Why does Islam exist?

[Wiccan_Child]

Matters of faith are not restricted to the empirical methods of science. It is a matter of the heart.

Hence why it may well be an insurmountable obstacle. How can I - and why should I - believe in the existence of God when I see no reason to, and when you tell me there cannot be any reason to? And this says nothing of a belief in the need to be saved, etc .

 

[Wiccan_Child]

It is important to note that God is the one that is responsible for the scattering, and he did it to prevent the drowning of the individual into a corporate mindset of group-think, as if the technological advantage of such a mindset might be able to allow us to build a stairway to heaven.

This seems impossible - isn't Heaven a non-physical place where the souls of the dead go, rather than a physical planetoid orbiting the Earth? Moreover, doesn't NASA, ESA, JAXA, and every spacecraft and satellite do more to reach Heaven than the Tower of Babylon?

As such, heathens and Christians and Muslims and Jews and atheist alike come to God on their own terms, and are judged accordingly. Christianity is the good news that Jesus conquered death, and thereby offers assurance to anyone who hears the good news that they no longer need to live in fear of this eternal death and damnation. We have been redeemed, as a free gift from God.

Then, why convert at all? If our sins have been forgiven by means of a blood sacrifice, why do we need to believe that it happened?

Be that as it may, God's judgement is fair. He does not judge anyone on the basis of information that they did not have access to, but on the basis of the information that they do have access to.

After the scattering of Babel, he created a special nation to be a light unto the nations, and gave his only begotten son to that nation, to light the way. We have been commissioned to be that light to the scattered nations, and only when the good news that Christ has conquered death reaches the far corners of the globe, will the world be judged.

That has several implications. First, if you don't send missionaries to a country, they'd surely only be judged on their good works, rather than their religious beliefs - isn't that a much better system? Second, if you don't send missionaries everywhere, then the world will never be judged, there won't be a rapture, etc - again, that sounds much better than the apocalypse, the 1000 year reign of the Devil, etc.

 

[laurent]

The first slide in the video states that, "[w]e have to have free will, otherwise we're robots". The simple response to that is... so what? It may be objectionable, but that doesn't mean it isn't so.
In the second slide, you ask, "s the organisation of the photons that determines my actions or the meaning I give to the organisation?" - to be honest, I don't understand the question. What do photons have to do with your actions?

it's related to the first slide when i say:
if we attribute meaning to an action that is anticipated, eg if the coin falls heads I jump, if it comes up tails I nod my head, how determinism would permit that?
my actions is not due to the photons which hit the coin and come to my eyes it is due to the meaning i gave to the falls of the coin

The third slide asserts that meaning comes from God. That may well be the case, but you don't offer any proof.

Yes but we can see that it does not come from us because it is not possible to create a meaning other than those were given to us

The fourth slide quotes John 1:1-5, followed by the claim that the "truth is written in the bible [sic]" - again, this is just an assertion, it isn't actually supported by anything in the video.

Once you see that meaning come from god , you understand that the words of Jesus are the truth because they came directly from god

 

[SolomonVII]

This seems impossible - isn't Heaven a non-physical place where the souls of the dead go, rather than a physical planetoid orbiting the Earth? Moreover, doesn't NASA, ESA, JAXA, and every spacecraft and satellite do more to reach Heaven than the Tower of Babylon?

Few people turn to the Bible for an understanding of science and cosmology. The Bible teaches us an understanding of God.
With that in mind, God would agree that this is an impossible way to reach him.

Then, why convert at all? If our sins have been forgiven by means of a blood sacrifice, why do we need to believe that it happened?

People believe it happened based on the evidence that it did happen.
People believe in it, through faith, because the believe offers assurance and erases fear from their lives.

That has several implications. First, if you don't send missionaries to a country, they'd surely only be judged on their good works, rather than their religious beliefs - isn't that a much better system? Second, if you don't send missionaries everywhere, then the world will never be judged, there won't be a rapture, etc - again, that sounds much better than the apocalypse, the 1000 year reign of the Devil, etc.

