The Seven Trumpets and The Seven Bowls

[Just The Facts]

This thread will look at the Seven Trumpets and the Seven Bowls of Wrath. In particular pay close attention to the fourth trumpet to the Kingdom set up and from the Fourth Bowl to the Kingdom set up. you will see that the exact same events are happening in both section.

Lets look at the seven trumpets and the seven bowls

Rev 8:7: The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8: And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9: And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10: And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11: And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

First we are told that a third of the trees on the earth are burned and all the green grass then the water is turned to poison and many die from the bad water.

Now

Revelation 16:2: And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. 3: And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. 4: And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5: And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6: For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7: And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. 8: And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9: And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Here we have the same events happening. While some will quickly point out that differing amounts of the Earth and sea are affected in the two verses, their claim that this proves that they are different events, at different times, does not hold up when we look at the rest of the verses in both sections. We continue with

Rev 8:8: And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9: And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Now

Rev 16:3: And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Well here once again the same event Angel acts sea is turned into blood. While some say one say 1/3 of living creatures the other says every……… BUT WAIT…… it says every living soul…….. fish are not living souls all men in the sea at this third Trumpet /bowl will die and 1/3 of the creatures in the sea.

Onto the Fourth trumpet

Rev 8:12: And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Now Rev 16 and the Fourth Bowl

8: And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9: And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Once again the same event. How can these two events be the same you ask?

Sun spots storms cause the sun to put out less visible light but increase harmful radiation by a thousand fold. So while there is less light there is more heat (radiation). If 1/3 of the sun went sunspot storm, the effects on Earth would be absolutely devastating. Men would be scorched by the heat of the Sun. Satellite communications would be lost. Electrical grids would fail all over the world. Depending on the length of the Solar storm electricity could be out for months.

Once again this is a Heavenly view pouring on the sun to make it dark and an earthly view being burnt as a result of the sun spot storms.

On to the Fifth trumpet and Bowl

Rev 9:1: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit 2: And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; [red]and the sun and the air were darkened[/red] by reason of the smoke of the pit.………………………………..5: And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Now the fifth bowl

Rev 16:10: And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; a[red]nd his kingdom was full of darkness[/red]; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11: And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

This actually the beginning of Great tribulation the first four are minor tribulation God always willing to stop if Christianity will repent.. The last three are the three woes or the Great tribulation.

Back to the Trumpets.

Revelation 9:13: And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14: Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. 15: And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. 16: And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

Now look at

Revelation 1612: And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

We see that in both time lines the next event is the massive army coming over the dried up Euphrates river.
Now back to

Revelation 10:7: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Gods Kingdom is set up on Earth. Now

Revelation 16: 17: And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Once again God's Kingdom set up on Earth

Revelation 7 through 11 and Revelation 14 through 16 describe the same main events in the same order but tell the events from different perspectives. While Revelation 7-11 speaks from a heavenly level. Revelation 13-16 speaks on an earthly level.

So while Rev 9:10 talks of how the Fallen Angel known as the Destroyer is released on the Earth and torments men five months with war and with grievous pain that they should long for death.

Revelation 16 tells us what physical events actually happen to the people alive at this time of the plagues released on a unrepentant world..

This is the truth of this matter.

 

[Time Watcher]

The 7 judgments of Revelation consist of the Lord's unmitigated wrath upon the earth

The first 6 trumpets will sound in rapid fire sequence on the same day and this will set up the back drop for the tribulation

The 7th trumpet will sound toward the end of the tribulation and will trigger the 7 clustered judgments specifically upon the kingdom of the beast and his Muslim followers to include the battle of Armageddon

There is no resurrection associated with the 7th trumpet as post-tribulation thinkers tell

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Time Watcher

Thanks for your thoughts.

It is very clear that at the very least trumpets 5, 6 and 7 are the exact same events as Bowl 5, 6 and 7.

I believe all seven are the same events told from two different perspectives

 

[shturt678]

Hi Time Watcher

Thanks for your thoughts.

It is very clear that at the very least trumpets 5, 6 and 7 are the exact same events as Bowl 5, 6 and 7.

I believe all seven are the same events told from two different perspectives

5th & 6th Trumpets blasting away today, ie, most deaf - my point: 6th Trumpet = / = 6th Bowl, ie, "out of the mouth of the dragon" (Satan himself) where Satan is loosed and the Sanctuary is closed.

We're very close to this where most see God's grace, yet it's his wrath.

Excellent thread but will fall upon deaf ears.

Just ol' old 'hearing' Jack

 

[interpreter]

This thread will look at the Seven Trumpets and the Seven Bowls of Wrath. In particular pay close attention to the fourth trumpet to the Kingdom set up and from the Fourth Bowl to the Kingdom set up. you will see that the exact same events are happening in both section.

