Creationist explain the Miocene please

[juvenissun]

Time periods between volcanic activity at a particular site can range in the 100s of thousands of years. Is that not enough time of stability for cyclothem deposition to occur?

No. I guess a few million years is appropriate for a very short one in a generally unstable region (for the sake of having that volcano). This figure is given according to the most recent history of glaciation.

 

[Gracchus]

No. I guess a few million years is appropriate for a very short one in a generally unstable region (for the sake of having that volcano). This figure is given according to the most recent history of glaciation.

You have been shown basalt interlaced with cyclothems. To say it isn't possible when confronted with the fact of it, is, to say the least, insane.

 

[juvenissun]

You have been shown basalt interlaced with cyclothems. To say it isn't possible when confronted with the fact of it, is, to say the least, insane.

No. If you see the cross section again, it does not show that.

 

[Tomk80]

No. If you see the cross section again, it does not show that.

Yes it does, in the part of Moe Swamp basin. Either there is an order of cyclothem following basalt following cyclothem, or the parts above and below the basalt are not cyclothems.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

No. If you see the cross section again, it does not show that.

Yes it does, stop being so stupid Juv'y



[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Miocene and younger BASALTIC lava flows Western Victoria Australia, same age as brown coal deposits of Western Victoria.




FIRST PHASE BASALTS (Qv1)
The first major period of extrusion occurred in the Early Pliocene, at ~4 Ma (Figure 1). A 4.47 Ma basalt directly overlies Late Miocene sediments 5.5 km west of Hamilton, and probably represents the earliest of these eruptions (Turnbull et al. 1965, revised using updated decay constants) whilst an overlying flow at Mt Pierrepoint, 15 km east of Hamilton, is 4.0 Ma old (revised age from McDougall et al. 1966). This suite of basalts infilled pre-existing palaeovalleys and then deposited sheet-like flows over a planar surface. Intensive weathering has since formed a gently undulating plain, which south of Branxholme is strongly incised by drainage lines associated with the Condah Swamp and Crawford River, forming resistant plateaus. Several different basalt flows are present south of Hamilton according to the 87Sr/86Sr data, but these cannot be differentiated topographically or radiometrically owing to the intensive weathering, incision, and cover of sandy top-soils.
The prominent hills of Mt Bainbridge and Mt Pierrepoint represent eruption points; at least two individual flows from each can be identified (Figure 1). To the north in the Moutajup area, another eruption point is surrounded by a younger second phase lava field, as is Gazette Hill, which forms a prominent topographic high between Mt Rouse and Mt Napier.
The intensive weathering of the first phase basalts is reflected in the deeply weathered and ferruginised
regolith profiles, typically up to 15 m thick, which have been mapped as the Hamilton regolith terrain (Ollier & Joyce 1986) or the Hamilton-Branxholme Land System (Gibbons & Gill 1964). In situ profiles typically consist of a friable reddish-brown clay loam A1 horizon, 30-40 cm in thickness, underlain by a light brown A2 horizon 15-20 cm thick, with abundant sub-angular to angular pisoliths (60-80%), increasing in concentration with depth. The B1 horizon comprises 50-60 cm of yellow-red clay, with a smooth transition into a kaolinitic clay B2 horizon (saprolite), which has prominent yellow-red mottles (&#8220;tiger mottles&#8221. This kaolinitic saprolite varies in thickness from 10 to 15 m, with a saprock zone toward the base. Bore logs indicate that the weathering front may extend downwards for up to 20 m (Mann et al. 1992). Profiles typically thin toward hilltops; on Mt Bainbridge the A1 horizon is 10cm thick and A2 horizon <40 cm thick, directly overlying saprock (B horizon is absent). Sandy clay soils replace the typical A and B horizons in the Branxholme/Condah region, and are readily identifiable in radiometric imagery as a series of near zero response curvilinear bands, owing to the quartz sand in the profile. The first phase basalts on the plains generally have a very uniform low K and U and high Th response in radiometric imagery. Eruption points such as Mt Bainbridge and Mt Pierrepoint are readily identified by a relatively high K response, appearing red in ternary radiometric images. K within the basalts is probably largely contained in volcanic glass, and is quickly lost during weathering (Price et al. 1991), so fresh basalt has a higher K response than weathered material. The high K response of the eruption points reflects the shallow soils and occasional rocky outcrop, completely absent in the adjacent plains. The high Th content of the thick regolith of the plains basalts is probably due to the concentration of trace elements, including Th, in clay minerals and iron oxides and hydroxides during weathering (Dickson & Scott 1997, Price et al. 1991). The first phase basalts can be traced in the subsurface using bore logs over most of the study area, except in the far north. These basalts are more strongly jointed and fractured than the overlying second phase basalts and give a higher downhole neutron log response, reflecting their greater porosity (Mann et al. 1992).

