Nails in the Coffin of Pre-Trib

HisdaughterJen

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Thanks for the response.

If Rev 13:5 tells us that the Antichrist has 42 months of authority then doesn't that mean 42 months? 37 does not equal 42.

The anti-christ has nothing to do with the great tribulation (or the abomination of desolation).

Jesus said the great tribulation is cut short before the false christs/false prophets/false miracles arise. The beasts are part of the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath that comes after the great tribulation is cut short:


15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
...
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
... 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
 
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TSpaz

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At verse 22, Christ describes the severity of those days. The following verses are more information about those days.

I think that when Christ said those days would be cut short, He meant that unless there was an intervention (by Him at Rev 19) no one would be left alive.

And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. (Mat 24:22 ESV)
 
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HisdaughterJen

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At verse 22, Christ describes the severity of those days. The following verses are more information about those days.

I think that when Christ said those days would be cut short, He meant that unless there was an intervention (by Him at Rev 19) no one would be left alive.

And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. (Mat 24:22 ESV)

And what about where he said after those days are cut short, THEN arises false christs/false prophets/ false miracles?


15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
...
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
 
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TSpaz

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I don't see a problem. It's a common method of communication. First He gave an overview describing the severity of the days, then He added more information.

In what way are the days cut short?

I see this quoted often and now here as well.

It seems to mean different things to different people. Some people have told me that this shortens the length of the great tribulation. I don't see how this is possible. The great tribulation will remain the length that it was pre-ordained to be.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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I don't see a problem. It's a common method of communication. First He gave an overview describing the severity of the days, then He added more information.

In what way are the days cut short?

I see this quoted often and now here as well.

It seems to mean different things to different people. Some people have told me that this shortens the length of the great tribulation. I don't see how this is possible. The great tribulation will remain the length that it was pre-ordained to be.

It's possible because your Lord and Savior, Jesus said so:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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"It's possible because your Lord and Savior, Jesus said so:"

So are you saying that the length of the tribulation is shortened from what it was intended to be?

He just said it is shortened for the sake of the elect or else no one would survive.

Is that shortened from original length?...God knows.

He said it began with the desolation of Israel and is cut short before the 6th seal.

It looks like, and this is speculation, that the devil intends to thwart God's plans and God steps in.
 
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John Christian V

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What HisdaughterJen says makes sense. Satan is trying to subvert God's will and rule forever, but God cuts it short, allowing the reign of the Anti-Christ to last only 42 months. For Yahweh to describe a 3 1/2 year period, then have it shortened from that isn't logical, since He sees the end from the beginning.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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What HisdaughterJen says makes sense. Satan is trying to subvert God's will and rule forever, but God cuts it short, allowing the reign of the Anti-Christ to last only 42 months. For Yahweh to describe a 3 1/2 year period, then have it shortened from that isn't logical, since He sees the end from the beginning.

The anti-christ's reign is during the time of wrath (Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath/7th seal). The great tribulation that is cut short is OVER before the 6th seal, when the devil is cast down and gog invades.

This came to mind:

Rev 12: 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
...

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

At the time when the great tribulation is cut short and the Day of Wrath begins, there's something going on spiritually. I need to seek the Lord regarding this. There must be other scripture that speaks of it.

Edit to add: Oh...wow...I think I might know what it is...
 
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zeke37

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I don't see a problem. It's a common method of communication. First He gave an overview describing the severity of the days, then He added more information.

In what way are the days cut short?

I see this quoted often and now here as well.

It seems to mean different things to different people. Some people have told me that this shortens the length of the great tribulation. I don't see how this is possible. The great tribulation will remain the length that it was pre-ordained to be.
well, consider

Jesus taught specifically that no man or angel or not even He Himself knew when...only the Father...

so the shortened time, could be just that...a single season
a time that is not known to the angels (as in Daniel) or to men...

Apollyon and Abbadon..research the names...the Strong's Concordance teaches that the destroyer is Satan.

and he's got but 5 months for his flood of lies,
the same length of the waters prevailing on the earth during that flood of Noah's day...
 
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yeshuasavedme

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1. When does the church get its rest?
Ans: The Church is made of born again in Christ believers who are in the Rest Jesus promised from the beginning. This is the True Sabbath that was made from the beginning and which Adam lost, at the fall, when Adam fell and was cast out of the Garden of the LORD, and entered into labor that is vain, and without lasting fruit for God's glory -our entire race is the seed of Adam and so, we are all named Adam; Genesis 5:2, and al our works in Adam are vain, and we are vain, and we must be ransomed and enter into His true Sabbath Rest, and do His will and works, in His New Man name into which we are adopted in Spirit [Christ is that Spirit] and shall be adopted in body, at the time of the rapture/laqach, of the Church,
Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

Hebrews 4 shows us that we enter that Rest promised from the beginning when we, the Church, are in Christ. The earth will also enter into that Rest at the return to reign of the LORD and Redeemer of it, who shed His blood on it to fulfill the ransom purchase of it, as is oracled in the Law.