Lets look at the seven trumpets and the seven bowls

Rev 8:7: The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8: And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9: And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10: And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11: And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

First we are told that a third of the trees on the earth are burned and all the green grass then the water is turned to poison and many die from the bad water.

Now

Revelation 16:2: And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. 3: And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. 4: And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5: And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6: For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7: And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments. 8: And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9: And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Here we have the same events happening. While some will quickly point out that differing amounts of the Earth and sea are affected in the two verses, their claim that this proves that they are different events, at different times, does not hold up when we look at the rest of the verses in both sections. We continue with

Rev 8:8: And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9: And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Now

Rev 16:3: And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Well here once again the same event Angel acts sea is turned into blood. While some say one say 1/3 of living creatures the other says every……… BUT WAIT…… it says every living soul…….. fish are not living souls all men in the sea at this third Trumpet /bowl will die and 1/3 of the creatures in the sea.

Onto the Fourth trumpet

Rev 8:12: And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Now Rev 16 and the Fourth Bowl

8: And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9: And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Once again the same event. How can these two events be the same you ask?

Sun spots storms cause the sun to put out less visible light but increase harmful radiation by a thousand fold. So while there is less light there is more heat (radiation). If 1/3 of the sun went sunspot storm, the effects on Earth would be absolutely devastating. Men would be scorched by the heat of the Sun. Satellite communications would be lost. Electrical grids would fail all over the world. Depending on the length of the Solar storm electricity could be out for months.

Once again this is a Heavenly view pouring on the sun to make it dark and an earthly view being burnt as a result of the sun spot storms.

On to the Fifth trumpet and Bowl

Rev 9:1: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit 2: And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; [red]and the sun and the air were darkened[/red] by reason of the smoke of the pit.………………………………..5: And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Now the fifth bowl

Rev 16:10: And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; a[red]nd his kingdom was full of darkness[/red]; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11: And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

This actually the beginning of Great tribulation the first four are minor tribulation God always willing to stop if Christianity will repent.. The last three are the three woes or the Great tribulation.

Back to the Trumpets.

Revelation 9:13: And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14: Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. 15: And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. 16: And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

Now look at

Revelation 1612: And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

We see that in both time lines the next event is the massive army coming over the dried up Euphrates river.
Now back to

Revelation 10:7: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Gods Kingdom is set up on Earth. Now

Revelation 16: 17: And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Once again God's Kingdom set up on Earth

Revelation 7 through 11 and Revelation 14 through 16 describe the same main events in the same order but tell the events from different perspectives. While Revelation 7-11 speaks from a heavenly level. Revelation 13-16 speaks on an earthly level.

So while Rev 9:10 talks of how the Fallen Angel known as the Destroyer is released on the Earth and torments men five months with war and with grievous pain that they should long for death.

Revelation 16 tells us what physical events actually happen to the people alive at this time of the plagues released on a unrepentant world..

This is the truth of this matter.

The trumpet prophecies have to fo with the great tribulation of WW II. For example, on D-Day, 200 milion horses under the hood were unleashed against Hitler the antichrist and the third of the earth aligned with him. The bowl prophecies, or the 7 last plagues, are being poured out now (especially skin cancer, red tides and global warming, and the Euphrates was dry on 9/11).

 

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 2:

The 7th trumpet will sound toward the end of the tribulation and will trigger the 7 clustered judgments specifically upon the kingdom of the beast and his Muslim followers to include the battle of Armageddon

Regarding "the 7th trumpet will sound toward the end of the tribulation and will trigger the 7 clustered judgments", that's right, if you mean the judgments of Revelation 16. For Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

Time Watcher said in post 2:

The 7th trumpet will sound toward the end of the tribulation and will trigger the 7 clustered judgments specifically upon the kingdom of the beast and his Muslim followers to include the battle of Armageddon

Regarding "the kingdom of the beast and his Muslim followers", note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Islam in its past and current form, insofar as Islam affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 4:171), whereas the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Islam affirms that Christ is in the flesh, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Islam affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Islam (mistakenly) affirms that no man can be God, whereas the Antichrist will say that he's God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Islam forbids the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), whereas the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam rejects Lucifer (Satan) as being evil, whereas the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-7), the Antichrist and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be a secretly-apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

Time Watcher said in post 2:

There is no resurrection associated with the 7th trumpet as post-tribulation thinkers tell

Note that the post-tribulation-rapture view doesn't require any resurrection at the 7th trumpet, just as it doesn't require that Jesus' 2nd coming will happen at the 7th trumpet. For the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19) doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). (It's like if someone said "It's time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 is over, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for some 2,000 years.

 

[Bible2]

interpreter said in post 5:

The trumpet prophecies have to fo with the great tribulation of WW II.