SECOND PHASE BASALTS (Qv2)
The second major phase of volcanic activity occurred around 2 Ma, which marks the volumetric peak of extrusion for the Newer Volcanics Province (Price et al. 1997). Six new K-Ar dates on second phase basalts have been obtained in the study area (Gray unpublished data), ranging from 2.23 ±0.03 Ma (north of Cavendish) to 1.8 ± 0.03 Ma for a long flow (25-30 km) associated with the Lake Repose eruption point south of Dunkeld, with other dates of 1.88 ± 0.08 Ma (north-south flow in the Caramut region), 2.07 ± 0.01 Ma and 1.95 ± 0.02 Ma (east and north of Mt Rouse respectively; Figure 1).
The second phase basalts occupy the northern and eastern segments of the field area as a broad, gently
undulating plain (Figure 1). Rocky outcrops and breakaways are typically associated with the edges of flows, allowing most flows to be recognised by their topographic expression. Lake Repose is a major eruption point in the east, with its crater now occupied by the lake; numerous flows radiate from this source. Basalts from Lake Repose and other eruption points in the Hamilton region (both first and second phase) generally flow towards a low-lying area extending south from Victoria Valley to Lake Linlithgow (Figure 1); this corresponds to a graben identified using drill hole data (Paine et al. in press). Mapping around Lake Linlithgow indicates that the lake sits on first phase basalts, and is constrained by surrounding second phase lavas. Lake Kennedy lies between first phase flows from Mt Pierrepoint to the west and second phase basalts to the east. In the Moutajup region second phase basalts have infilled the swales of Pliocene strandlines, which are exposed through the lava field, now appearing as low K, U and Th curvilinear anomalies in radiometric imagery.
Regolith profiles developed on the second phase basalts are markedly different from those on the first phase basalts, with the absence of intensive ferruginisation and kaolinitic saprolite, and have previously been mapped as the Dunkeld and Strathkellar Land-System and Dunkeld regolith province (Gibbons & Gill 1964, Ollier & Joyce 1986). Soil profiles typically comprise a brown silty loam A1 (0-20 cm), underlain by a brown clay loam A2 containing abundant pisoliths (50-60%). There is a sharp transition to a yellow clay B horizon that varies in thickness from 1 to 2 m and overlies weathered basalt saprock. Unweathered basalt is typically found at 5-10 m. The profile is also characterised by &#8220;floaters&#8221; or sub-angular to sub-rounded corestones exhibiting onionskin weathering.
Second phase basalts show a low to moderate Th, low U and moderate K radiometric response. They are marked in ternary imagery by a blue-green colour with red specks; the latter probably represent the abundant corestones in the profile giving a high K response. Eruption points also appear as K highs. The radiometric response may vary considerably within an individual basalt flow; the most variable signals are evident on the edges of the flows, probably due to the presence of rocky outcrop.

