Choose Wisely said in post 264:
If you told those 5th graders that in chapter 3 at some point there would be a door opened that could not be closed for some, and then if you told them in chapter 4 there were 24 elders with crowns, and if you told them that we know that 12 of these are apostles and then if you asked them given the information, when do they think these elders got to heaven, probably a handful of them would be smart enough to say in Rev 4:1.
In Revelation 3:8 the "open door" meant Jesus had made it so the literal church congregation in the first-century AD city of Philadelphia in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) could preach the gospel to the people living in that city (cf. 2 Corinthians 2:12, Colossians 4:3; 1 Corinthians 16:9), which evangelism could have eventually resulted in the salvation of the formerly unbelieving genetic Jews living there (Revelation 3:9b).
Choose Wisely said in post 264:
If you told those 5th graders that in chapter 3 at some point there would be a door opened that could not be closed for some, and then if you told them in chapter 4 there were 24 elders with crowns, and if you told them that we know that 12 of these are apostles and then if you asked them given the information, when do they think these elders got to heaven, probably a handful of them would be smart enough to say in Rev 4:1.
The 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) could be 24 chief angels, who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.
At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and the 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and the 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as human singers on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which are the words of a female millworker).
The 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.
Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).
Choose Wisely said in post 264:
If you told those 5th graders that in chapter 3 at some point there would be a door opened that could not be closed for some, and then if you told them in chapter 4 there were 24 elders with crowns, and if you told them that we know that 12 of these are apostles and then if you asked them given the information, when do they think these elders got to heaven, probably a handful of them would be smart enough to say in Rev 4:1.
Revelation 4:1 refers only to John the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers only to Paul the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