People being judged on their religious systems is your belief of Christianity, but not mine. People being judged on their good works is also not a Christian teaching.
Christianity doesn't teach either of those things. It is only about preaching the good news that we have been redeemed from death. Through dying he destroyed our death; through rising he restored our life. It is a free gift based in nothing but the fact that our Creator loves us more than he loves even his own life.
Believe that, and life becomes transformed from a life of fear and resentment, into one of the deepest gratitude. The burdens of life become light and much less onerous with this kind of understanding about our Creator.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Few people turn to the Bible for an understanding of science and cosmology. The Bible teaches us an understanding of God.
With that in mind, God would agree that this is an impossible way to reach him.

OK. So, if the Tower of Babylon was never going to work, why did God cause the scattering?

People believe it happened based on the evidence that it did happen.
People believe in it, through faith, because the believe offers assurance and erases fear from their lives.

But that doesn't answer my question: why do we need to believe it, or believe in it, or have faith in it, or whatever, in order to be saved?

People being judged on their religious systems is your belief of Christianity, but not mine. People being judged on their good works is also not a Christian teaching.
Christianity doesn't teach either of those things. It is only about preaching the good news that we have been redeemed from death. Through dying he destroyed our death; through rising he restored our life. It is a free gift based in nothing but the fact that our Creator loves us more than he loves even his own life.

So Jesus died for our sins, and since it's a free gift, I don't have to do anything - attend church, take the Eucharist, etc. I am saved.

Except, that isn't what's preached. Because I'm not a Christian, I'm not saved. So I don't understand: are my sins forgiven, or not?

Believe that, and life becomes transformed from a life of fear and resentment, into one of the deepest gratitude. The burdens of life become light and much less onerous with this kind of understanding about our Creator.

But what if I don't believe?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

it's related to the first slide when i say:
if we attribute meaning to an action that is anticipated, eg if the coin falls heads I jump, if it comes up tails I nod my head, how determinism would permit that?
my actions is not due to the photons which hit the coin and come to my eyes it is due to the meaning i gave to the falls of the coin

Indeed, however, that could simply be put down to determinism in your brain. A complex series of algorithms, certainly, but deterministic nonetheless. What caused you to assign those meanings to heads and tails could well be deterministic, no matter how convincing the illusion of free will is.

Yes but we can see that it does not come from us because it is not possible to create a meaning other than those were given to us

Sure it is. I can state that flipping a coin and it coming up heads means that God doesn't exist, and if it's tails then Ixyltharc is a great dragon floating in space. We can assign whatever meaning we want to whatever we want -you, not anyone else, assigned the 'head' to mean 'jump', and you did it by stating beforehand that you would, on a result of a 'head', jump.

Once you see that meaning come from god , you understand that the words of Jesus are the truth because they came directly from god

Well, let's jump ahead to the point where you've connived me of your argument, that meaning can only come from something other than myself. Then what? How do we go from that, to the truth of Christianity - and not, say, Islam, or Hinduism? Don't you need to demonstrate that the words of Jesus did indeed come directly from God? That seems to be another missing link in going from "where does meaning come from?" to "Christianity is the right religion".

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Right, but why not? Belief isn't a choice - I can't simply choose to believe the Earth is flat, or that Jupiter has miniature humans living on its solid core, or that Madam Curie was a time-traveller from the future. Why would belief be the criteria for salvation? Why not, say, "being good to the best of your ability"?

Virtue is self-rewarding in the hereandnow, but salvation deals with the hereafter. The problem many people have is that they want to be at the front of the line for 'heaven', which is reserved for those God chooses to be there, in this dispensation. Most will get their chance at salvation, but not now. Also, because the gospel is preached and published worldwide many falsely identify themselves as the elect, or firstfruits when in fact they are not. A more careful reading of the bible, and particularly the gospel message, will expain all this.

 

[SolomonVII]

OK. So, if the Tower of Babylon was never going to work, why did God cause the scattering?

That is an interesting question, and students of the Bible struggle with it trying to gain an understanding of the ways of God.
One answer would be that such endeavors are not just futile, but ultimately dangerous and put the whole history of mankind into peril.
The expertise that the Tower builders were developing would not have brought them to their intended goal, but that does not mean that technical expertise does not bring about massive unintended consequences all the same.
What might a twentieth century technology have lead to without first the advent of a humanistic mind frame, for example?
Well, with the waning of the Judeo-Christian ethos, and the advent of a more Stalinist/Maoist/Hitlerian totalitarian mindset throughout the world, we do not even have to imagine where this kind of venture leads.