THIRD PHASE BASALTS (Qv3)
The third phase lavas were erupted from Mt Rouse (367 m AHD), Mt Eccles (177 m AHD) and Mt Napier (440 m AHD), which all rise well above the surrounding plain, Mt Napier being the highest volcano within the Newer Volcanics Province (Rosengren 1994). The surrounding lava aprons and valley filling flows (e.g., Harman Valley and Moyne River) are characterised by a very irregular ground surface covered by angular basalt blocks. Mt Rouse lavas are the oldest, with ages ranging from 0.31 Ma to 0.45 Ma (McDougall & Gill 1975), verified by dates of 0.33 ± 0.02 Ma and 0.34 ± 0.01 Ma obtained from the Moyne River flow during this study. A reported date of 1.8 Ma from the base of Mt Rouse (Ollier 1985) is probably from the surrounding 2 Ma lava field, as the more youthful regolith at Mt Rouse strongly contrasts with that on the surrounding ~2 Ma lavas. Mt Eccles and Mt Napier are younger than Mt Rouse, both with dates of ~30,000 yr BP (Head et al. 1991, Stone et al. 1997).
The youthfulness of the third phase flows is reflected in their high K signature, which appears red in ternary radiometric imagery, making the flows easy to trace down pre-existing river valleys to the coast (Figure 1). Mt Rouse has a slightly lower K signature than Mt Napier and Mt Eccles owing to its greater age. Regolith development on Mt Napier and Mt Eccles is restricted to red-brown loam soil between adjacent angular, closely packed boulders. Primary volcanic features, such as tumuli, lava caves, spatter ramparts, cinder cones and lateral barriers, are well preserved (Whitehead 1991). Regolith development is greater at Mt Rouse, with red-brown loam up to 60 cm in thickness between rounded to sub-rounded corestones with onion skin weathering. Black clays and peaty soils in depressions and swamps may be up to 1.5 m thick. Individual third phase basalt flows cannot be easily distinguished using radiometric imagery, but previous detailed field mapping, petrographic and geochemical studies identified at least 4 individual flows at Mt Rouse, 3 at Mt Napier and 10 at Mt Eccles (Rosengren 1994, Whitehead 1991). The Plio-Pleistocene basalts of the Hamilton area exert a strong control on the hydrogeology. Areas of thin soils and rocky outcrops (third phase basalts and eruption points on all terrains) are strongly correlated with high quality groundwaters (< 2 mS/cm; Figures 1 and 2). The area underlain by low salinity groundwater associated with these recharge sites also increases with increasing permeability and area of outcrop, e.g., third phase basalts are the most permeable across much of their surface and hence have the largest area of high quality water associated with them (Figure 2). Third phase basalts and major eruption points of all ages allow rapid infiltration of meteoric waters through joints and fractures to recharge the basalt aquifers, leaving little time for evapotranspiration to occur which would otherwise increase the salinity of the groundwaters. In
contrast, waters seeping through thick clay soils, such as those on the first and second phase plains basalts, infiltrate slowly and hence are strongly affected by evapotranspiration, becoming saline. Relatively fresh groundwaters flowing away from the recharge areas of the volcanoes beneath the adjacent basalt plains gradually increase in salinity, as saline water infiltrating through the overlying thick clay soils is progressively added. Mapping of eruption points is thus very important in identifying groundwater recharge areas and related potential groundwater resources, as well as defining areas susceptible to groundwater contamination given the rapidity of recharge.
The distribution of basalt flows also plays a major role in governing the location of groundwater discharge sites (Figure 3). Most discharge occurs where the watertable is exposed at the break of slope along the edge of basalt flows, or along incised drainage lines. Mapping of basalt flow boundaries is therefore useful for identification of areas of present and future groundwater discharge and salinisation, because any increase in the number and area of discharge sites will largely be confined to the flow margins. In addition, this mapping can be further used to understand the processes of salinisation and prioritise areas for remediation.


LINK to artice and MAPS OF BASALTIC FLOWS

The Basaltic flows are subaerial, thus the creationist bull excrement about the Miocene deposits of Victoria being flood deposits is nothing but religious ignorance.

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[juvenissun]

Yes it does, in the part of Moe Swamp basin. Either there is an order of cyclothem following basalt following cyclothem, or the parts above and below the basalt are not cyclothems.

The image shows the lava flow underlain the coal beds. Well, I admit the image is too small to be positive on details. The bottom lava layer seems to be all there is.

The data shows the lava layers dated 4 Ma, 2 Ma and 0.3 Ma. In such an environment, the concept of cyclothem does not apply. It is simply a volcanic area.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

The image shows the lava flow underlain the coal beds. Well, I admit the image is too small to be positive on details. The bottom lava layer seems to be all there is.

The data shows the lava layers dated 4 Ma, 2 Ma and 0.3 Ma. In such an environment, the concept of cyclothem does not apply. It is simply a volcanic area.

The point is creationist state that the brown coals of Victoria formed during the magical mystical biblical flood; this is impossible. Why I here you ask. Well the Miocene geology of Victoria contains many basaltic flows, all of which are subaerial, thus DRY GROUND. Not to mention all other evidences.

