I think I'm about to get kicked out of Catholic Answers forum for this thread.

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Virgil the Roman

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If one makes Traditional Catholicism look good or questions sundry Modernist or Progressivist practises currently in vogue in the Conciliar Church, one is similarly shot down and shut down rather quickly, as well . . .

:smoke:
 
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stevenfrancis

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On the verge of converting

To Eastern Orthodoxy, if that is even called a "conversion." My reasons for doing this are simple. I write this to invite discussion from others to tell me where I am wrong, if in fact I am:
I have been discerning this for a period of a few years. I struggled that if I left Catholicism, that Catholicism would "damn" me, somehow, as am apostate. Even though I know that if I was fully convicted, that should matter to me at all, it did.
Still after lots of study, it seems to me that the practice of Orthodoxy, IS the original, or certainly closest to the original, christian worship practiced by the Apostles and ECF.
Apostolic succession is important.
The EOC treatment of sin and redemption, and its teaching on original sin is far closer to what I have come to believe. (sin as "illness" rather than "crime.")
I do not know who left whom during the Great Schism, but I suspect they were never as organized as the RCC teaches. At least throughout the histories I have read that isn't the case. the difference between "primacy" and "supremacy" seem to have always been real, and it seems that Rome was "prime" but not "supreme."
Both Churches were under the leadership of the Apostles, and I agree that Peter was the rock. I don't know that all of the succeeding popes were Rocks or not. It seems imperial.
Still, my cradle catholicism is strong in me, and I am still struggling with this.
Thanks for reading and I would love to hear any comment.

Have you considered the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church?
 
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Shieldmaiden4Christ

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Have you considered the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church?

Why should he consider Eastern rites that are in communion with the RCC when he likes Orthodox doctrine better?
 
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That's my feeling as well. I hear people tell me that all the time. The only time I would recommend Eastern Catholicism would be when someone totally believes in papal supremacy and infallibility and yet adores Orthodox style liturgical worship. Otherwise, what's the point...

Why should he consider Eastern rites that are in communion with the RCC when he likes Orthodox doctrine better?
 
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Tallguy88

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stevenfrancis said:
Have you considered the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church?

Orthodox churches are far more numerous than Easyern Rite Catholic churches. There's not an EC for over a hundred miles from me. But there's an Orthodox 20 minutes away.
 
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Anhelyna

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This is what makes me really irritated when someone [ in this case StevenFrancis] comes in on a thread about conversion which is not in his Confessional Board and makes a suggestion like that.

RKO , as I've said earlier in the thread , has thought seriously about this , and at this stage the only person who should be questioning his decision is the priest with whom he is in contact .
 
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stevenfrancis

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This is what makes me really irritated when someone [ in this case StevenFrancis] comes in on a thread about conversion which is not in his Confessional Board and makes a suggestion like that.

RKO , as I've said earlier in the thread , has thought seriously about this , and at this stage the only person who should be questioning his decision is the priest with whom he is in contact .

I didn't intend any irritation, or to anger anyone. It was a simple single line question to the OP, and prompted only the fact that the OP is currently Catholic. There are many Catholics who are of the latin rite, who are attracted to the divine liturgy, and other aspects of the Eastern worship, and find that they are happy by a conversion of rite, rather than a conversion of faith. In any event, I certainly didn't expect to irritate a third party. I didn't intend to irritate anyone. May God bless and keep you,
 
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RKO

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Eastern Catholic churches are for people that are Catholic but happen to like Eastern liturgy better. He seems to like the doctrines of Orthodoxy, not just the liturgy.

This. As beautiful as the DL is, it's not as much about that as the doctrine of the EOC. As a lifelong post-Vatican II catholic, I can handle a dull liturgy with the best of them...
 
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stevenfrancis

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This. As beautiful as the DL is, it's not as much about that as the doctrine of the EOC. As a lifelong post-Vatican II catholic, I can handle a dull liturgy with the best of them...

Since the EOC and the RCC are working (in "Church time", to be sure), on reconciliation with sincere hearts, and I have faith that this may happen within my life time, may I ask what specific doctrines you are considering leaving Catholicism over? It's just that we've spent 1,000 years so far trying to get back together, (one holy catholic and apostolic Church). It has been my understanding that the doctrines which seperate are not nearly as numerous as the doctrines which bind. I defend the EO all the time to groups which disapprove of catholic orthodoxy. (Most all of the world). I consider the EO our closest brothers and sisters in ecclesial union. Pope John Paul II called the RCC and EOC the right and left lungs of the body of Christ. So I am NOT proselytizing, or trying to show any disrespect or anything. I even agree with a fellow who doesn't seem to care much for me that your discernment should be with a priest. My questions are for my own study, benefit and prayer in understanding what there is which still causes us to be apart.