Actually, they've never been fulfilled, just as the preceding seals haven't. For the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) hasn't started yet. It will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. After this war, there will be a terrible series of natural disasters historically unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another erupting volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could destroy the eastern seaboard of the U.S.

If such a tsunami occurs, it could cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially-deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b). Sometime after that, weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit of the earth to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). The world could see them as "aliens" who had been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep underground. The locust-like beings won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

After that, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly fallen-angel) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) could (falsely) say that they're YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The 4 fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind completely desperate before its complete takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when the army starts killing 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought upon mankind. For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the Prime Minister of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

(And all of this will be part of only the first half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.)

interpreter said in post 5:

For example, on D-Day, 200 milion horses under the hood were unleashed against Hitler the antichrist and the third of the earth aligned with him.

The weird locust-like beings in Revelation 9:7-10, and the subsequent army of 200 million weird horse-like beings in Revelation 9:16-19, could both be literal, and could both be seen by the world as "aliens", when in fact they could both have evolved (at different times) on this planet millions of years ago. The weird locust-like beings are currently living, or are in some state of extended hibernation, in the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-3,11), which may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the bottomless pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11).

And because the weird horse-like beings will have to come from somewhere, and it could be difficult to keep 200 million of them hidden on the earth, they could currently be living, or be in some state of extended hibernation, in hidden underground bases somewhere away from this planet, such as on the far side of this planet's moon, and/or on the next planet out from the sun (they could even be a source of the mysterious methane emissions which have been detected in places emanating from beneath the 4th planet's surface).

The 200 million literal, weird horse-like beings of the 6th trumpet (Revelation 9:16-19) haven't come upon the earth yet, for 1/3 of mankind hasn't been killed by them yet (Revelation 9:18).

interpreter said in post 5:

The bowl prophecies, or the 7 last plagues, are being poured out now (especially skin cancer, red tides and global warming, and the Euphrates was dry on 9/11).

The world won't experience the 7 last plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation chapters 15-16), the last stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, until after the never-fulfilled Revelation chapters 6 to 15 have been fulfilled. At the first vial, an awful sore will appear on only those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). At the 2nd vial, the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3). At the 3rd vial, all surface sources of fresh water will become blood (Revelation 16:4). At the 4th vial, men will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic-pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future tribulation.

At the 5th vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Revelation 16:10). At the 6th vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together in an attempt to defeat YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so that the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12) (i.e. the vast armies of China, India, Pakistan, Japan, Iran, Indonesia) can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). Once they've gathered there, as only a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there (that's why the Bible doesn't refer to a "battle" of Armageddon). Instead, they will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

At the 7th vial, right before Jesus returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20), and 100-pound hailstones will pummel the earth (Revelation 16:21). The 7th vial will also be when Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed (Revelation 16:19).

 

[tranquil]

All numbers correlate, but are not the exact same, it is just a repeated pattern through out the trib period.

All numbers will happen simultaneously, yet to different factions during the trib.

The Laodicean "Christ figure" will not be the same as the Philadelphia Christ figure, which will be Christ. The Christ figure gives a loathsome sore to his enemies worshippers (like say, Netanyahu nukes Iran, Iranians will develop radiation burns/ loathsome sores. Or other Christ figures will give their enemies smallpox to give them loathsome sores. Etc. So, on the one hand, Netanyahu is an avenging saviour with hail and fire to destroy his enemies, to the victims, they get loathsome sores. That doesn't mean Netanyahu is Christ does it? Of course not, it just depends on your POV.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Hi Time Watcher

Thanks for your thoughts.

It is very clear that at the very least trumpets 5, 6 and 7 are the exact same events as Bowl 5, 6 and 7.

I believe all seven are the same events told from two different perspectives

You are correct.........Just the Facts

How is it that you have come to understand this.........meaning were you taught it by someone or was it just you and HS?

Do you believe in pre trib????

 

[shturt678]

You are correct.........Just the Facts

How is it that you have come to understand this.........meaning were you taught it by someone or was it just you and HS?

Do you believe in pre trib????

5th and 6th Trumpets blasting away now - 5th and 6th Bowl pouring out when Satan is loosed in his person, ie, absolutely different 'events.'

btw one can locate 'pre-trib. under the Fiction area in any Library.

Just ol' old 'fiction has to make sense' Jack

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Choose Wisely


Just me and the Holy spirit. When I was just beginning my journey I believed in pretrib. After time I came to understand that pretrib and posttrib is distraction that does not matter.

It became clear to me that Christianity has fallen and that I need to climb as high as I can over the noise of the city and warn everyone to repent or face the wrath. As is always the case such warnings fall almost exclusively on deaf ears. Everyone wants to believe that their church/belief does no wrong.