DRY GROUND = No Magical Mystical Flood

Thus the brown coals of Victoria are not the result of magical mysticism.

Agreed Juv’y

 

[Tomk80]

The image shows the lava flow underlain the coal beds. Well, I admit the image is too small to be positive on details. The bottom lava layer seems to be all there is.

Are you looking at the same picture I am? At Moe Swamp Basin, the coal beds are situated both above and below the basalt.

The data shows the lava layers dated 4 Ma, 2 Ma and 0.3 Ma. In such an environment, the concept of cyclothem does not apply. It is simply a volcanic area.

So the coal under or over the basalt is not a cyclothem?

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

The image shows the lava flow underlain the coal beds. Well, I admit the image is too small to be positive on details. The bottom lava layer seems to be all there is.

The data shows the lava layers dated 4 Ma, 2 Ma and 0.3 Ma. In such an environment, the concept of cyclothem does not apply. It is simply a volcanic area.

Here we go Juv'y

MICROSCOPIC QUARTZ CRYSTALS IN
BROWN COAL. VICTORIA
GBoncB Baxun,

U nia er s ily of M elb o urne, V i ci or ia, A us lr ali a.
Arsrrucr

Minute, doubly-terminated crystals of quartz showing simple crystallographic forms occur in patches in the Tertiary Brown Coal at two localities in Victoria. They have crystallisedfrom solutions derived either from the magma of the overlying basalt flows, or from vadose waters.

Underground mining operations at the Parwan Colliery, 27 miles W.
N.W. of Melbourne, have revealed that the upper 12 leet of the hard,
earthy Parwan brown coal seam is impregnated with minute, doublyterminated
qu.artz crystals. The top of the seam is exposed in the inclined
main heading leading northwards from the shaft.
The coal seam, which is Miocene in age (Parr , tg42), is about 100 feet
thick, and lies at a depth of 405 feet below the surface. immediately
above the seam is a 9 foot thick bed of pyritic sands, partly cemented,
but largely so unconsolidated that it rills down into the workings if the
top of the seam is broken through. Above the sands are fossiliferous
marine clays, which are capped by two thick flows of Newer Volcanic
basalt, of a total thickness amounting to approximately 250 feet. A basaltic
dyke, about 3 feet wide, has intruded the coal seam in the area
impregnated with quartz crystals. The coal adjacent to the dyke developed
minute shrinkage cracks which were filled with threads of basalt.
The quartz crystals are most abundantly developed at the roof of the
seam, and diminish in both quantity and size with inciease in depth
below it, being practically absent at !2 feet below the roof. Ash determinations
made at the Victorian Mines Department Laboratory show that
in the top six feetof coal the ash, which consists chiefly oI quartzcrystals
varies from I4.257o to 26.95/6, while in coal from 6 to 12 feet below the
top of the seam, the ash content is only 7/6. The average ash content of
the coal as mined (at 30 feet below the top of the seam) js 5To.
The decreasei n the size of the crystals with increasing depth below the
top of the seam, is shown by the following measurements


LINK

So Juv’y do you still maintain that there are no basaltic flows interleaved with brown coals. Also it is obvious that creationists with their magical mystical biblical flood are completely wrong, these deposits are subaerial.

 

[juvenissun]

Here we go Juv'y

MICROSCOPIC QUARTZ CRYSTALS IN
BROWN COAL. VICTORIA

So Juv’y do you still maintain that there are no basaltic flows interleaved with brown coals. Also it is obvious that creationists with their magical mystical biblical flood are completely wrong, these deposits are subaerial.

I never say you can not find microquartz in coal. There is no need for a nearby basaltic deposit for that, even it is welcome to participate. I was refuting that you tied lava flow with cyclothem. The existence of microquartz in coal further support that the coal is NOT cyclothemic in origin.

 

[juvenissun]

Are you looking at the same picture I am? At Moe Swamp Basin, the coal beds are situated both above and below the basalt.


So the coal under or over the basalt is not a cyclothem?

No.

 

[juvenissun]

The point is creationist state that the brown coals of Victoria formed during the magical mystical biblical flood; this is impossible. Why I here you ask. Well the Miocene geology of Victoria contains many basaltic flows, all of which are subaerial, thus DRY GROUND. Not to mention all other evidences.

