't!) words then have no meaning. Well, they DO: when we read that God loved this world SO MUCH He gave His only Son to die for us, these words have enough meaning in them to get people BORN AGAIN.

When God caused a writer to write a verse of scripture, He had ONE intent for that verse, not 100 different intents! If it is a difficult verse, we have to meditate and ASK Him. WE do not have the permission to take any verse out of its context. The real intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit, will be found IN CONTEXT. Jack, you can rest assured, one day little beasties will fly that will sting like scorpions - REAL STINGs - REAL PAIN that will cause men to wish to die. That is INTENSE pain. Their purpose is TORMENT. This is the INTENT of the author in these verses. We can believe it just as it is written.

LAMAD
 
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shturt678s

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Jack, if what you say is true (thank God it isn't!) words then have no meaning. Well, they DO: when we read that God loved

God erosed, storged, philioed, or agaped? One of these words have the true meaning, ie, lovy lovy, family lovy lovy, affection, or agape? Raise the bar at least a notch cause you do agape what Jesus did at the Cross I have no doubts.

this world SO MUCH He gave His only Son to die for us, these words have enough meaning in them to get people BORN AGAIN.

Which word and definition? :confused:

When God caused a writer to write a verse of scripture, He had ONE intent for that verse, not 100 different intents! If it is a difficult verse, we have to meditate and ASK Him. WE do not have the permission to take any verse out of its context. The real intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit, will be found IN CONTEXT. Jack, you can rest assured, one day little beasties will fly that will sting like scorpions - REAL STINGs - REAL PAIN that will cause men to wish to die. That is INTENSE pain. Their purpose is TORMENT. This is the INTENT of the author in these verses. We can believe it just as it is written.

LAMAD

Old Jackster
 
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iamlamad said in post 221:

John called them locusts. Will they be about the same size as other locusts? Probably. They can fly like other locusts. There appeared to be multiplied millions of them, hiding in a huge cloud of smoke from the bottomless pit. As far as we know, there is no physical opening to hell or to the bottomless pit, if they are separate places. But it appears this will be a physical opening that will allow smoke to come out. Along with the smoke, these locusts.

The weird locust-like beings in Revelation 9:7-10, and the subsequent army of 200 million weird horse-like beings in Revelation 9:16-19, could both be literal, and could both be seen by the world as "aliens" or "demons", when in fact they could both be animals which evolved or were miraculously created (at different times) on this planet millions of years ago. The weird locust-like beings are currently living, or are in some state of extended hibernation, in the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-3,11), which may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the bottomless pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). The weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). They won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

Because the weird horse-like beings will have to come from somewhere, and it could be difficult to keep 200 million of them hidden on the earth, they could currently be living, or be in some state of extended hibernation, in hidden underground bases somewhere away from this planet, such as on the far side of this planet's moon, and/or on the next planet out from the sun (they could even be a source of the mysterious methane emissions which have been detected in places emanating from beneath the 4th planet's surface).

The 200 million literal, weird horse-like beings of the 6th trumpet (Revelation 9:16-19) haven't come upon the earth yet (as is sometimes claimed), for 1/3 of mankind hasn't been killed by them yet (Revelation 9:18).
 
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iamlamad

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God erosed, storged, philioed, or agaped? One of these words have the true meaning, ie, lovy lovy, family lovy lovy, affection, or agape? Raise the bar at least a notch cause you do agape what Jesus did at the Cross I have no doubts.

Which word and definition? :confused:

Old Jackster

Jackster, I fear too much learning has made you ____ !

Can you understand that a 5 year old, with only a little understanding of communication can hear someone tell him or her about Jesus' great love for us, and how He died for us and with their small understanding can be born again? WOW! They had no idea that verses in the bible were Originally written in Greek! They had NO IDEA that "love" had three different words to describe it! That was in fact, totally unnecessary and unneeded information for a child to be born again.

A child knows mom and dad loves them: they have heard it many times. So they can easily understand that God loves them too.

How sad, when you read words in the bible that you cannot believe, you think or imagine they must mean something else - something you CAN believe. Jack, that is a very dangerous place to be. You need simple, child-like faith. When God says something, just believe it! Is that so difficult? After all, He DID say, "all things are possible!" Therefore it MUST be possible you can believe, when God tells you 1000 years, you can BELIEVE He meant what He said: 1000 literal years.

