Creationist explain the Miocene please

[ChordatesLegacy]

The Miocene is a geological period spanning 23.03-5.33 million years ago according to science.

The Miocene according to creationists should not exist at all, because it falls between the 65 Ma KT boundary (upper biblical flood limit) and the present Ice Age deposits, ~ last 2 million years.

According to creationists the Ice Age preceded directly after the flood had ended, in fact some creationists state the Ice Age start before the end of the flood.

So the question is primarily for creationists “how do you explain the Miocene, which from the evidence is a time extremely rich in flora and fauna, much of which is now extinct”, but according to the creationist paradigm show not exist at all.


Miocene megafauna - horses, rhinos, and (center background) mastodons (North America)

Life in Abu Dhabi 8 million years ago (Miocene).




Long gone: a variety of animals from the Miocene, including the mastodon Gomphotherium.

So creationist you have a lot of explaining to do, to fit the Miocene into your already crumbling Parody.

 

[AV1611VET]

So the question is primarily for creationists “how do you explain the Miocene, which from the evidence is a time extremely rich in flora and fauna, much of which is now extinct”, but according to the creationist paradigm show not exist at all.

...

So creationist you have a lot of explaining to do, to fit the Miocene into your already crumbling Parody.

There's nothing like mixing your brand of science into the earth's history, then having us sort it out; is there?

 

[consol]

There's nothing like mixing your brand of science into the earth's history, then having us sort it out; is there?

ChordatesLegacy you will never win against a creationist,
they are not restricted by facts and figures, they can change everything to fit in with anything they want,
they can also change things from day to day as they see fit, whatever the argument,
you get the question and then need to find the answer,
they get the answer and then need to decide which questions it answers,
and if they ever get stuck, the catchall answer is always available, Goddidit.

Little things like details never bother them either, if the main answer brings up a dozen questions,
the dozen questions can be dismissed to make the main answer true,
it's the way of all religions, don't analyse anything, just believe it, right or wrong, just believe it.

It's a marvelous position for all of the leaders to be in,
they have all of their followers hog tied by fear, they need only say something like,

"Question ye not, lest thy questions send you to Hell"

and that shuts them all up.

It's the same with kids, just tell them the boogy man will get them and they do as they're told.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

There's nothing like mixing your brand of science into the earth's history, then having us sort it out; is there?

The geological history is sorted out, since the K-T boundary it goes like this.

However according to creationists the geological column is as follows; with the ice age directly above the flood deposits; as the upper limit of the flood deposits is considered to be the K-T boundary, this leaves 63 million years of history out of the creationist equation.

The Ice Age is represented on the geological column by Pleistocene, so if creationists want to be taken seriously they have to explain how you can have 63 million years of geological and biological history disappear in their geological column.


Miocene: Giant carnivorous ground bird (Phorusrhacus), 1.5 meters tall. These creatures were wholly indigenous to South America (apart from a brief period during the Plio-pleistocene when they wondered as far north as Florida)

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

ChordatesLegacy you will never win against a creationist,
they are not restricted by facts and figures, they can change everything to fit in with anything they want,
they can also change things from day to day as they see fit, whatever the argument,
you get the question and then need to find the answer,
they get the answer and then need to decide which questions it answers,
and if they ever get stuck, the catchall answer is always available, Goddidit.

Little things like details never bother them either, if the main answer brings up a dozen questions,
the dozen questions can be dismissed to make the main answer true,
it's the way of all religions, don't analyse anything, just believe it, right or wrong, just believe it.

It's a marvelous position for all of the leaders to be in,
they have all of their followers hog tied by fear, they need only say something like,

"Question ye not, lest thy questions send you to Hell"

and that shuts them all up.

It's the same with kids, just tell them the boogy man will get them and they do as they're told.

I am not trying to change the minds of the indoctrinated creationists that post here. What I post is aimed at the doubting creationists, to show them the evidence and how the creationist powers are lying and manipulating them.

Aim your posts at the lurkers

 

[consol]

Aim your posts at the lurkers

It WAS aimed at the lurkers because I know you already know you will never change the minds of the indoctrinated creationists,
they're lost beyond hope, but I had to point it at you because you started the thread.

Who cares about them anyway? their parents obviously want them to be as thick as <staff edit>,
they live in areas where being as thick as <staff edit> is the norm, with brains they would feel out of place,
how in the name of all that's right can people even think about being creationists?
what's wrong with them? they must be the most stupid people in the world.

America must be very proud of them, freedom personified, they are free to be as thick as they like,
sod the country they live in, their mythical God must come first.

God help America.

 

[Split Rock]

There's nothing like mixing your brand of science into the earth's history, then having us sort it out; is there?

You mean like asking us if angels are animlas?

