Nails in the Coffin of Pre-Trib

[LinkH]

Warning: If you read the scriptures in this message carefully, it may cause you to change your eschatology. For some of you, that may mean you face problems in your church or denomination. Please consider carefully before reading this message.

I used to believe in the pre-tribulation rapture theory. I was taught it growing up. Then, I began to study the issue in the Bible, and I could find no scripture that taught that the rapture would occur before the tribulation. Instead, I found scripture that directly contradicts the pre-trib rapture theory.

Read these verses and ask yourself the questions that follow. See if you can read this and still be pre-trib.

II Thessalonians 1
1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
....

4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:[/b]
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

II Thessalonians 2
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Let's look at these passages. Study the passage and answer these questions?

1. When does the church get its rest?

Answer: 'when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed form heaven.'

2. When does Christ take vengence on them that know not God and obey not the gospel?

Answer: At the same time, "when the Lord shall be revealed from heaven".

The pre-trib rapture has the saints receiving their rest 7 years before Christ takes vengence on them that know not God. Notice that Paul expects to get this rest as well. It makes sense to see this rest as the rapture and resurrection that occurs at Christ's coming. I Corinthins 15 tells us that are Christ's will be made alive 'at His coming.' Notice, that is at Christ's coming, not 7 years before it.

Also, notice in verse 10 what the day when Christ returns, gives the saints rest, punishes the wicked, and is glorified in the saints is called in II Thessalonians 2:10. It is called 'that day.' Several verses later in II Thessalonians 2:3, we see that 'that day' occurs after the apostasy, after the man of sin be revealed.

So, there we have it from straightforward reading of the text. The church receives its rest, and the saints are glorified when Christ returns. At Christ's coming, He also executes vengence and punishment on the wicked. Paul refers to this as 'that day.' 'That day' occurs after the apostasy, after the man of sin is revealed.

Any comments?

 

[Thaeoles]

I came to the same conclusion not long after my true conversion. I grew up in a church that taught pre-trib. Only recently have I dropped premill for Amill.

 

[Hentenza]

Thread moved to Eschatology from GT

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Warning: If you read the scriptures in this message carefully, it may cause you to change your eschatology. For some of you, that may mean you face problems in your church or denomination. Please consider carefully before reading this message.

I used to believe in the pre-tribulation rapture theory. I was taught it growing up. Then, I began to study the issue in the Bible, and I could find no scripture that taught that the rapture would occur before the tribulation. Instead, I found scripture that directly contradicts the pre-trib rapture theory.

Read these verses and ask yourself the questions that follow. See if you can read this and still be pre-trib.

II Thessalonians 1
1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
....

4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:[/b]
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

II Thessalonians 2
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Let's look at these passages. Study the passage and answer these questions?

1. When does the church get its rest?

Answer: 'when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed form heaven.'

2. When does Christ take vengence on them that know not God and obey not the gospel?

Answer: At the same time, "when the Lord shall be revealed from heaven".

The pre-trib rapture has the saints receiving their rest 7 years before Christ takes vengence on them that know not God. Notice that Paul expects to get this rest as well. It makes sense to see this rest as the rapture and resurrection that occurs at Christ's coming. I Corinthins 15 tells us that are Christ's will be made alive 'at His coming.' Notice, that is at Christ's coming, not 7 years before it.

Also, notice in verse 10 what the day when Christ returns, gives the saints rest, punishes the wicked, and is glorified in the saints is called in II Thessalonians 2:10. It is called 'that day.' Several verses later in II Thessalonians 2:3, we see that 'that day' occurs after the apostasy, after the man of sin be revealed.

So, there we have it from straightforward reading of the text. The church receives its rest, and the saints are glorified when Christ returns. At Christ's coming, He also executes vengence and punishment on the wicked. Paul refers to this as 'that day.' 'That day' occurs after the apostasy, after the man of sin is revealed.

Any comments?

The correct translation of 2 Thess 2 is the following. When you read it as it was meant to be read, the identity of the restrainer is obvious.

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.
2Th 2:5Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;


What did JESUS say the Tribulation is? When did HE say it began and when did HE say it ends and what did HE say happens afterward:


Matt 24:

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
...
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
... 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Do you see that?