But that doesn't answer my question: why do we need to believe it, or believe in it, or have faith in it, or whatever, in order to be saved?

It is not so much that I did not answer your question, but rejected the premise of that question, making the question itself moot.
Not all Christians have the same understanding of the faith.

So Jesus died for our sins, and since it's a free gift, I don't have to do anything - attend church, take the Eucharist, etc. I am saved.

Except, that isn't what's preached. Because I'm not a Christian, I'm not saved. So I don't understand: are my sins forgiven, or not?

Jesus has the keys to hell, and has opened the doors to that prison. That is the theological fact accepted by all Christians. The penalty of sin is death, and Jesus paid the penalty not for his sins, of which he had none, but for all sin.
That penalty has been paid in full.
It is a free gift, that does not need to be paid for again by attending Church, taking the Eucharist, or any other good works.
We cannot work our way into salvation any more than we can build a tower to reach it.

But what if I don't believe?

We all build our own prisons through our disbelief. There is the parable from Jesus in which the people described themselves as servants as a cruel and heartless taskmaster. So for them, that defined their own fates, real suffering under a cruel and heartless taskmaster.

That describes the world, without light revealing the face of God to us as one of radical love, such that even the love of our own mothers and fathers and friends cannot compare.

The cruel and heartless taskmasters are of our own making, products of our own imagination.

Emulating God, through emulating God among us, Jesus Christ, leads to a very different kind of reality for us.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

That is an interesting question, and students of the Bible struggle with it trying to gain an understanding of the ways of God.

One answer would be that such endeavors are not just futile, but ultimately dangerous and put the whole history of mankind into peril.
The expertise that the Tower builders were developing would not have brought them to their intended goal, but that does not mean that technical expertise does not bring about massive unintended consequences all the same.

What might a twentieth century technology have lead to without first the advent of a humanistic mind frame, for example?

Well, with the waning of the Judeo-Christian ethos, and the advent of a more Stalinist/Maoist/Hitlerian totalitarian mindset throughout the world, we do not even have to imagine where this kind of venture leads.

But building the tower wasn't a massive technological endeavour - you don't need anything more sophisticated than what they had in ancient Egypt. And, if God is willing to stymie human endeavours for our own benefit, why not start with Eden? Or, indeed, the Holocaust?

It is not so much that I did not answer your question, but rejected the premise of that question, making the question itself moot. Not all Christians have the same understanding of the faith.

So you're saying that not all Christians believe that belief/faith is even required? If that's the case, what it required? Or are there no criteria at all - are we all going to Heaven?

Jesus has the keys to hell, and has opened the doors to that prison. That is the theological fact accepted by all Christians. The penalty of sin is death, and Jesus paid the penalty not for his sins, of which he had none, but for all sin.
That penalty has been paid in full.
It is a free gift, that does not need to be paid for again by attending Church, taking the Eucharist, or any other good works.
We cannot work our way into salvation any more than we can build a tower to reach it.

Then why do Catholics place such emphasis on Mass and all the rest? If it's a futile, or unnecessary, why does the Church command Catholics to do it on a weekly basis?

But that's an aside. If there's nothing that needs to be done, if Jesus has done it all for us, then what's stopping, say, me, from getting into Heaven?

We all build our own prisons through our disbelief. There is the parable from Jesus in which the people described themselves as servants as a cruel and heartless taskmaster. So for them, that defined their own fates, real suffering under a cruel and heartless taskmaster.

That describes the world, without light revealing the face of God to us as one of radical love, such that even the love of our own mothers and fathers and friends cannot compare.

The cruel and heartless taskmasters are of our own making, products of our own imagination.

Emulating God, through emulating God among us, Jesus Christ, leads to a very different kind of reality for us.

I was more asking about the afterlife - why do we need to believe in order to be saved (though it seems that you don't think we even need to do that), and what happens to someone after death if they don't believe?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Virtue is self-rewarding in the hereandnow, but salvation deals with the hereafter. The problem many people have is that they want to be at the front of the line for 'heaven', which is reserved for those God chooses to be there, in this dispensation. Most will get their chance at salvation, but not now. Also, because the gospel is preached and published worldwide many falsely identify themselves as the elect, or firstfruits when in fact they are not. A more careful reading of the bible, and particularly the gospel message, will expain all this.

