1. Millions of beliefs put into boxes, only one saves.
2. Pick a box
3. Wrong box, BURN!!!
1. Millions of beliefs put into boxes, only one saves.
2. Pick a box
3. Wrong box, BURN!!!
I said each obstacle could be removed. This is necessarily true by the definition of omnipotence. I never said that such a being would remove each obstacle.Unknowable to you? Yes. You keep making these knowledge claims, "given an all powerful being each obstacle could be systematically removed" and yet you have no idea if that is the case. It's not to say that can't do that, it's just you fail to throw free will into the probability equation. That is a self-imposed sanction on God's behalf. Also you go from omniscience to omnipotence failing to take both into account equally as God posses both qualities.
Not unless you believe Muslims are saved just as much as Christians are.Lastly, don't forget that Jesus is an important figure in the Koran, so it's not like they haven't heard about Him. Ever think that's why Muhammed was allowed to live?
On the contrary, you make my point for me: I have influenced their decision. In this case, the influence is minor, as I'm not going to whip religion out of them (unlike some of the more rabid theists out there, both in the US and the Middle-East). But the influence is there, altering their odds of their choosing the correct religion.I define it as Christians. Yes there are more Christians in the US than in Saudi Arabia.
So let's look at you for instance. You have rejected the message of the Gospel. Your decision now has impact on your kids for they will look up to you because that's what kids do. They will trust in you and take your word on faith and in turn their children the same. Your decision be it right or wrong has doomed your children and your children's children and children's children's children. This would appear to be what you are saying.But is that really the case?
Let's assume for the sake of argument you are wrong and Christ really is the Son of God. Throughout your children's lives they hear of Jesus and His message and now have their own choice to make and through those choices have the chance to correct your mistake. If they choose wrong the fact is they have chosen and it was their choice, not yours. You may have influenced people's decisions, but you do not make up their minds for them. They do.
My point is this, just because you do not have absolute freedom of choice, does not mean you do not have freedom of choice in most aspects of your life, particularly when it comes to religion. The fact is that in your life your you will face a monstrous amount of choices and you will make right choices and wrong choices, but you made the choice and you must accept responsibility for your choices.
No it doesn't, just because you have influence in your life does not mean the ultimate decision isn't yours. It is.
I'm "labouring" under what other Christians have told me. I'm naturally going to assume the standard set of beliefs (eternal suffering in Hell, etc), so if you believe something non-standard, you're going to need to point that out.Even the saved eventually go to 'hell', the grave. You are laboring under the false belief that the unsaved still receive eternal life in torment. The wages of (unrepented, unforgiven) sin is death, not eternal life in torment.
In other words you don't 'wake up dead'. You just don't wake up.
Then what happens to those who aren't called?God offers those he is calling that choice. Those not called are not offered the choice to believe and repent. And not everyone who is called makes the choice to believe, i.e. "Many are called but few are chosen."
I don't see that anywhere in the text . "Let us build a tower that reaches to the heavens" sounds like an idiom, not a genuine desire to reach Heaven, and their stated goal is to "make a name" for themselves, not to reach God. So, not only is it baffling that God would confound human endeavour by creating this fragmentation of language, he, by your own words, damns us by doing so: instead of being in one mind about God, we have many different religions, only one of which won't lead to Hell.Every step of the technological process is just a step. "Come let us brick bricks", is not hard, "Come let us build a tower with those bricks", is just the next step. The scientific revolution that rebuilt our own world in but a few centuries is similarly a system of easy steps, one thing leading to another to another, until the moon and Mars and the extents of the solar system have all been traversed on step at a time.
Technological thinking is not just about how easy any of the steps are. They are all easy, and something very complicated arises one step at a time.
What is involved is the mindset itself that sees technology as the highest good, as a means of reaching God, who is by definition that highest good.
I've always wondered about the accuracy of that phrase, "who would give up his own life". He didn't: Jesus is alive and well, sitting at the right hand of God.Some Christians speak of the assurance of once saved, always saved. Others speak of working out one's salvation in fear and trembling.
Frankly, I have no special knowledge as to which is true. What God has given me though, is an insight into his nature where he is the kind of person who would give up his own life for the life of even the gravest of sinners. There really ought to be some kind of assurance in that fact, for anyone who comes to believe that this is so.