When God said little flying beasties will sting like scorpions, why is that so hard to believe? God said it - I believe it - that settles it for me. Have you never been stung? Is it hard for you to believe in people being stung? What is it you find hard to believe about this passage?

I wonder, do you believe Noah was real, and the flood was real? Did you believe in an axe head that floated? Did you believe that water came out of a rock? Did you believe God parted the waters of the Red Sea?

LAMAD
 
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shturt678s

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Jackster, I fear too much learning has made you ____ !

Can you understand that a 5 year old, with only a little understanding of communication can hear someone tell him or her about Jesus' great love for us, and how He died for us and with their small understanding can be born again? WOW! They had no idea that verses in the bible were Originally written in Greek! They had NO IDEA that "love" had three different words to describe it! That was in fact, totally unnecessary and unneeded information for a child to be born again.

A child knows mom and dad loves them: they have heard it many times. So they can easily understand that God loves them too.

How sad, when you read words in the bible that you cannot believe, you think or imagine they must mean something else - something you CAN believe. Jack, that is a very dangerous place to be. You need simple, child-like faith. When God says something, just believe it! Is that so difficult? After all, He DID say, "all things are possible!" Therefore it MUST be possible you can believe, when God tells you 1000 years, you can BELIEVE He meant what He said: 1000 literal years.

When God said little flying beasties will sting like scorpions, why is that so hard to believe? God said it - I believe it - that settles it for me. Have you never been stung? Is it hard for you to believe in people being stung? What is it you find hard to believe about this passage?

I wonder, do you believe Noah was real, and the flood was real? Did you believe in an axe head that floated? Did you believe that water came out of a rock? Did you believe God parted the waters of the Red Sea?

LAMAD

One big difference, children are correctable in the sense of IITim.3:16, both of us are absolutely irrefutable, and in trouble with God's grace, ie, I recognize it and you don't doesn't really help my situation at the moment. :blush:

Example: If God came down to you in Person and told you all Bible translations are interpretive, and for this reason not inspired thus we all need an Interlinear and Lexicon just for starters. You no doubt immediately would call a cop, and try to get Him locked up or evaluated at the least. ;)

If He told me that I would take my shoes off, and fall down to His feet, ie, see the difference? :confused:

Those critters in Rev.9 are higher order demons that God uses in the sense of IIThess.2:10b-12. No rocket science here. ^_^

Old humble pie Jack that needs to place himself below IITim.3:16 today no matter even if others don't :blush:
 
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Actually, it IS a true statement. Now you have shown the world just how little you understand the book of Revelation.


ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL be proven wrong.

If you imagine that something is out of sequence, please SHOW US. Just be prepared to be proven wrong.

Now, if you disagree, SHOW US what you think is written in the wrong order.

LAMAD

Okie Dokie

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


So let me see what page you are on........who is this multitude......Has the rapture happened? Or who are they?


Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

What is going on in these verses? Who are these people?
 
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Bible2

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Choose Wisely said in post 231:

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

So let me see what page you are on........who is this multitude......Has the rapture happened?

No.

Revelation 7:9-17 doesn't require those people will have been raptured. For in Revelation 7:9-17 the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Choose Wisely said in post 231:

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

What is going on in these verses? Who are these people?

Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

Revelation 14:19-20 can refer to the Antichrist's killing of non-Christians who won't worship him (such as radical Muslims, ultra-Orthodox Jews, hardcore atheists, etc.) being God's wrath against those non-Christians. Revelation 14:20 could refer to when they get beheaded by the Antichrist (say, while they are kneeling), their blood will shoot up from their necks like a geyser as high as a horse's bridle. Also, in Revelation 14:20, the city could be Jerusalem, and the 1,600 furlongs is about 200 miles, so that Revelation 14:19-20 could mean that the Antichrist's beheading of people who won't worship him will begin at Jerusalem and the surrounding region, when he sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

But when the Antichrist beheads Christians for not worshipping him (Revelation 20:4), this won't be God's wrath against those Christians, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:17).
 
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Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

Absolutely huge problem..........if we are not appointed to wrath ...... and that day will not overtake us as a thief........and you say Rev is in order.......how is it that the trumpets of wrath are going off prior to Jesus sitting on a cloud.

OUCH
 
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Actually, it IS a true statement. Now you have shown the world just how little you understand the book of Revelation.

And after seeing all this for sequencing, you imagine John did not write Chronologically?