Hbr 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Hbr 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.
Hbr 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

This is the promise of Jesus to whosoever will hear the Gospel, repent, and believe:

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.

In Isaiah, God promised that He would hide this truth from Israel's religious leaders and reveal it to "babes". Because of their rejection of it, they were blinded to the Truth of the Gospel that they were the "keepers of the vineyard" for, who were to bring forth its "fruit unto the Master of the vineyard". He gave that vineyard keeping to the Church for this Church age, which will end when the Church is removed from the midst of the world, which is before the time of Israel's trouble and the redemption of Israel, and her restoration as the "Keeper of the Vineyard of YHWH", whose fruit is born again in Christ sons of God, made for the Glory to indwell, as "the Temple not made with hands" for His glory to indwell.

Mat 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.


Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts....
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This [is] the rest [wherewith] ye may cause the weary to rest; and this [is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear.



Mat 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. Mat 11:30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.


To Israel, He said:
Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. sa 29:11 And the vision/חזות chazuwth/ [the oracle of the prophet] of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed:

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, [even] a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent [men] shall be hid.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Just to add to what others have said, I want to say this to Pre-tribbers::::

There’s millions and millions of Christians in the world who think they are going to be raptured away at any time. Think about the potential for MASSIVE deception.
Millions and millions? Then only half of them are ready, according to the parable of the five wise virgins, so half of millions and millions is how many? -:), and if they are watching and praying to be counted worthy to escape all the things coming on all the inhabitants of the world then they will be ready to meet their maker in glory at any moment of death, sudden or expected; so wisdom lives "ready/prepared to go" when the trumpets sound together to call the Congregation to be gathered together unto the LORD, at His heavenly temple door -just like the Living Oracles committed only to the namesake people of the New Man name teach, as the Schoolmaster/Tutor.


The Hebrew word for the rapture is "laqach", and Enoch is our prototype for the "removal from the midst of the world" before the great tribulation comes upon all the inhabitants of the world.

Jesus warned us to watch and pray that we may be counted worthy To ESCAPE all these things coming on all the inhabitants of the world, and to stand before the Son of Man in heaven, as priests fully clothed in garments for Glory, and celebrating the consecration of priesthood in His adopted sons in His New Man name; just as the Living Oracles teach us, which were committed only to the namesake people of the New Man name.

Jesus referred to Psalm 75:2,3, as it is read in the Hebrew, for the "ESCAPE" at the time of the removal -the Laqach- from the midst of the world, of His congregation before all these things can come on all the inhabitants of the world, when mens hearts will melt/dissolve for fear of those things coming.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Psalm 75:2,3
לקח laqach מועד mow`ed שפט shaphat מישר meyshar
ארץ 'erets ישב yashab מוג muwg תכן takan עמוד `ammuwd

[when I] remove from the midst the =take away from the earth- the congregation =the Church -[then I shall] vindicate [my people, and punish the inhabitants of the earth] with uprightness -with righteous judgment.
The earth and all the inhabitants [remaining on it] will melt for fear. [I will] level [actually, the sense is to set them anew, to the righteous standards] the pillars of the earth [those heavenly forces].
 
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John Christian V

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Warning: If you read the scriptures in this message carefully, it may cause you to change your eschatology. For some of you, that may mean you face problems in your church or denomination. Please consider carefully before reading this message.

I used to believe in the pre-tribulation rapture theory. I was taught it growing up. Then, I began to study the issue in the Bible, and I could find no scripture that taught that the rapture would occur before the tribulation. Instead, I found scripture that directly contradicts the pre-trib rapture theory.

Read these verses and ask yourself the questions that follow. See if you can read this and still be pre-trib.

II Thessalonians 1
1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
....

4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:[/b]
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

II Thessalonians 2
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Let's look at these passages. Study the passage and answer these questions?

1. When does the church get its rest?

Answer: 'when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed form heaven.'

2. When does Christ take vengence on them that know not God and obey not the gospel?

Answer: At the same time, "when the Lord shall be revealed from heaven".

The pre-trib rapture has the saints receiving their rest 7 years before Christ takes vengence on them that know not God. Notice that Paul expects to get this rest as well. It makes sense to see this rest as the rapture and resurrection that occurs at Christ's coming. I Corinthins 15 tells us that are Christ's will be made alive 'at His coming.' Notice, that is at Christ's coming, not 7 years before it.