Naturally. Are you saying asking questions is a bad thing?I think that I have already related that to you, although you are still in the mindset where you have to explain everything away before digesting what is being given to you to consider.
I find that difficult to believe, though: how, exactly, does belief become a prison? This may well have some psychological effect, but I don't see how it carries over to the nature of the afterlife, even as an analogy.Recall the parable, where merely by believing their God to be a cruel taskmaster, the servants sealed their fate to that kind of reality.
What you believe can become your prison, and what you believe can also set you free from any prison, even the prison of eternal death.
With regard to whether one goes to Heaven or Hell, you've said that a) you don't know who goes where, and b) someone culturally unable to accept Christ (e.g, a Saudi) would be judged on their heart instead. By scattering the cultures at Babel, you said that God created the religions and various ideas about God that exist today - this means that God allowed such cultural inhibitions to arise.Is that really what I am arguing for here?
I am arguing against the concept of a God who is a cruel taskmaster, who scatters and then leaves everyone to fend for themselves, as if their eternal fate was of no consequence to them.
When man's inherent evil necessitates God's action of dividing men into nations, he comes up with a different way of becoming a light unto the nations, lest they remain in darkness forever.
For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son into the world, not to condemn it but redeem it.
In the time before Christ, a premature development of technology into something where the whole world could be enslaved or destroyed was apparently thwarted by God. But as you note, God does not thwart every potential holocaust.
And so, now, we have arrived at a time where it is technologically possible to enslave or destroy the entire world, and we have arrived at that point one brick at a time, it might be added.
We have arrived at this point in time now, with the understanding that Christ has brought to the world, the idea that the least of our brothers are the fullest expression of God himself, that our highest good lies in the treatment of those who are least among us.
God does not thwart every holocaust. So I don't think that I am arguing that what we believe doesn't matter. I don't think that that is where my argument has been leading at all.
Believing in God is not the same as knowing God exist.
God is not wanting to get something from you like a; belief in Him, but God is doing all He can to help you to just simple accept His gift (Charity) as it is given (as pure charity).
Wonderful observation! You are looking in the right place to find God! You are suppose to meet, see, spend quality time with, be sympathetically listen to, be taught (experience/see/feel) with God living in and through true Christians.
Helping the needy and the suffering are opportunities set up for willing individuals to see, experience, receive, give and grow Godly type Love. If people are not witnessing Godly type Love one on one, eyeball to eyeball at their level; that is the fault of true Christians or the lack of true Christians.
This all fits the objective: If God is this ultimate Lover, than that Love would compel even God to make beings that could Love like He Loves (this Love of God is totally unselfish [a measure of pure Love] and thus is not for Gods sake at all but is totally for the sake of others).
The reason this Love is the most powerful force in all universes is because it compels even God. So to have this Love would make us like God Himself, so why does God not just make us with this Love and place us in heaven?
Mans objective seems to be to obtain and grow this Godly type Love to fulfill the mission (statement) of Love God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.
Our objective while here on earth is to just accept Gods gift as it was given as pure charity.
God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.
The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love ( he that is forgiven much will Love much .) God hates sin, but does allow it so we can more easily accept His Love (in the form of forgiveness the easiest way for us to accept His charity). The problem is not knowing that God exists, since a very small amount of faith is needed to help humans and knowledge of there being a God would only upset those that do not want the Christian God. The problem is our fulfilling our objective.
There are some things that God just cannot do like create a being that was never created and the one important to us is instinctively create us with Godly type Love since that would be robotic type Love. God will also not force his love on us since that would be unloving on Gods part (there has to be reasonable alternatives to make it a choice [the perceived pleasures of sin]). The easiest way for us to get this Love is through accepting it as a pure charitable gift. The problem being humans (due in part to the needed survival instinct) do not like accepting Charity from a Giver that paid a huge price for the gift.
What you say doesn't match with reality. People act lovingly with or without God. I myself am a person surrounded by love, and who feels a lot of love, and who acts lovingly and selflessly. Yet, according to standard Christianity, I'm going to Hell, simply because I'm not a Christian. That God would set up the system like this does not strike me as the actions of a loving deity.The easiest way for humans to accept Gods charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting Gods forgiveness we accept Gods Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) he that is forgiven much will Love much
Once we accept Godly type Love, we can truly Love and have the privilege and honor of Loving God (the forgiver) and others (Gods children) with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.