The primacy of St. Peter as the 1st among equals in the bishopric? The Generation of the Holy Spirit? (I thought it was agreed by both Churches that the later wasn't sufficient grounds for separation, i.e. We could still be one Church, and the rites which would be the EO could still have a different understanding of the filioque.)?

I ask these questions in peace and with a spirit of charity. I will have no loss of respect should you leave us, as I have a deep and abiding respect for the EO in general. I'd just like to learn more about the sticking points which are perceived to still exist, and see if I can find reasonable scriptural and traditional support for unification. At the same time, I'll go back and read the rest of this thread. I arrived pretty late.

In the end, I believe that our Lord did indeed create one Church. I believe that we had that until the schism. I believe we will have it again. This doesn't even mean that anything of great value need be lost to either entity. I am encouraged by the ordinariate established for the Anglican communion, which brings her in as an Anglican "rite" of the Church. They still have the Common Book of Prayer.

May the Holy Spirit guide you in your discernment.
 
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Tallguy88

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stevenfrancis said:
Since the EOC and the RCC are working (in "Church time", to be sure), on reconciliation with sincere hearts, and I have faith that this may happen within my life time, may I ask what specific doctrines you are considering leaving Catholicism over? It's just that we've spent 1,000 years so far trying to get back together, (one holy catholic and apostolic Church). It has been my understanding that the doctrines which seperate are not nearly as numerous as the doctrines which bind. I defend the EO all the time to groups which disapprove of catholic orthodoxy. (Most all of the world). I consider the EO our closest brothers and sisters in ecclesial union. Pope John Paul II called the RCC and EOC the right and left lungs of the body of Christ. So I am NOT proselytizing, or trying to show any disrespect or anything. I even agree with a fellow who doesn't seem to care much for me that your discernment should be with a priest. My questions are for my own study, benefit and prayer in understanding what there is which still causes us to be apart.

This wasn't directed at me, but since I'm in the same boat, I may as well answer.

The primacy of St. Peter as the 1st among equals in the bishopric?

No problem with first among equals. But I do have a problem with Papal Supremacy, Universal Jurisdiction, and Papal Infallibility.

The Generation of the Holy Spirit? (I thought it was agreed by both Churches that the later wasn't sufficient grounds for separation, i.e. We could still be one Church, and the rites which would be the EO could still have a different understanding of the filioque.)?

Yes, this is another issue I have. First is the understanding of procession. It seems that certain Orthodox theologians (Abp. Kallistos?) can accept a "from the Father through the Son" understanding. Others disagree. I'm not decided on that point, but I am firmly against any notion that the Spirit proceeds equally and eternally from the Father and Son, or that he has his origins in both. As to the council of Florence, the Orthodox who were at the council were under duress from imminent Muslim conquest and do were willing to compromise the faith in hopes of receiving assistance against the Turks. It is notable that most of them later recanted their votes at the council.

I ask these questions in peace and with a spirit of charity. I will have no loss of respect should you leave us, as I have a deep and abiding respect for the EO in general. I'd just like to learn more about the sticking points which are perceived to still exist, and see if I can find reasonable scriptural and traditional support for unification. At the same time, I'll go back and read the rest of this thread. I arrived pretty late.

In the end, I believe that our Lord did indeed create one Church. I believe that we had that until the schism. I believe we will have it again. This doesn't even mean that anything of great value need be lost to either entity. I am encouraged by the ordinariate established for the Anglican communion, which brings her in as an Anglican "rite" of the Church. They still have the Common Book of Prayer.

The Anglican Ordinate is a joke. It's a Romanized form of Anglicanism that has barely had any success. If anything, it stands as a warning to the Orthodox NOT to reunite because our liturgy and theology will be butchered in order to fit into a Roman theological box.

May the Holy Spirit guide you in your discernment.

Thanks. I would add that the biggest obstacle to reunification is the role of the Pope in the Church. Most of the other issues stem from, or are caused by, this issue.
 
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Hi, I am not a Catholic but speaking of the Pope, I heard on the news that pope Francis said, "that atheists go to heaven". Maybe this would lead to some discussion. As scripture reads, " Christ is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except through Him. Christ is the only way. I believe of course, anyone can be saved whether atheist Muslim etc., but only through faith in Christ. I know the Pope is considered infallible when it comes to the tenets of the church. What do the Catholics think about this statement. Just do a search and many articles on his statement would be found.
 