I don't see how that answers my questions, though. If you have to choose to believe, and belief isn't a choice, isn't there a rather fundamental problem?

 

[secondtimearound]

I'm wondering why God would allow other religions to flourish, damning those who happen to be born in those locations. Being born in Saudi Arabia basically means you're going to Hell, simply because it's so unlikely you'll convert to Christianity. Being born in the Bible Belt of the USA basically means you're going to Heaven, as you're more likely to be raised in a Christian household.

So I find it odd that God would allow this sort of thing to go one, rather than simply giving Muhammed an aneurysm and keeping the Middle-East as Christian as the modern USA, thus saving literally billions of souls.

Why would God allow sin at all to flourish then? Why just stop at belief in false gods? Freedom of the will is the answer. The funny thing is how you assume to know that taking care of Muhammed would bring these people into relationship with Jesus. Who's to say they still hear and reject the message only to worship other false gods? You are not in a position to make this kind of judgement. Also, in keeping Muhammed alive, who is to say that the maximum number of Christians wouldn't arise from out of that area of the world? Do you see my point?

Also, why is it that if you were born in the Bible Belt would you be going to heaven. Surely there are lots of nominal Christians and Christians who do not conform to Jesus' teachings, we see it in the way they act. It's not just as simple as you believe so you are going to heaven. You have to be cleansed as well (although this is a controversial topic I do believe that the "announcing belief so you get to go to heaven" train only works if there is no time for cleansing of your heart.)

For those who haven't heard the message of Jesus they will be judged on what is in their hearts. All you really speak of is the desperate need of evangelists and also how important our choices truly are as they can effect our kin for generations to come.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I don't see how that answers my questions, though. If you have to choose to believe, and belief isn't a choice, isn't there a rather fundamental problem?

God grants belief to his chosen ones. If you don't believe, you haven't been chosen. It's only a problem if you want to believe in order to get saved, but don't really believe in your heart. If you are sincere however and you pester God enough he will grant belief (that's one of the mysteries of belief, as well as a glimpse of the nature of God the father).

 

[SolomonVII]

But building the tower wasn't a massive technological endeavour - you don't need anything more sophisticated than what they had in ancient Egypt. And, if God is willing to stymie human endeavours for our own benefit, why not start with Eden? Or, indeed, the Holocaust?

Wasn't it?

So you're saying that not all Christians believe that belief/faith is even required? If that's the case, what it required? Or are there no criteria at all - are we all going to Heaven?

An example from the church or your significant other, the RCC denomination offers assurance that God is within the the Catholic Church; she has no special knowledge of where else God may or may not be found.
As for who spends eternity in heaven, I have no special knowledge of what names will or will not be found in the Book of Life.

Then why do Catholics place such emphasis on Mass and all the rest? If it's a futile, or unnecessary, why does the Church command Catholics to do it on a weekly basis?

As I say, the Catholic Church understands that her message is full of light and life. She is also very dogmatic in her message or mortal sins that lead directly to hell, such as not going to Mass.
Not all Christians, nor even all Catholics, not by a long shot, are so dogmatic in their claims.

But that's an aside. If there's nothing that needs to be done, if Jesus has done it all for us, then what's stopping, say, me, from getting into Heaven?

Only yourself.

I was more asking about the afterlife - why do we need to believe in order to be saved (though it seems that you don't think we even need to do that), and what happens to someone after death if they don't believe?

Other than Jesus, few if any people pass freely from this life into the next. I have no special knowledge of the afterlife either.
This life, here and now, is the life that we have. The emphasis Jesus places is on this life now, redeeming this world, raising this life up to the Kingdom that is at hand, right here and now.
The Good News is for us here and now, living our lives as they are today.
Some may say, "Believe it, or else"!
I am saying, "believe it and you will be free".
Blessed indeed are those who believe without seeing.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

God grants belief to his chosen ones. If you don't believe, you haven't been chosen. It's only a problem if you want to believe in order to get saved, but don't really believe in your heart. If you are sincere however and you pester God enough he will grant belief (that's one of the mysteries of belief, as well as a glimpse of the nature of God the father).