I have an axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL be proven wrong.

If you imagine that something is out of sequence, please SHOW US. Just be prepared to be proven wrong.


Now, if you disagree, SHOW US what you think is written in the wrong order.

LAMAD


I'm on the mound and threw the first pitch. Did you see the smoke on the fastball and think it best to stay in the dugout?
 
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Choose Wisely said in post 233:

Absolutely huge problem..........if we are not appointed to wrath ...... and that day will not overtake us as a thief........and you say Rev is in order.......how is it that the trumpets of wrath are going off prior to Jesus sitting on a cloud.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b).

Note that nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the tribulation's seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. the fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
 
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iamlamad

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Absolutely huge problem..........if we are not appointed to wrath ...... and that day will not overtake us as a thief........and you say Rev is in order.......how is it that the trumpets of wrath are going off prior to Jesus sitting on a cloud.

OUCH

OF COURSE it will be "OUCH" to those left behind at Paul's rapture, which will take place as the TRIGGER for the signs of the coming Day of the Lord at the 6th seal. Please note how John ended that: "the DAY of His wrath has come."

So the BRIDE has no appointment. She took Jesus at His word (Luk 21:36) and ESCAPED His wrath.

Those that are left behind choose to make their OWN appointment. God will certainly allow that.

LAMAD
 
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iamlamad

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I'm on the mound and threw the first pitch. Did you see the smoke on the fastball and think it best to stay in the dugout?

It is Winter Bible Seminar....I HAVE BEEN in the dugout, but hearing and seeing wonderful things!

By the way, It was a sloppy curve ball, way off the mark. The catcher did not even catch it - too far off home base!:thumbsup:

LAMAD
 
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It is Winter Bible Seminar....I HAVE BEEN in the dugout, but hearing and seeing wonderful things!

By the way, It was a sloppy curve ball, way off the mark. The catcher did not even catch it - too far off home base!:thumbsup:

LAMAD

No, I was just throwing the ball in then. I was done. You should have been watching right before that. The fast ball was tough to see no doubt. It's going so fast it looks like an aspirin. You probably couldn't see it, but you should have seen the telltale trail of smoke and the grounds keepers ducking from the heat.;)
 
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OF COURSE it will be "OUCH" to those left behind at Paul's rapture, which will take place as the TRIGGER for the signs of the coming Day of the Lord at the 6th seal. Please note how John ended that: "the DAY of His wrath has come."

So the BRIDE has no appointment. She took Jesus at His word (Luk 21:36) and ESCAPED His wrath.

Those that are left behind choose to make their OWN appointment. God will certainly allow that.

LAMAD

Ok the rapture happens at the 6th seal. What is going here and what is this?

Rev14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
 
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Ok the rapture happens at the 6th seal. What is going here and what is this?

Rev14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

We all know that people used to harvest corn or other grain with a sickle, but not people. This alone tells us this part of the vision is very symbolic. Next, at this time in John's narrative, he is at the midpoint of the week. The days of Great tribulation have not yet started. Notice that there is a warning in chapter 14 NOT to take the mark. Of course God would send out this warning before the mark was established and before people took it. This is probably just before the false prophet shows up and before the image is built.

This part of the vision is symbolic of the harvest of both the righteous and unrighteous, and it is PROPHETIC; that is, it is showing the FUTURE harvest. Soon after this, millions of righteous will lose their head to the Beast. Notice John wrote, "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth." That is future from this point. Then, at the battle of Armageddon 3 plus years into the future, more millions of the unrighteous will die. It is very likely that Jesus will send out His angels for the parable of the tares on His way down, so that is more harvest of the wicked.

Therefore I see this vision of Jesus on a cloud as a PREVIEW of future events. IF you will note, one the angel's message is "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." Babylon, that is Jerusalem, will not fall until the 7th vial, so again this is PROPHECY; foretelling future events. The destruction of Babylon does not take place in chapter 14.

Finally, just because there are believers on earth during the 70th week does not mean the rapture has to be AFTER. The rapture is BEFORE the week, just as Paul shows us, but many are LEFT BEHIND. Many of these left behind were lukewarm, but when they see their great mistake, will turn to God with all their heart.

Notice what John wrote in chapter 12: "the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Why REMNANT? It is very simple, the MAIN LOAD was taken out at Paul's pretrib rapture.

LAMAD
 
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