DRY GROUND = No Magical Mystical Flood

Thus the brown coals of Victoria are not the result of magical mysticism.

Agreed Juv’y

I never read the original argument. I was simply picking on your mistakes. And I do not want to read the original argument. Flood is Flood, Miocene is Miocene. They don't have to be related. The whole thread is meaningless at the beginning.

 

[Split Rock]

While I freely agree that Wikipedia is not the best source for geology on the internet, would anyonme wish to comment on this definition of Cyclothem?

In geology, cyclothems are alternating stratigraphic sequences of marine and non-marine sediments, interbedded with coal seams. Unique to the Carboniferous and earliest Permian periods, they apparently formed as a result of marine transgressions and regressions related to decay and growth of ice sheets, respectively, as the Carboniferous was a time of widespread glaciation. Cyclothems were possible because of the extremely low topography of the interior lowlands the seas covered and uncovered, which is why they have been absent in the current ice age.

 

[RobertByers]

Ok Rob, several point here, which I will in good time get round to, but for now I would like to stay will the Miocene brown coals of Victoria, Australia, because I think we need to get to the answers on this subject first, particularly as the creationist Tas Walker has written an article stating that these deposits are biblical flood deposits.


Tas Walker
Coal Memorial to the flood.
First published:
Creation ex nihilo 23(2):22–27
March 2001

LINK

I have shown; in fact he shows in his article that the brown coals in question are interleafed with subaerial basaltic flows. So they were not formed beneath water, but subaerially.

Juv’y has also made some claims that coal cyclotherms and basaltic volcanism cannot occur in the same place, but I have shown otherwise; in particular the island of Sumatra which at present is in the most tectonically active area in the world and also has vast peat swamps, which are a precursor to brown coal.

So this discussion is not about creationism per say, but about nothing more than the Victoria brown coals and if they were formed in a subaerial or sub-aqueous environment.

Tas walker is a great creationist and like this article shows makes many and varied good points about subjects. Versatile in his examination of the data.

Mr Walker is right about this being a sudden event. Yet when did it happen?
The talk about flora indicates a post flood world. so to me this could be from a post flood event that is the source of the fossilization of post flood australia in the south which I use for my marsupial ideas. I suspect this is the origin and time line. Its from some surge of the sea over the land from some earth movement causes. Austalia was already moored permanent save for rising/falling a little perhaps.I guess your going to say that this must of happened on dry land and not from being submerged or something.
I need to know your complaint.
I do see the possibility of a combination of things occuring.

 

[juvenissun]

While I freely agree that Wikipedia is not the best source for geology on the internet, would anyonme wish to comment on this definition of Cyclothem?

What's said in Wikipedia is a conventional understanding. Noticed it specified that the deposit belonged to a particular time period. This is because an extensive deposit of such nature was only recorded once in the detectable earth history.

However, it is understandable that this term could be borrowed to describe similar deposits, but of smaller scale both in space and time period. The key feature is to have a sequential deposits made by "peaceful" repetitive rising and falling of sea level (it means that the land does not move). As a result, such a deposit only happened in a region of stable earth crust, on which volcanic activity is not a likely feature.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Tas walker is a great creationist and like this article shows makes many and varied good points about subjects. Versatile in his examination of the data.

Mr Walker is right about this being a sudden event. Yet when did it happen?
The talk about flora indicates a post flood world. so to me this could be from a post flood event that is the source of the fossilization of post flood australia in the south which I use for my marsupial ideas. I suspect this is the origin and time line. Its from some surge of the sea over the land from some earth movement causes. Austalia was already moored permanent save for rising/falling a little perhaps.I guess your going to say that this must of happened on dry land and not from being submerged or something.
I need to know your complaint.
I do see the possibility of a combination of things occuring.

Tas Walker is full of creationist bull excrement and what does that say about persons who soak up this crap.

If you want to defend him, explain why the brown coals are interleafed with subaerial basaltic flows.

I bet you cannot do it without invoking miracles.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

The key feature is to have a sequential deposits made by "peaceful" repetitive rising and falling of sea level (it means that the land does not move). As a result, such a deposit only happened in a region of stable earth crust, on which volcanic activity is not a likely feature.