 

[RobertByers]

Chordateslegacy
No problem.
Its the very subject that interests me for many reasons.
Unlike many creationists I see the time after the flood as the time above the k-t boundary. The ice age only suddenly happened about 1800 B.c or so. So some 400 -600 years for the warm world represented by the miocene etc fauna/flora.
The fossils from the miocene are actually from a single short period just prior to the ice age.All these divisions are just misinterpretations of earth movements of sediment.
The fossils of fauna are from animals caught suddenly in volcanic or sediment overflows. They show the creatures then upon the earth. In fact the ones in Americas show a discernable present relationship with the remnant today. I would also add I need these miocene etc fossils to make my case that sameshaped creatures are the same.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Chordateslegacy
No problem.
Its the very subject that interests me for many reasons.
Unlike many creationists I see the time after the flood as the time above the k-t boundary. The ice age only suddenly happened about 1800 B.c or so. So some 400 -600 years for the warm world represented by the miocene etc fauna/flora.
The fossils from the miocene are actually from a single short period just prior to the ice age.All these divisions are just misinterpretations of earth movements of sediment.
The fossils of fauna are from animals caught suddenly in volcanic or sediment overflows. They show the creatures then upon the earth. In fact the ones in Americas show a discernable present relationship with the remnant today. I would also add I need these miocene etc fossils to make my case that sameshaped creatures are the same.

OK let&#8217;s look at the Cenozoic era, the first Epoch is the Paleocene 65.5-55.5, (Rob feel free to give us your time frame for the Paleocene) and what it can tell us about that time.

For one thing the Cenozoic fossil record contains the first large (Larger than humans) mammals, here are a few, none of which occur today.


LINK

Restorations of some pantodonts of the North American Paleocene. A. Coryphodon. B. Barylambda. C Titanoides primaevus. D. Caenolambda. E. Pantolambda cavirictus. E. Pantolambda bathmodon. After Simons (1960).

Titanoides, an animal of approximately 150 kg, had saberlike upper canines, large front limbs and strong claws at its feet. No mammal of today has a comparable anatomy of the limbs, but several extinct groups like the Eocene to Pleistocene chalicotheres show similar adaptations. Titanoides may have utilized its claws to dig for food or to tear tough plants.

Life restoration of Titanoides primaevus. With its claws the animal may have laid bare underground roots and tubers, which were then pulled up by the hooklike lower canines and sliced off by the sabrelike upper canines. Copyright by Kelly Taylor.


Below is a very well preserved and fossilised Paleocene mammal, fossilisation like this takes time, far more time than there is in the creationist model.

Skeleton of the apatemyid Apatemys chardini, preserved together with the fish Knightia eocaenica in the Early Eocene lake sediments of the Fossil Butte Member, Wyoming. The skull is surprisingly masssive for such a delicate skeleton, and the tail is extremely long. Photo J. Weinstein, provided by W. von Koenigswald.

NONE OF THESE MAMMALS ARE EXTANT TODAY.

and then there's Paleocene geology.

Outcrop of coal in Goodlands Member (Turtle Mountain Fm), in a creek bank, W of Hwy 21, near Turtle Mountain, MB. Early Paleocene lignite (brown coal) was mined here 1890-1943. These coals contain a well preserved microflora. Sept. 16, 2005.

The K-T boundary. The light brown sediment is from the late cretaceous. The gray line represents the K-T boundary, when an asteroid the size of Mt. Everest slammed into earth, bringing an end to the dinosaur's reign. the boundary is rich in iridium, a substance rare on earth but abundant in asteroids and comets, supporting the impact theory. The black sediment is from a Paleocene coal swamp, when mammals began to take over after the dinosaurs.

Peat exposed to heat and pressure from burial beneath other sediments becomes compressed and chemicaly changes into low grade coals such as this lignite, and under further heat and pressure is converted to higher grade coals. The pressure from overlying sediments that bury a peat bed will compact the coal. Peats transform to low grade lignites when they are compressed to about 20% of their original thickness. Lignite typicaly transforms to bituminous coal as it is compressed further and heated to between 100 and 200°C. This drives much of the water and other volitiles from the coal. Longer exposure to elevated temperature will further drive volatiles from the coal, and drive chemical reactions that produce anthracite. Anthracite coals are typicaly compressed to 5-10% of the orginal thickness of the peat bed, and contain less than 10% water and other volatiles (Nichols, 1999).


So a couple of questions.

Your time frame for the Paleocene.

How the mammal fauna is so different to that seen today

How you can have coal formation and the geological sequence in the creationist time frame.

Please stick to the Paleocene for now

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

The following image is of Upper Paleocene and Lower Eocene sediments 2200 metres thick, also there are numerous mature palaeosols, each palaeosol would take several hundred years to form, thus this whole section would at the very least taken thousands of year to form.