So, since only God can allow someone to believe by deigned to include them among his chosen, doesn't that mean that no one who isn't saved is actually guilty of anything? If we can't choose to be saved, why do we go to Hell? If there's nothing we can do, isn't it a little unfair to let us go to Hell?

If salvation is attained through belief, and belief is granted only by the will of God, my damnation is a result of God, not me. There's no free choice involved at all.

So, why do most Christians emphasise that you do have to choose to believe to be saved?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Wasn't it?

It was a tower. Towers are easy.

An example from the church or your significant other, the RCC denomination offers assurance that God is within the the Catholic Church; she has no special knowledge of where else God may or may not be found.
As for who spends eternity in heaven, I have no special knowledge of what names will or will not be found in the Book of Life.

Not even your own?

Only yourself.

How, though?

Other than Jesus, few if any people pass freely from this life into the next. I have no special knowledge of the afterlife either.
This life, here and now, is the life that we have. The emphasis Jesus places is on this life now, redeeming this world, raising this life up to the Kingdom that is at hand, right here and now.
The Good News is for us here and now, living our lives as they are today.
Some may say, "Believe it, or else"!
I am saying, "believe it and you will be free".
Blessed indeed are those who believe without seeing.

And yet, you seem to be arguing that it doesn't actually matter. That being or not being a Christian has no effect, especially on one's immortal soul

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Why would God allow sin at all to flourish then? Why just stop at belief in false gods? Freedom of the will is the answer. The funny thing is how you assume to know that taking care of Muhammed would bring these people into relationship with Jesus. Who's to say they still hear and reject the message only to worship other false gods? You are not in a position to make this kind of judgement. Also, in keeping Muhammed alive, who is to say that the maximum number of Christians wouldn't arise from out of that area of the world? Do you see my point?

That the future is unknowable? Yes. However, given an all-powerful being, each obstacle could be systematically removed, leading to a very pro-Christian environment in the Middle-East.

What I'm driving at in this thread is the idea that Muhammed created a religion, and centuries later there is now a extremely heavy Islamic presence in the Middle-East. This results in it being much less likely that someone born there will convert to Christianity: they do not have the freedom of choice that you think they have.

So, if God values free will so much that he's willing to let (say) the Holocaust happen, why does he allow such blatant obfuscation of free decision?

Also, why is it that if you were born in the Bible Belt would you be going to heaven. Surely there are lots of nominal Christians and Christians who do not conform to Jesus' teachings, we see it in the way they act. It's not just as simple as you believe so you are going to heaven. You have to be cleansed as well (although this is a controversial topic I do believe that the "announcing belief so you get to go to heaven" train only works if there is no time for cleansing of your heart.)

Nonetheless, there are more True Christians (however you decide to define the term) in the US and South America than in Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, wouldn't you say? Just as there are more Jews in Israel, atheists in Sweden, Buddhists in Tibet, etc.

For those who haven't heard the message of Jesus they will be judged on what is in their hearts. All you really speak of is the desperate need of evangelists and also how important our choices truly are as they can effect our kin for generations to come.

Exactly. They effect out kin for generations. That interferes with free will, and the freedom of choice, that is apparently so very highly valued to God.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So, since only God can allow someone to believe by deigned to include them among his chosen, doesn't that mean that no one who isn't saved is actually guilty of anything? If we can't choose to be saved, why do we go to Hell? If there's nothing we can do, isn't it a little unfair to let us go to Hell?

If salvation is attained through belief, and belief is granted only by the will of God, my damnation is a result of God, not me. There's no free choice involved at all.

]

Even the saved eventually go to 'hell', the grave. You are laboring under the false belief that the unsaved still receive eternal life in torment. The wages of (unrepented, unforgiven) sin is death, not eternal life in torment.

In other words you don't 'wake up dead'. You just don't wake up.

So, why do most Christians emphasise that you do have to choose to believe to be saved?

God offers those he is calling that choice. Those not called are not offered the choice to believe and repent. And not everyone who is called makes the choice to believe, i.e. "Many are called but few are chosen."

 

[SolomonVII]

It was a tower. Towers are easy.