1. Desolation of Israel (66-70AD)
THEN
2. Great tribulation
3. Great tribulation cut short
4. 6th seal of Rev 6 - sun/moon darken/stars fall
5. false christs/false prophets/false miracles arise


The reason the great tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect is found in Joel 2.

Welcome to eschatology!

 

[Bible2]

LinkH said:

I could find no scripture that taught that the rapture would occur before the tribulation . . .

Any comments?

Yes, just to agree with you that no scripture teaches that the rapture will occur before the tribulation:

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the coming tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31) of Revelation chapters 6-18. Jesus can't return and gather together the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church and the Antichrist sits in a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Matthew 24:9-31, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the world-reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-31).

When Jesus returns, after the coming tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30) of Revelation chapters 6-18, he will descend bodily from heaven on a white horse (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31, 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:27). Then those in the church will be resurrected or changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). Then the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to have a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and then marry the church (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before the church mounts white horses and descends back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he wages war against, and completely defeats, all the armies of the unsaved world, which will all have gathered against him (Revelation 19:19-21, Revelation 16:14-16). Then Jesus will have the devil bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then the resurrected and changed church, including those in the church who were beheaded by the Antichrist (the beast), will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

After the 1,000 years are over, the devil will be released from the bottomless pit and by deception bring about the Gog/Magog event and be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). At least seven years after the end of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel 39:9), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). After the great white throne judgment, God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1, 2 Peter 3:10b,13).

Then God the Father will descend from the third heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the new earth with Jesus and the church in New Jerusalem forever (Revelation 21:3, Revelation 22:3-5). In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) in which all of unsaved humanity will be tormented forever in fire and brimstone with the devil and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46, Isaiah 66:24).

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Yes, just to agree with you that no scripture teaches that the rapture will occur before the tribulation:

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the coming tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31) of Revelation chapters 6-18.

Stop right there. Who says Rev 6-18 is the tribulation?

Jesus said:

Matt 24:

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
...
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
... 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


When does the sun/moon darken/stars fall in Revelation, Bible2?

Rev 6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.



Therefore, the tribulation is OVER before the 6th seal, according to Jesus, Himself! What does come next is the Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord:

REv 6:17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[zeke37]

Warning: If you read the scriptures in this message carefully, it may cause you to change your eschatology. For some of you, that may mean you face problems in your church or denomination. Please consider carefully before reading this message.

I used to believe in the pre-tribulation rapture theory. I was taught it growing up. Then, I began to study the issue in the Bible, and I could find no scripture that taught that the rapture would occur before the tribulation. Instead, I found scripture that directly contradicts the pre-trib rapture theory.

Read these verses and ask yourself the questions that follow. See if you can read this and still be pre-trib.

II Thessalonians 1
1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
....

4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:[/b]
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

II Thessalonians 2
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Let's look at these passages. Study the passage and answer these questions?

1. When does the church get its rest?

Answer: 'when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed form heaven.'

2. When does Christ take vengence on them that know not God and obey not the gospel?

Answer: At the same time, "when the Lord shall be revealed from heaven".

The pre-trib rapture has the saints receiving their rest 7 years before Christ takes vengence on them that know not God. Notice that Paul expects to get this rest as well. It makes sense to see this rest as the rapture and resurrection that occurs at Christ's coming. I Corinthins 15 tells us that are Christ's will be made alive 'at His coming.' Notice, that is at Christ's coming, not 7 years before it.

Also, notice in verse 10 what the day when Christ returns, gives the saints rest, punishes the wicked, and is glorified in the saints is called in II Thessalonians 2:10. It is called 'that day.' Several verses later in II Thessalonians 2:3, we see that 'that day' occurs after the apostasy, after the man of sin be revealed.

So, there we have it from straightforward reading of the text. The church receives its rest, and the saints are glorified when Christ returns. At Christ's coming, He also executes vengence and punishment on the wicked. Paul refers to this as 'that day.' 'That day' occurs after the apostasy, after the man of sin is revealed.

Any comments?

you are right on the money Bro...

don't let anyone fill you with lies to believe differently...even if they say..."it's biblical"
'cause any teaching of the rapture happening before the end time events are through, is a lie!
some here actually twist scripture Itself!