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With all due respect, brother Steven, you really need to go hang out with the Orthodox to know what's really going on. Reconciliation with the Catholic Church will only happen when the pope renounces his claims to infallibility, supremacy over the Church, the filioque is dropped from the Creed, etc. If you read the stuff that went on at Florence, wow, hundreds of years ago, it really laid out the differences.

Orthodoxy disagrees with Catholicism a great deal on papal claims, indulgences, purgatory, the atonement, church polity, and their spirituality is so different. I have lived in both worlds, and I can safely tell you they're NOT as similar and fraternal as you think. When I became Orthodox, I had to enter a whole different mindset. I mean WHOLE NEW mindset. Orthodoxy doesn't have one universal catechism with universal precepts on everything. It also doesn't have "obligation" thinking in it. It also doesn't like the mortal vs. venial language in sins. It also sees the organization of the Church much differently. They also object to unleavened bread for the Eucharist for theological reasons. They see the road to salvation through different terms. Orthodoxy feels itself to be more relational and less legalistic.

Bottom line is, if you're waiting to see this reunion in your lifetime, I hope you live to be a few hundred years old at the very least! :p T'ain't gonna happen.

There is a reason the East and West split. It wasn't just the filioque, but rather a buildup of frustrations on the part of the East that took a few hundred years to simmer into a volcanic eruption. The stupidity that ensued on BOTH sides between Cardinal Humbert on the West and the Patriarch of Constantinople Michael Cerularius on the East, was the final eruption and end.....But if you really read about it, the Photian Schism was the precursor and the beginning of the end. When the Catholic Church mandated celibacy after centuries, that disturbed the East. But they continued communion. When the West stopped the venerable practice of using leavened bread and switched to wafers, that also deeply concerned the East, but they held on. Linguistically there was a lot of bad communication and isolation of thinking as well. But as the West changed the Creed without a council, and popes claimed to have a universal supremacy, things bubbled to huge levels and eventually blew.

From the perspective of the West, the Orthodox must accept papal domination/supremacy over the worldwide Church. Orthodox cannot and will not accept this. The Orthodox would expect the Catholics to STOP believing the pope is the only Chair of Peter and universal pastor over all churches. They would demand the CC drop their universal polity in favor of Eucharistic polity. That won't happen, ever. And as if things weren't bad already, Vatican II was a real lightning rod that caused more bad feelings.

Sorry to be cynical, but I think most people who say this prediction know very little about what Orthodoxy actually teaches, believes, and how they all feel. Even Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, who is quite an ecumenical type of guy, says that we SHOULD CONTINUE to seek reconciliation and fraternal relations with the CC....BUT he is careful to include that it can only happen when the CC returns to the Orthodox faith and its polity and renounces the last 1,000 of papal claims. Not going to happen.....



Since the EOC and the RCC are working (in "Church time", to be sure), on reconciliation with sincere hearts, and I have faith that this may happen within my life time, may I ask what specific doctrines you are considering leaving Catholicism over? It's just that we've spent 1,000 years so far trying to get back together, (one holy catholic and apostolic Church). It has been my understanding that the doctrines which seperate are not nearly as numerous as the doctrines which bind. I defend the EO all the time to groups which disapprove of catholic orthodoxy. (Most all of the world). I consider the EO our closest brothers and sisters in ecclesial union. Pope John Paul II called the RCC and EOC the right and left lungs of the body of Christ. So I am NOT proselytizing, or trying to show any disrespect or anything. I even agree with a fellow who doesn't seem to care much for me that your discernment should be with a priest. My questions are for my own study, benefit and prayer in understanding what there is which still causes us to be apart.

The primacy of St. Peter as the 1st among equals in the bishopric? The Generation of the Holy Spirit? (I thought it was agreed by both Churches that the later wasn't sufficient grounds for separation, i.e. We could still be one Church, and the rites which would be the EO could still have a different understanding of the filioque.)?

I ask these questions in peace and with a spirit of charity. I will have no loss of respect should you leave us, as I have a deep and abiding respect for the EO in general. I'd just like to learn more about the sticking points which are perceived to still exist, and see if I can find reasonable scriptural and traditional support for unification. At the same time, I'll go back and read the rest of this thread. I arrived pretty late.

In the end, I believe that our Lord did indeed create one Church. I believe that we had that until the schism. I believe we will have it again. This doesn't even mean that anything of great value need be lost to either entity. I am encouraged by the ordinariate established for the Anglican communion, which brings her in as an Anglican "rite" of the Church. They still have the Common Book of Prayer.

May the Holy Spirit guide you in your discernment.
 
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