Every step of the technological process is just a step. "Come let us brick bricks", is not hard, "Come let us build a tower with those bricks", is just the next step. The scientific revolution that rebuilt our own world in but a few centuries is similarly a system of easy steps, one thing leading to another to another, until the moon and Mars and the extents of the solar system have all been traversed on step at a time.
Technological thinking is not just about how easy any of the steps are. They are all easy, and something very complicated arises one step at a time.
What is involved is the mindset itself that sees technology as the highest good, as a means of reaching God, who is by definition that highest good.

Not even your own?

Some Christians speak of the assurance of once saved, always saved. Others speak of working out one's salvation in fear and trembling.
Frankly, I have no special knowledge as to which is true. What God has given me though, is an insight into his nature where he is the kind of person who would give up his own life for the life of even the gravest of sinners. There really ought to be some kind of assurance in that fact, for anyone who comes to believe that this is so.

How, though?

I think that I have already related that to you, although you are still in the mindset where you have to explain everything away before digesting what is being given to you to consider. Recall the parable, where merely by believing their God to be a cruel taskmaster, the servants sealed their fate to that kind of reality.
What you believe can become your prison, and what you believe can also set you free from any prison, even the prison of eternal death.

And yet, you seem to be arguing that it doesn't actually matter. That being or not being a Christian has no effect, especially on one's immortal soul.

Is that really what I am arguing for here?
I am arguing against the concept of a God who is a cruel taskmaster, who scatters and then leaves everyone to fend for themselves, as if their eternal fate was of no consequence to them.
When man's inherent evil necessitates God's action of dividing men into nations, he comes up with a different way of becoming a light unto the nations, lest they remain in darkness forever.

For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son into the world, not to condemn it but redeem it.

In the time before Christ, a premature development of technology into something where the whole world could be enslaved or destroyed was apparently thwarted by God. But as you note, God does not thwart every potential holocaust.
And so, now, we have arrived at a time where it is technologically possible to enslave or destroy the entire world, and we have arrived at that point one brick at a time, it might be added.
We have arrived at this point in time now, with the understanding that Christ has brought to the world, the idea that the least of our brothers are the fullest expression of God himself, that our highest good lies in the treatment of those who are least among us.

God does not thwart every holocaust. So I don't think that I am arguing that what we believe doesn't matter. I don't think that that is where my argument has been leading at all.

 

[secondtimearound]

That the future is unknowable? Yes. However, given an all-powerful being, each obstacle could be systematically removed, leading to a very pro-Christian environment in the Middle-East.

What I'm driving at in this thread is the idea that Muhammed created a religion, and centuries later there is now a extremely heavy Islamic presence in the Middle-East. This results in it being much less likely that someone born there will convert to Christianity: they do not have the freedom of choice that you think they have.

So, if God values free will so much that he's willing to let (say) the Holocaust happen, why does he allow such blatant obfuscation of free decision?

Unknowable to you? Yes. You keep making these knowledge claims, "given an all powerful being each obstacle could be systematically removed" and yet you have no idea if that is the case. It's not to say that can't do that, it's just you fail to throw free will into the probability equation. That is a self-imposed sanction on God's behalf. Also you go from omniscience to omnipotence failing to take both into account equally as God posses both qualities.

You just appear to have a belief that you are omniscient. It could very-well be that in the environment of the Middle East that had Muhammed not become the great profit Muslims believe him to be that it would have given rise to even more brutal regimes, keeping more people from receiving the message. Like I said before, you are not in a position to make this call.

What you are positing is a God that manipulates us into what He wants. What part of God wants free beings that come to Him freely that you can't seem to understand? And for your question, you answer it before you finish your sentence.

Nonetheless, there are more True Christians (however you decide to define the term) in the US and South America than in Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, wouldn't you say? Just as there are more Jews in Israel, atheists in Sweden, Buddhists in Tibet, etc.

I define it as Christians. Yes there are more Christians in the US than in Saudi Arabia.

So let's look at you for instance. You have rejected the message of the Gospel. Your decision now has impact on your kids for they will look up to you because that's what kids do. They will trust in you and take your word on faith and in turn their children the same. Your decision be it right or wrong has doomed your children and your children's children and children's children's children. This would appear to be what you are saying. But is that really the case?