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Just to add to what others have said, I want to say this to Pre-tribbers::::

There’s millions and millions of Christians in the world who think they are going to be raptured away at any time. Think about the potential for MASSIVE deception.

Think about a million Christians turning up at a televised evangelical event. Remember that humans have technology like Project Blue Beam (youtube it).

The pre-trib doctrine is VERY dangerous and could trip up a lot of Christians. Stay away from it.

When the tribulation starts. You will deny it has started. You may keep up this pretense for a while but at a certain point you will have to admit that you are in it.

Now, once you admit it, imagine how quickly you will lose faith. You will deny the name of Christ in the wink of an eye. Think about that for a little bit.

 

[Douggg]

The rapture is not going to happen post trib, because the Jews in Jerusalem in Zehcariah 14 are not raptured but escape through a valley created by Jesus standing on the Mt. of Olives.

The Jews at that time will be Christians because Jesus said he is not returning until they say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

So eliminates a post trib rapture.

Jesus instructed Christians to watch for he comes at an hour we think not. If a person rejects the possibility of a pre-trib rapture, then they are not watching for it to happen.

Doug L.

 

[NJBeliever]

Why is the spirit of this like competing sports teams? It really saddens me. "Nails in the coffin"?? Such pride...

I really think the rapture debates are becoming such a waste of time. It's filled with so much self-exaltation and an attitude of "my team is better than yours" I rarely see the fruits of the spirit in any of it. And trust me, I have participated in many of them on this forum. Just something to consider, God bless.

 

[Douggg]

Just to add to what others have said, I want to say this to Pre-tribbers::::

There’s millions and millions of Christians in the world who think they are going to be raptured away at any time. Think about the potential for MASSIVE deception.

Think about a million Christians turning up at a televised evangelical event. Remember that humans have technology like Project Blue Beam (youtube it).

The pre-trib doctrine is VERY dangerous and could trip up a lot of Christians. Stay away from it.

When the tribulation starts. You will deny it has started. You may keep up this pretense for a while but at a certain point you will have to admit that you are in it.

Now, once you admit it, imagine how quickly you will lose faith. You will deny the name of Christ in the wink of an eye. Think about that for a little bit.

Reminds me of Al Gore warning people about those "dangerous" tax cuts. Jesus said watch and that's what we are supposed to do.

Doug L.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Reminds me of Al Gore warning people about those "dangerous" tax cuts. Jesus said watch and that's what we are supposed to do.

Doug L.

Not sure if you agree or disagree with my post???>>>

What are you watching for Doug?

 

[Biblewriter]

Warning: If you read the scriptures in this message carefully, it may cause you to change your eschatology. For some of you, that may mean you face problems in your church or denomination. Please consider carefully before reading this message.

I used to believe in the pre-tribulation rapture theory. I was taught it growing up. Then, I began to study the issue in the Bible, and I could find no scripture that taught that the rapture would occur before the tribulation. Instead, I found scripture that directly contradicts the pre-trib rapture theory.

Read these verses and ask yourself the questions that follow. See if you can read this and still be pre-trib.

II Thessalonians 1
1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
....

4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:[/b]
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

II Thessalonians 2
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Let's look at these passages. Study the passage and answer these questions?

1. When does the church get its rest?

Answer: 'when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed form heaven.'

2. When does Christ take vengence on them that know not God and obey not the gospel?

Answer: At the same time, "when the Lord shall be revealed from heaven".

The pre-trib rapture has the saints receiving their rest 7 years before Christ takes vengence on them that know not God. Notice that Paul expects to get this rest as well. It makes sense to see this rest as the rapture and resurrection that occurs at Christ's coming. I Corinthins 15 tells us that are Christ's will be made alive 'at His coming.' Notice, that is at Christ's coming, not 7 years before it.

Also, notice in verse 10 what the day when Christ returns, gives the saints rest, punishes the wicked, and is glorified in the saints is called in II Thessalonians 2:10. It is called 'that day.' Several verses later in II Thessalonians 2:3, we see that 'that day' occurs after the apostasy, after the man of sin be revealed.