This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4).
Since God is Love and part of the definition of Godly type Love is unselfishness God is totally unselfish? If God is totally unselfish, He will do and allow all He can to help those that are just willing to accept His help fulfill their objective (Love). That all includes: Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kind, hell, evil, and even sin.
Will we know people do not like to accept charity especially from a giver that paid a huge price? People will try to earn the gift, pay back the gift, be more deserving of the gift than the next person or just say they got the gift without having to accept it. The easiest way to accept the gift is through accepting Gods forgiveness (this is after you have sinned) since forgiveness is charity, grace, mercy Love. AND Jesus has taught us he that is forgiven much will Love much
The problem is God wants us to be like He is (Gods Love is compelling Him to create beings that can Love like He Loves and made these beings for the sake of those that will accept His Love).
If we continue to refuse Gods Love and really do not want to Love unselfishly, where is there for us to go? Heaven is one huge Love feast so we would not be happy there and God wants us to be happy.
I don't see that anywhere in the text . "Let us build a tower that reaches to the heavens" sounds like an idiom, not a genuine desire to reach Heaven, and their stated goal is to "make a name" for themselves, not to reach God. So, not only is it baffling that God would confound human endeavour by creating this fragmentation of language, he, by your own words, damns us by doing so: instead of being in one mind about God, we have many different religions, only one of which won't lead to Hell.
So my original point stands, it seems: God himself, at the Tower of Babel, damned us.
Tower of Babel.* 1The whole world had the same language and the same words. 2When they were migrating from the east, they came to a valley in the land of Shinar* and settled there. 3They said to one another, Come, let us mold bricks and harden them with fire. They used bricks for stone, and bitumen for mortar. 4Then they said, Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the sky,* and so make a name for ourselves; otherwise we shall be scattered all over the earth.
5The LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the people had built. 6Then the LORD said: If now, while they are one people and all have the same language, they have started to do this, nothing they presume to do will be out of their reach. 7Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that no one will understand the speech of another. 8So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9That is why it was called Babel,* because there the LORD confused the speech of all the world. From there the LORD scattered them over all the earth.
I'm "labouring" under what other Christians have told me. I'm naturally going to assume the standard set of beliefs (eternal suffering in Hell, etc), so if you believe something non-standard, you're going to need to point that out.
Undoubtedly, but if God exists, why would he allow false religions to flourish? The Bible shows he's not above interfering with the world to prove a point (just look at poor Job), so why wouldn't he interfere with the creation of a new religion, especially when a charismatic individual is damning all those around him?
Would that mean that Christianity, too, is inherently flawed?
True Christianity, the underground church, (truly Christ like people) seems to be growing the fastest under severe persecution in Communist China. Up until a few years ago it was thought Christianity disappeared in Communist China since all Christian leaders had been taken away never to return. Yet we now believe there are as many as 100 million Christians in the non denomination underground Church.Then why allow things, and why do things, that so heavily inhibit people making this choice? The Holocaust did not help people become Christian, and neither does the existence of Islam.
Again you start with the wrong premise us to do. We need to quit doing and accept Gods help. There are lots of good logical reasons why humans have a hard time accepting charity (it all goes back to our needed survival instinct). We do not like taking charity from a giver that is making a hard sacrifice to provide us with a gift we totally do not deserve.And how, exactly, does God want us to do that?
Would you find it easy to have a pure innocent child accept a beating for a crime you did and fell totally deserve of the beaten?I don't see that as a problem at all. The problem is that people don't see any reason to believe such a gift is even being offered, let alone was paid for with a "huge" price.
Do you want a system where you earn your way to becoming like God Himself and what would you expect to have to do?What you say doesn't match with reality. People act lovingly with or without God. I myself am a person surrounded by love, and who feels a lot of love, and who acts lovingly and selflessly. Yet, according to standard Christianity, I'm going to Hell, simply because I'm not a Christian. That God would set up the system like this does not strike me as the actions of a loving deity.
I said each obstacle could be removed. This is necessarily true by the definition of omnipotence. I never said that such a being would remove each obstacle.
I'm well aware that could could choose not to, and that's my whole point: God could do it, but he doesn't, which makes him culpable for the damnation of those born into the Middle-East who never stood a chance, or whose chances were severely diminished.