10: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11: The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12: I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13: And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so muh as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14: I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the oth r: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

We are all hypocrites we need to take the log out of our own eyes.

Christian sects all have two things in common....They are right and everyone else is wrong........and they need money give it now....

As I said I use to believe in pretrib because of verse like this

Lk:21:36: Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

But over time I came to understand that Jesus' Witnesses / Christians can be counted worthy and escape the plagues of Tribulations and yet still be walking on the earth witnessing the truth and begging the rest of mankind to repent and be saved. A sealed Christian can do this because they are Sealed in the Blood of the Lamb and just like the Hebrews in Egypt the plagues will Passover them and do them no harm.

Many are called few are chosen. May God grant me his grace and find me worthy to be his servant to witness the truth and perhaps be given the honour to turn my single gold coin into five for the Lord.

 

[shturt678]

When the inconvenient Truth has been replaced with a convenient Lie in most of the 'confessional' Churches, ie, what it thinks that it really is, what it only pretends to be, 5th and 6th Trumpets blasting - 1st five Bowl being poured out, ie, not the 6th with Satan loosed.

ran out of litmus paper again ol' old Jack

 

[interpreter]

When the inconvenient Truth has been replaced with a convenient Lie in most of the 'confessional' Churches, ie, what it thinks that it really is, what it only pretends to be, 5th and 6th Trumpets blasting - 1st five Bowl being poured out, ie, not the 6th with Satan loosed.

ran out of litmus paper again ol' old Jack

The fifth and sixth trumpet prophecies have to do with the great tribulation of WW II. Yes, the first five bowls have been poured out. The sixth bowl has also been poured out. The Euphrates was dry on 9/11.

 

[shturt678]

The fifth and sixth trumpet prophecies have to do with the great tribulation of WW II. Yes, the first five bowls have been poured out. The sixth bowl has also been poured out. The Euphrates was dry on 9/11.

Has more to do with a 'spiritual battle,' ie, not so much the spiritual effects resulting in physical wars, and etc.; however thank you.

Just ol' old Jack that never did like 'bowling'

 

[Choose Wisely]

Hi Choose Wisely




As I said I use to believe in pretrib because of verse like this

Lk:21:36: Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

But over time I came to understand that Jesus' Witnesses / Christians can be counted worthy and escape the plagues of Tribulations and yet still be walking on the earth witnessing the truth and begging the rest of mankind to repent and be saved. A sealed Christian can do this because they are Sealed in the Blood of the Lamb and just like the Hebrews in Egypt the plagues will Passover them and do them no harm.

Many are called few are chosen. May God grant me his grace and find me worthy to be his servant to witness the truth and perhaps be given the honour to turn my single gold coin into five for the Lord.

I am impressed that you understand about the trumpets and bowls. Most miss this. As for the rapture, you might check out the difference between the days of Noah and the Days of Lot.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Choose Wisely

I am aware of all the arguments of the pretrib position. Noah was sealed and then later came the flood where as Lot was removed and then came the destruction.

I think you did not really understand my answer. I was trying to see if you had further understanding than just the seven trumpets and bowls.

I will start another thread about who Christianity really is and then we can talk after you have read it. I have to warn you it will be a very, very long post.

 

[Bible2]

Just The Facts said in post 11:

As I said I use to believe in pretrib because of verse like this

Lk:21:36: Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

But over time I came to understand that Jesus' Witnesses / Christians can be counted worthy and escape the plagues of Tribulations and yet still be walking on the earth witnessing the truth and begging the rest of mankind to repent and be saved.

That's right.

Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture, for some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1), and others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Just The Facts said in post 11:

A sealed Christian can do this because they are Sealed in the Blood of the Lamb and just like the Hebrews in Egypt the plagues will Passover them and do them no harm.

Amen.

All obedient people in the church will be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4), along with some others, will be physically protected so that they will survive the tribulation's first stage (Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). Near the end of this first stage, the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).

After the 2nd stage is over, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while two other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14), and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage (Revelation 16). Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They're those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.

 

[Bible2]

Choose Wisely said in post 15:

As for the rapture, you might check out the difference between the days of Noah and the Days of Lot.

Note that Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of church to bring his 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

 

[shturt678]

Fact #1: Those that get through the Trumpets of delusions, ie, yesterdays, today, and tomorrows, are measured at Rev.11:1 and are the 'elect' from heaven. Bowls are a relevant, yet secondary vision.

Just ol' old Jack still looking for those earmuffs, ie, Trumpets blasting over 150 db for those tuned into the right frequency.

 

[interpreter]

Note that Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of church to bring his 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

As in the days of Noah and Lot, the bad guys will be taken, and the good guys left. I pray that I am one of those "left behind'"