So, there we have it from straightforward reading of the text. The church receives its rest, and the saints are glorified when Christ returns. At Christ's coming, He also executes vengence and punishment on the wicked. Paul refers to this as 'that day.' 'That day' occurs after the apostasy, after the man of sin is revealed.

Any comments?

Your post contains three unwarranted assumptions about what the scriptures you quoted say.

2 Thes. 1:7 says we will have rest when Christ returns. But it does not say that we will enter into that rest at that time.

2 Thes. 1:10 says that He will be glorified in his saintss when He comes. It does not say that the saints will be glorified at that time.

2 Thes. 2:3 says that the day of Christ (verse 1) will not come until after the Antichrist appears. You assume without basis that this "day of Christ" is when He comes for us.

In short, if you want to build a coffin you will need better nails than these.

 

[LinkH]

Your post contains three unwarranted assumptions about what the scriptures you quoted say.

2 Thes. 1:7 says we will have rest when Christ returns. But it does not say that we will enter into that rest at that time.

Let's look carefully at the verse:

6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

According to the passage when does God recompense the church of the Thessalonians and the authors of the epistle with rest according to II Thessalonians 1:6-7?

The answer, directly from the passage "When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels...."

2 Thes. 1:10 says that He will be glorified in his saintss when He comes. It does not say that the saints will be glorified at that time.

I think that is a moot point. I have heard teaching on saints getting a 'glorified body', but I cannot think of any scripture that directly uses that phrase. I don't see how pointing out that the passage does not say the saints will be glorified at that time in any way diminishes the teaching of the passage that the church gets rest at Christ's revelation from heaven. If you read the passage, these various things mentioned before-- the church recieving rest, and the execution of vengence on the wicked, occur when Christ comes to be glorified in the saints.

2 Thes. 2:3 says that the day of Christ (verse 1) will not come until after the Antichrist appears. You assume without basis that this "day of Christ" is when He comes for us.

My conclusion here is not without a basis. Please look at the opening verses of the chapter.

2 Thessalonians 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

This gives us some insight into what the 'day of Christ' refers to. Notice the wording here, that 'by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him."

One might take these two events as occuring at the same time. Based on word order, if one happened before the other, from this verse, it makes more sense to say that 'the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ' would happen BEFORE the rapture, rather than after it.

So this verse is problematic for pre-trib, which teaches the rapture occurs before Christ's second coming. Keep in mind that I Corinthians 15 settles this issue for us, when it says that they that are Christ's will be made alive at Christ's coming.

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

For consistency of the flow of argument, it makes the most sense to see the 'day of Christ' as referring to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him, the events referred to in verse 1. What is the basis for seeing it as somethign else-- scriptural basis that is?


Do you care to go verse by verse in I Thessalonians 1 and give your pre-trib exposition of it.

 

[Douggg]

Not sure if you agree or disagree with my post???>>>

What are you watching for Doug?

No, I disagree with you. I just didn't want to get into a great big fruitless argument, concerning all the hypotheticals of your post. I am watching for 1thessalonians4:15-18 to take place.

Doug L.

 

[ivebeenshown]

No, I disagree with you. I just didn't want to get into a great big fruitless argument, concerning all the hypotheticals of your post. I am watching for 1thessalonians4:15-18 to take place.

Doug L.

What are you looking for to signal Christ's coming and gathering?

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

No, I disagree with you. I just didn't want to get into a great big fruitless argument, concerning all the hypotheticals of your post. I am watching for 1thessalonians4:15-18 to take place.

Doug L.

Just because somethings hypothetical doesnt mean it cant happen>>>>

Praise the Lord your looking forward to the time when you are raised up with Christ. I'm happy you are watching for that.

Were also told to watch for things coming to pass and be ready::::

21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
​

21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.​

 

[Bible2]

HisdaughterJen said:

Stop right there. Who says Rev 6-18 is the tribulation?

Revelation 7:9,14 refers to those in the church who will come out of the tribulation and enter into heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8) by dying during the tribulation events of the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), which describes the first stage of the future tribulation.

The tribulation will begin in the future with the horrible war (and its aftermath of famines and epidemics) of the second through fourth seals (Revelation 6:4-8), which will end up killing one-fourth of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. Subsequent to this war (and its aftermath) will occur the sixth-seal event (Revelation 6:12-14), which could be a gigantic volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera). This eruption could begin with a great earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of a huge amount of magma within the volcano.