Let's assume for the sake of argument you are wrong and Christ really is the Son of God. Throughout your children's lives they hear of Jesus and His message and now have their own choice to make and through those choices have the chance to correct your mistake. If they choose wrong the fact is they have chosen and it was their choice, not yours. You may have influenced people's decisions, but you do not make up their minds for them. They do.

My point is this, just because you do not have absolute freedom of choice, does not mean you do not have freedom of choice in most aspects of your life, particularly when it comes to religion. The fact is that in your life your you will face a monstrous amount of choices and you will make right choices and wrong choices, but you made the choice and you must accept responsibility for your choices.

Lastly, don't forget that Jesus is an important figure in the Koran, so it's not like they haven't heard about Him. Ever think that's why Muhammed was allowed to live?

Exactly. They effect out kin for generations. That interferes with free will, and the freedom of choice, that is apparently so very highly valued to God.

No it doesn't, just because you have influence in your life does not mean the ultimate decision isn't yours. It is.

 

[bling]

That seems dubious. I can think of any number of improvements to humanity's quality of life without removing free will. In any case, if God wants us to believe, and is willing and able to interfere with worldly events, why not simply give Muhammed an aneurysm and save billions of souls?

Believing in God is not the same as knowing God exist.

God is not wanting to “get” something from you like a; belief in Him, but God is doing all He can to help you to just simple accept His gift (Charity) as it is given (as pure charity).

Which is? Personally, I'd rather God busy himself in helping the needy and the suffering.

Wonderful observation! You are looking in the right place to find God! You are suppose to meet, see, spend quality time with, be sympathetically listen to, be taught (experience/see/feel) with God living in and through true Christians.
“Helping the needy and the suffering” are opportunities set up for willing individuals to see, experience, receive, give and grow Godly type Love. If people are not witnessing Godly type Love one on one, eyeball to eyeball at their level; that is the fault of true Christians or the lack of true Christians.
This all fits the objective: If God is this ultimate Lover, than that “Love” would compel even God to make beings that could Love like He Loves (this “Love of God” is totally unselfish [a measure of pure Love] and thus is not for God’s sake at all but is totally for the sake of others).
The reason this “Love” is the most powerful force in all universes is because it compels even God. So to have this Love would make us like God Himself, so why does God not just make us with this Love and place us in heaven?
Man’s objective seems to be to obtain and grow this Godly type Love to fulfill the mission (statement) of Love God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.
Our “objective” while here on earth is to just accept God’s gift as it was given as pure charity.
God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.
The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much….) God hates sin, but does allow it so we can more easily accept His Love (in the form of forgiveness the easiest way for us to accept His charity). The problem is not knowing that God exists, since a very small amount of faith is needed to help humans and knowledge of there being a God would only upset those that do not want the Christian God. The problem is our fulfilling our objective.
There are some things that God just cannot do like create a being that was never created and the one important to us is instinctively create us with Godly type Love since that would be robotic type Love. God will also not force his love on us since that would be unloving on God’s part (there has to be reasonable alternatives to make it a choice [the perceived pleasures of sin]). The easiest way for us to get this Love is through accepting it as a pure charitable gift. The problem being humans (due in part to the needed survival instinct) do not like accepting Charity from a Giver that paid a huge price for the gift.
The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting God’s forgiveness we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”
Once we accept Godly type Love, we can truly Love and have the privilege and honor of Loving God (the forgiver) and others (God’s children) with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus’ words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4).

Since God is “Love” and part of the definition of Godly type Love is unselfishness God is totally unselfish? If God is totally unselfish, He will do and allow all He can to help those that are just willing to accept His help fulfill their objective (Love). That “all” includes: Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kind, hell, evil, and even sin.
Will we know people do not like to accept charity especially from a giver that paid a huge price? People will try to earn the gift, pay back the gift, be more deserving of the gift than the next person or just say they got the gift without having to accept it. The easiest way to accept the gift is through accepting God’s forgiveness (this is after you have sinned) since forgiveness is charity, grace, mercy Love. AND Jesus has taught us “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”
The problem is God wants us to be like He is (God’s Love is compelling Him to create beings that can Love like He Loves and made these beings for the sake of those that will accept His Love).
If we continue to refuse God’s Love and really do not want to Love unselfishly, where is there for us to go? Heaven is one huge Love feast so we would not be happy there and God wants us to be happy.