Wrong, wrong wrong; your quote that the land does not move has now convinced me you know about as much geology as my 4 years old grandson.

Take the South Wales coal field, which is carboniferous in age and formed within a foreland basin as a result of the Variscan orogeny.

Foreland basin:
Foreland basins form because as the mountain belt grows, it exerts a significant mass on the Earth’s crust, which causes it to bend, or flex, downwards. This occurs so that the weight of the mountain belt can be compensated by isostasy at the upflex of the forebulge.
The plate tectonic evolution of a peripheral foreland basin involves three general stages. First, the passive margin stage with orogenic loading of previously stretched continental margin during the early stages of convergence. Second, the "early convergnece stage defined by deep water conditions", and lastly a "later convergent stage during which a subaerial wedge is flanked with terrestrial or shallow marine foreland basins" (Allen & Allen 2005).
The temperature underneath the orogen is much higher and weakens the lithosphere. Thus, the thrust belt is mobile and the foreland basin system becomes deformed over time. Syntectonic unconformities demonstrate simultaneous subsidence and tectonic activity.
Foreland basins are filled with sediments which erode from the adjacent mountain belt. In the early stages, the foreland basin is said to be underfilled. During this stage, deep water and commonly marine sediments, known as flysch, are deposited. Eventually, the basin becomes completely filled. At this point, the basin enters the overfilled stage and deposition of terrestrial clastic sediments occurs. These are known as molasse. Sediment fill within the foredeep acts as an additional load on the continental lithosphere

LINK

 

[juvenissun]

Wrong, wrong wrong; your quote that the land does not move has now convinced me you know about as much geology as my 4 years old grandson.

Take the South Wales coal field, which is carboniferous in age and formed within a foreland basin as a result of the Variscan orogeny.

A foreland basin does not mean it has to be active. The Atlantic Coast of North America is currently a foreland basin.

My patience to you is getting thin. If you insult me ONE more time, I will not talk to you any more.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

A foreland basin does not mean it has to be active. The Atlantic Coast of North America is currently a foreland basin.

My patience to you is getting thin. If you insult me ONE more time, I will not talk to you any more.

Wrong Wrong Wrong; when will you listen Juv'y. Again your ignorace towards geology is clear for all to see.

No; the Atlantic coast of North America is a passive margin NOT a foreland basin.

A passive margin is the transition between oceanic and continental crust which is not an active plate margin, such as the Atlantic Coast of Norht America. It is constructed by sedimentation above an ancient rift, now marked by transitional crust. Continental rifting creates new ocean basins. Eventually the continental rift forms a mid-oceanic ridge and the locus of extension moves away from the continent-ocean boundary. The transition between the continental and oceanic crust that was originally created by rifting is known as a passive margin.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

A foreland basin does not mean it has to be active. The Atlantic Coast of North America is currently a foreland basin.

My patience to you is getting thin. If you insult me ONE more time, I will not talk to you any more.

Late Carboniferous tectonic subsidence in South Wales: Implications for Variscan basin evolution and tectonic history in SW Britain​

Abstract: Detailed stratigraphic data have been used to backstrip seven sections from the Carboniferous South Wales coal basin. Resulting tectonic subsidence curves for the interval 319-305 Ma (NamurianWestphalian D) are convex-up, indicating increasing subsidence rate with time, with rates between 130 and 250 m Ma-1, suggesting aforeland basin setting. Forward modelling of subsidence due to flexural loading in front of a propagating orogenic wedge shows that an orogenic load migrating in a north-northeasterly direction across SW England between 319 and 305 Ma could have generated the backstripped subsidence patterns. Sensitivity tests show that while many of the forward model parameters are poorly constrained, and the model results non-unique, backstripped subsidence patterns allow reasonable constraint on the different model cases, so that model predictions can be treated as one possibility in a limited range. The predicted load evolution is consistent with current knowledge of tectonic and stratigraphic features of SW England. These results suggest that subsidence in other Late Carboniferous UK basins may also have been influenced by flexure due to a propagating orogenic load.

LINK

Map showing area affected by Variscan orogeny: The South Wales Coal field is located below the R in FORELAND as in BASIN.

Am i educating you yet Juv'y