When the volcano erupts, it could shoot huge amounts of ash and smoke high into the atmosphere, so that the sun will temporarily appear darkened (Revelation 6:12) and the moon will temporarily appear blood red (Revelation 6:12), like the sun can temporarily appear darkened and the moon can temporarily appear blood red during large forest fires when there's a lot of ash and smoke in the atmosphere. The volcano could also shoot out blobs of red-hot magma high into the sky, which, as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13).

The volcano could shoot up so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will fill the sky and make the sky look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the huge volcanic eruption could be so large that they could set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes in faults and volcanoes further away, etc., so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14).

After that, another volcano will collapse into the ocean (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could take out the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Then a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains a third of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that third of the world's fresh surface water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11).

After that will come a one-two punch of what the world will no doubt try to interpret as being two different "alien" invasions, the first "aliens" being weird locust-like creatures which will suddenly swarm up from the bottomless pit to torment mankind with excruciating stings for five months (Revelation 9:2-10). They will be led by a fallen angel named Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). The world could see the weird locust-like creatures coming up from the ground as aliens which had been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep within the earth's crust. The locust-like creatures won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

After the locust-like creatures have stung mankind for five months, the locust-like creatures could be killed off by an army of 200,000,000 weird horse-like creatures who will then come upon the earth and kill a third of mankind (Revelation 9:16-18). This army will be led by four powerful fallen angels who will be released from being bound in the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-15). If the army of horse-like creatures descends from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as a different race of aliens. The fallen angels could employ the army of horse-like creatures to make mankind completely desperate before its complete takeover by Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the beast) mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9-13:18).

When the army of 200,000,000 weird horse-like creatures starts killing a third of mankind (Revelation 9:16-18), then could also begin the biggest deception ever wrought upon mankind (besides the original one in Eden). For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels and rescue mankind from these terrible aliens".

It's at his point that Lucifer (Satan) and his angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth for good after losing a war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in beautiful, gleaming spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars" (Mars being the same as Marduk, the chief god of ancient Babylon), the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. And Lucifer, a literal, seven-headed dragon (Revelation 12:3) could emerge in great splendor and command his legions of angels to destroy all the horse-like "aliens" slaughtering mankind.

Lucifer could say that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", was able to send out a mental distress call to his "Father" Lucifer in heaven to come to the rescue with his legions of angels (like an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53: "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received by the world as the saviors of mankind.

The world could at first see the dragon Lucifer and his angels as merely different aliens, more powerful than the horse-like aliens. The world could think that Lucifer and his angels are (in the world's words) "come to visit the earth and help mankind to survive this awful tribulation. They will bring us to the next level of scientific advancement and to the next level of spiritual enlightenment". The New Agers could even welcome them with open arms as the "Ascended Masters" come in person to bring mankind into "the New Age". Lucifer and his angels themselves could explain to the world that they aren't aliens in the sense of material beings from somewhere else in the galaxy, but are a higher order of (in their words) "wholly-beneficent" spiritual beings come from the third-heaven spiritual realm (outside of the material universe) to rescue mankind.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the miracle-working False Prophet of the Antichrist, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the beast), and an image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a mark of the Antichrist on their right hand or forehead, consisting of the name of the Antichrist or the number of his name (Revelation 13:16-18).

The Antichrist will turn the world against YHWH, the God of the Bible, speaking terrible things against him (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). The Antichrist could lie and say that it was YHWH who sent against mankind the awful alien creatures (and all the preceding, natural disasters of the tribulation: Revelation 6:12-14, Revelation 8:7-12), when in fact it could be Lucifer and his fallen angels who did all of that from behind the scenes, so that they could subsequently arrive on the world stage as if they were the good guys come to rescue mankind.