The Middle-East is heavily Muslim. This arises from various phenomena, but primarily from Muhammad. Had God systematically eliminated every obstacle, Christianity would dominate the region. Instead, God allowed the area to be inimical to Christianity, making an individual born there far less likely to convert to the correct religion, and thus making him far less likely to escape Hell.
That is why God is culpable. By allowing such heavy indoctrination and cultural bias, God is culpable for the subsequent damnation of those people.
Not unless you believe Muslims are saved just as much as Christians are.
On the contrary, you make my point for me: I have influenced their decision. In this case, the influence is minor, as I'm not going to whip religion out of them (unlike some of the more rabid theists out there, both in the US and the Middle-East). But the influence is there, altering their odds of their choosing the correct religion.
Taken to extremes, such as in the Middle-East, their odds of choosing the correct religion are tiny. The choice is not fair, and is not free, as there are strong predictors of what your deathbed religion will be. Hence my question: if God expects us to pick the right religion, why would he allow the choice to get so skewed? How is it fair and just for people born in Brazil to be more likely to get into Heaven than people born in Saudi Arabia, by sheer virtue of the culture their born into?
Brother in your message there are some things which i feel are incorrect. Let me highlight them. First let me tell you that we Muslims believe that Bible(Injeel) was a word of God but after its revelation it was modified and tampered. So Quran was revealed as a final word of God which has not been tampered and can not be tampered. Its still in its original form.Islam exists because an angel appeared to Mohammed and told him of a gospel different than that in scriptures. He would have done well to have heeded Paul's warning in Galatians 1:
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.So we know there will be false "gospels" around until the time the Lord comes back and puts them to a final end.
Gal 1:6-9
That being said, Muslims themselves are not bad people by any means, just as those in any religion outside that revealed in the New Testament.
They do their best to strive for understanding for the things of God, and do works in hopes of pleasing God. This is good as motivation is concerned, but it will not save them. What they lack is the knowlege of what Jesus has done for them. They do their works to please God because they understand there has been a separation from God, but what they need to know is that their works will not make up the gap.
That god they are attempting to please is one who they see as sitting up there somewhere, demanding work upon work as an evil taskmaster, with no confidence in knowing if that god will finally discard them on a whim. This is a cruel fate. Rather the God of the Bible is one who does not demand such things.
Instead, he took on an additional nature, one of man when He came into the world as a baby. He walked in the Law of God perfectly all His days, then offered Himself on our behalf, that His perfection might be given to us, and the work of the Son was accepted by the Father, now there is no need to strive for Gods acceptance through our own works, but rather believe in the One who did these works perfectly already.
Welcome to CF. Please note that this part of the forum, "Exploring Christianity" is for a single non-Christian to make a thread, and then only they and other Christians can post in that forum. Also, your post could well be seen to be promoting a non-Christian religion, which is also against the forum rules.Brother in your message there are some things which i feel are incorrect. Let me highlight them. First let me tell you that we Muslims believe that Bible(Injeel) was a word of God but after its revelation it was modified and tampered. So Quran was revealed as a final word of God which has not been tampered and can not be tampered. Its still in its original form.
Second, we also believe in Jesus Christ BUT only as a messenger of God not GOD or SON OF GOD.. Verily a Muslim who doesnt believe in Jesus Christ is not a Muslim.
Third, God is not 'sitting up somewhere' or is an 'evil taskmaster' who likes us doing work all the time. In fact God is everywhere and within our own hearts. And the work that you are referring to, its actually the prayers that is the DUTY of a slave towards his Supreme Master for all the favors that He Has granted him. Plus God is not an evil taskmaster who may discard our prayers just in a matter of time. In fact in Quran He time and again reminds mankind that despite our sins He is extremely merciful and forgiving towards us.
[FONT=Times, Times New Roman]Say: O My servants who have transgressed against their own souls, despair not of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Surah az-Zumar 39:53)[/FONT]
When was the Old Testament "tampered with" since Christ does not come pointing out any error in the Old Testament they had at the time?Brother in your message there are some things which i feel are incorrect. Let me highlight them. First let me tell you that we Muslims believe that Bible(Injeel) was a word of God but after its revelation it was modified and tampered. So Quran was revealed as a final word of God which has not been tampered and can not be tampered. Its still in its original form.