Also, notice in verse 10 what the day when Christ returns, gives the saints rest, punishes the wicked, and is glorified in the saints is called in II Thessalonians 2:10. It is called 'that day.' Several verses later in II Thessalonians 2:3, we see that 'that day' occurs after the apostasy, after the man of sin be revealed.

So, there we have it from straightforward reading of the text. The church receives its rest, and the saints are glorified when Christ returns. At Christ's coming, He also executes vengence and punishment on the wicked. Paul refers to this as 'that day.' 'That day' occurs after the apostasy, after the man of sin is revealed.

Any comments?

I agree. Thessalonians 2:1-3 is the passage which first led me to question and ultimately stop believing in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture back in 2002. Check out my Pre-Tribulation Rapture thread for more passages which reveal Pre-Trib to be an erroneous doctrine.
 
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LinkH

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In Isaiah, God promised that He would hide this truth from Israel's religious leaders and reveal it to "babes". Because of their rejection of it, they were blinded to the Truth of the Gospel that they were the "keepers of the vineyard" for, who were to bring forth its "fruit unto the Master of the vineyard". He gave that vineyard keeping to the Church for this Church age, which will end when the Church is removed from the midst of the world, which is before the time of Israel's trouble and the redemption of Israel, and her restoration as the "Keeper of the Vineyard of YHWH", whose fruit is born again in Christ sons of God, made for the Glory to indwell, as "the Temple not made with hands" for His glory to indwell.

You shared a lot of interesting things in your post in response to my questions regarding when the church enters into rest. Actually I should have asked when does the church enter into rest according to II Thessalonians 1, which shows that this occurs when Christ is revealed with His mighty angels executing vengence on them that known not God.

This was the one thing I noticed in your replay that gave me pause. If you will notice, II Thessalonians 1 shows that Christ gives the church rest when he is revealed from heaven, when He brings wrath on the wicked, not seven before it. How do you then place these events before the time of Israel's trouble? How do you interpret the II Thessalonians 1 passage?
 
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John Christian V

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Revelation 6:16-17 is what unsaved people will mistakenly say at the cataclysmic event of the sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-14). The Holy Spirit doesn't always correct the wrong statements of people quoted within his inspired books, such as people wrongly calling Jesus a deceiver (John 7:12, Matthew 27:63), or people wrongly calling the sixth seal the great day of God's wrath (Revelation 16:15). Believers can know from the context provided by these books that those quoted statements are wrong, just as believers can know from the context provided by the book of Job that Job was wrong when he said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the sixth seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath.

That's an interesting idea. I hadn't thought of that before.
 
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John Christian V

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The anti-christ's reign is during the time of wrath (Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath/7th seal). The great tribulation that is cut short is OVER before the 6th seal, when the devil is cast down and gog invades.

Gog doesn't invade until after the second coming of Christ. Ezekiel 38 and 39 describe the same event as Revelation 20:7-9. Or are we to believe that Gog and Magog attack twice? Remember, sister, this is not about who's right or who's wrong, it's about what is true. Just trying to help. The events of Ezekiel 37 haven't occurred yet.

Ezekiel 37:22-25
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Yes, a modern nation-state known as Israel was founded in the Promised Land in 1948, but it is counterfeit. The people who call themselves Jews there remain in unbelief. Judaism is an anti-Christ religion. Ezekiel's prophecy does not state that Yahweh's people will return to the land in unbelief.

1 John 2:22-23
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
 
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John Christian V

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1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Is there any reason we should not understand the last trump to be the seventh trumpet of Revelation?
 
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HisdaughterJen

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I agree. Thessalonians 2:1-3 is the passage which first led me to question and ultimately stop believing in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture back in 2002. Check out my Pre-Tribulation Rapture thread for more passages which reveal Pre-Trib to be an erroneous doctrine.

Oh, you mean these passages that show that the church is the restrainer that has to depart before the Day of the Lord begins and the man of sin is revealed:

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you

2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come.

2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,

2Th 2:4he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.

2Th 2:5Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?

2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.

2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;



Paul told you the order of events here too:


1 Thess 4 13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Is there any reason we should not understand the last trump to be the seventh trumpet of Revelation?

Well, there's a gathering at the last trumpet in Joel 2 and it's the 2nd of two.

The Bereans could test Paul's words by the Scriptures to make sure everything Paul said was true. Revelation was written decades after Paul's death.

There's also the fact that the last jubilee (long loud blast of a ram's horn or trumpet) is on the last Jubilee (50th year) on 120 sets of 50 established by God in the OT.
 
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