They could promise mankind that they will help mankind to defeat YHWH and to escape (what they could call) "YHWH's vile prisonhouse of this material universe, and return to the heavenly, spiritual realm of bliss, the Pleroma, where mankind existed in pure-spirit form from all eternity, before by some mishap mankind fell into YHWH's trap and became enmeshed in the material realm". This lie is what Gnosticism teaches. The Antichrist will be a Gnostic, for he will revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) and deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3). The Antichrist will at the same time also be a Luciferian, for he will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4). The Antichrist could present him to the world as (in his words) "Our Lord Lucifer, the Savior of mankind. He will free us from YHWH's tyranny and lead us back into the Pleroma to live in bliss forever".

After Lucifer and the Antichrist have completely deceived the world and ruled it ruthlessly for 42 months (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send his vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16). Those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the vials (Revelation 16:15) will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

Near the end of the vials of wrath, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon), the Antichrist (the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13), and these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince all the armies of the world to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, all the armies will then travel south and defeat Jerusalem, right before the real Christ, Jesus Christ (who is YHWH, John 10:30), returns from heaven and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-15, Revelation 19:21). Jesus will at that time also defeat the Antichrist himself and the False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Jesus could return 1,335 days after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12). The 75 days between the end of the 1,260 days of the world-reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 12:6) and the return of Jesus (Revelation 19:7-21) could be taken up by the seven vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), which will be poured out on the Antichrist and his followers (Revelation 16:2-21).

When Jesus returns, after the coming tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30) of Revelation chapters 6-18, he will descend bodily from heaven on a white horse (1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31, 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:27). Then those in the church will be resurrected or changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). Then the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to have a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and then marry the church (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before the church mounts white horses and descends back down from sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he wages war against, and completely defeats, all the armies of the unsaved world, which will all have gathered against him (Revelation 19:19-21, Revelation 16:14-16). Then the resurrected and changed church, including those in the church who were beheaded by the Antichrist (the beast), will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

(Continued)

 

[Bible2]

(Continued)

HisdaughterJen said:

Jesus said:

Matt 24:

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
...
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
... 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:21 is referring only to the latter half of the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 11-18), the first half being Matthew 24:7-8 (Revelation chapters 6-10).

HisdaughterJen said:

When does the sun/moon darken/stars fall in Revelation, Bible2?

Rev 6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Revelation 6:12-13 and Matthew 24:29-31 are two different events. Revelation 6:12-13 will occur during only the first stage of the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, whereas Matthew 24:29-31 (like Revelation 19 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8) will occur after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18.

Also, when Revelation 6:12-13 occurs, the moon's light will temporarily appear blood-red, whereas when Matthew 24:29 occurs, the moon's light will temporarily not be seen at all. There will also be one point between the time of Revelation 6:12-13 and the time of Matthew 24:29 when the moon's light will temporarily not be seen at all, during a third of the night (Revelation 8:12).

Also, the sun's light temporarily not being seen in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the first time during the tribulation that the sun's light will be temporarily blocked from reaching the ground. For subsequently, during the fourth trumpet (part of the second stage of the tribulation), the sun's light will again be temporarily blocked from reaching the ground, for a third of the day (Revelation 8:12). And then subsequently, during the fifth vial (part of the fourth and final stage of the tribulation, the third stage being the 42-month world reign of the Antichrist, Revelation chapters 11-14), the sun's light will again be temporarily blocked from reaching the ground (Revelation 16:10). Then, after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over, the sun's light will again be temporarily blocked from reaching the ground, and Jesus will return and gather together (rapture) and marry the church (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-21).

Also, what will appear like "stars" falling from the sky in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the first time during the tribulation that what will appear like stars will fall from the sky. For subsequently, during the third trumpet, what will appear like a star will fall from the sky (Revelation 8:10-11). And then subsequently, during the fifth trumpet, what will appear like a star will fall from the sky (Revelation 9:1). And then subsequently, mid-tribulation, what will appear like stars will descend from the sky (Revelation 12:4). Then, after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over, what will appear like stars will fall from the sky, and Jesus will return and gather together (rapture) and marry the church (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-21).

HisdaughterJen said:

Therefore, the tribulation is OVER before the 6th seal, according to Jesus, Himself! What does come next is the Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord:

REv 6:17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 6:16-17 is what unsaved people will mistakenly say at the cataclysmic event of the sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-14). The Holy Spirit doesn't always correct the wrong statements of people quoted within his inspired books, such as people wrongly calling Jesus a deceiver (John 7:12, Matthew 27:63), or people wrongly calling the sixth seal the great day of God's wrath (Revelation 16:15). Believers can know from the context provided by these books that those quoted statements are wrong, just as believers can know from the context provided by the book of Job that Job was wrong when he said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the sixth seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath.

Satan could love for people to mistakenly think that the sixth seal is God's wrath, just as Satan could love for people to mistakenly think that the subsequent six trumpets (Revelation chapters 8-9) are God's wrath. For then Satan could not only have the pleasure of bringing about the cataclysm of the sixth seal and all of the destruction of the six trumpets, but then have the pleasure of using all of that unrelenting suffering of mankind to ultimately turn mankind completely against YHWH.

After Revelation chapters 8-9 are over, when the Antichrist (the beast) arises and takes over the earth, he will utterly revile YHWH and bring humanity into the worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and himself instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Daniel 11:36-39). In his speeches to humanity, the beast could revile YHWH as "a vile, petty god who only wants to make mankind suffer on this earth, and then he wants to torture mankind forever in hell! But now our Lord Lucifer has come down from heaven with his mighty legions of angels [Revelation 12:9] to forever rescue mankind from YHWH's foul tyranny. Together, we will defeat YHWH in a great battle [Revelation 16:14] and then we will follow our Lord Lucifer up into heaven [Isaiah 14:13]". But, of course, this will be a great deception (2 Thessalonians 2:11), for Lucifer, the beast and all of the armies of the unsaved world will be completely defeated when Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Revelation 19:19-20:3, Matthew 24:29-30).

Believers can know from the book-context of Revelation 16:15 that the sixth seal will be at the end of only the first stage of the coming tribulation, and that not all of the rest of the tribulation will be God's wrath. For shortly after the sixth seal has been opened, the seventh seal will be opened, and out of the seventh seal will come the seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The events of the first six trumpets up to the end of Revelation 9 will be the second stage of the coming tribulation. This second stage could transpire over a period of a couple of years, for the events of just the fifth trumpet by itself will last for five months (Revelation 9:5,10).

The events of the fifth trumpet will be the work of a swarm of weird locust-like creatures from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the events of the sixth trumpet will be the work of a huge army of weird horse-like creatures led by four fallen angels previously bound in the river Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So the events of the first six trumpets up to the end of Revelation 9 could all be the wrath of Satan instead of the wrath of God; they could be God allowing Satan to destroy one-third of things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as God will subsequently, mid-tribulation, allow Satan to cause one-third of the angels to be cast down to the earth for good (Revelation 12:4,9).

After the events of Revelation 9:14-21 will come the third stage of the tribulation: the 3.5-year world-reign of the Antichrist (the beast), which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11-14. This time period is when Satan in his wrath against believers will go after them (Revelation 12:17) by empowering the Antichrist and his followers to take over the whole earth and physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:4-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13). This 3.5-year world-reign of the beast will legally end at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15).

Out of the heavenly temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19) will come the fourth and final stage of the tribulation: the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:5-16:1), which will be poured out upon the Antichrist (the beast) and his followers (Revelation 16). Only after the seventh vial is completed (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2) will Jesus return and bring the second-coming wrath of God upon the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

After Jesus returns, he will have Satan bound in the bottomless pit, and he will then set up his millennial kingdom on the earth with the resurrected church (Revelation 19:19-20:6). Jesus and the resurrected church will then rule the surviving unsaved nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2). During the millennium, Jesus will have to employ his wrath against the surviving unsaved nations in order to bring them into forced submission to him (Zechariah 14:16-19, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2).

After the millennium is over, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-9), but it will be defeated by God's wrath against it (Ezekiel 38:19-23). After the defeat of the Gog/Magog rebellion, the earth will remain in existence for at least seven more years (Ezekiel 39:9). After those at least seven more years are over, the white throne judgment will occur, in which all of the unsaved of all times will be resurrected and judged and cast into God's eternal wrath of the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

 

[Angelmb]

So one more problem for me 1cor15:52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It says at the last trump the rapture comes we all know theres a judgment for every trumpet and on the last one it all comes to a climax .That conserns me. Didnt God take lot out of sodom and gamorah
before he burned it to the ground.