University of Michigan fossil localities at the south end of Polecat Bench. Lower drab sandstones and mudstones yield Clarkforkian latest Paleocene mammals. Thirty meter thick bright red interval yields Wa-0 mammals. Upper drab sandstones and mudstones yield Wasatchian early Eocene mammals. Note the excellent exposure and lateral persistence of fossil beds. Photograph ©2006 Philip Gingerich. Figure may be reproduced for non-profit educational use.

University of Michigan fossil localities at the south end of Polecat Bench. Lower drab sandstones and mudstones yield Clarkforkian latest Paleocene mammals. Thirty meter thick bright red interval yields Wa-0 mammals. Upper drab sandstones and mudstones yield Wasatchian early Eocene mammals. Note the excellent exposure and lateral persistence of fossil beds. Photograph ©2006 Philip Gingerich. Figure may be reproduced for non-profit educational use.

The Wa-0 monograph showed that: (1) Wa-0 mammals are found in a narrow 30 meter-thick stratigraphic interval that has unusually mature red paleosols (30 m out of ca. 2200 m of upper Paleocene and lower Eocene section);

LINK

Red beds in Paleocene-Eocene boundary thermal maximum, at Polecat Bench, Bighorn Basin, Wyoming

LINK


There is not enough time in the creationist paradigm for the observed geology and evolutionary biology.

and of course there were the giant birds.

The diatrymas terror birds were among the largest, if not the largest birds alive during the Paleogene. They had few natural enemies and serious competitors apart from other terror birds Gastornis or the few and then-rare large mammals, such as the predatory bear-like Arctocyon of Europe.

If these huge terror birds were active hunters, they must have been important apex predators that dominated the forest ecosystems of North America and Europe until the Middle Eocene

LINK

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

To Rob Byers.

How much time does your creationist time scale give to thr Paleocene. Look at the section below, it has quite a complicated geological history (Spain).

Upper Danian (right), Selandian and lower Thanetian (left) at the Zumaya section, Spain

LINK


Also creationists need to explain the mammal fauna, which they just avoid.


Phenacodontids were the dominant mammals in the latest Paleocene of North America and account for up to 50% of all mammal specimens in faunas of that age. Both Phenacodus and Ectocion survive until the middle Eocene, but phenacodontids become less common after the end of the Paleocene. Remarkable exceptions are local mass occurrences of the dog-sized phenacodontid Meniscotherium which forms real bonebeds in some places. Meniscotherium is mainly early Eocene in age, although first individuals may already have been present in the latest Paleocene. Phenacodus spread into Europe in the early Eocene as part of a major faunal exchange between the Old and New World, but it never became an important component of the European fauna.

Reconstruction of the late Paleocene to middle Eocene Phenacodus, a sheep-sized herbivore with improved capabilities for running. From Savage & Long (1986).

LINK

 

[dad]

The Miocene is a geological period spanning 23.03-5.33 million years ago according to science.

The Miocene according to creationists should not exist at all, because it falls between the 65 Ma KT boundary (upper biblical flood limit) and the present Ice Age deposits, ~ last 2 million years.

According to creationists the Ice Age preceded directly after the flood had ended, in fact some creationists state the Ice Age start before the end of the flood.

So the question is primarily for creationists “how do you explain the Miocene, which from the evidence is a time extremely rich in flora and fauna, much of which is now extinct”, but according to the creationist paradigm show not exist at all.


Miocene megafauna - horses, rhinos, and (center background) mastodons (North America)

Life in Abu Dhabi 8 million years ago (Miocene).




Long gone: a variety of animals from the Miocene, including the mastodon Gomphotherium.

So creationist you have a lot of explaining to do, to fit the Miocene into your already crumbling Parody.

Piece of cake. First off, support your claims of how and why the dates are given for the age, and the length of the ice age you claimed. Otherwise, of course, you have no case at all.

 

[biggles53]

Piece of cake. First off, support your claims of how and why the dates are given for the age, and the length of the ice age you claimed. Otherwise, of course, you have no case at all.

Piece of cake. The dating of the rocks in which the fossils from that age are found, indicates that age. Furthermore, the order in which the fossils are found matches the order in which the rock formation are laid down. Furthermore ice core samples.....and so on.

 

[dad]

Piece of cake. The dating of the rocks in which the fossils from that age are found, indicates that age.

In other words the assumption of a same state, with the decay. Meaningless unless you have support. Reading tea leaves, or material ratios in rocks as if they are all there due to some imaginary state past can't help you. If the daughter material was there, it didn't come from (as it now does come from, in this state) a decaying.

Furthermore, the order in which the fossils are found matches the order in which the rock formation are laid down.

Meaning what, exactly?? Fossils are in layers, of course! So???! A migration from Eden would leave that, in a different past. That is grist for my mill.

Furthermore ice core samples.....and so on.

What samples, and what about them, and so on???? Keep it real. Keep it relevant.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Piece of cake. First off, support your claims of how and why the dates are given for the age, and the length of the ice age you claimed. Otherwise, of course, you have no case at all.

OK DAD; The first date is the K-T boundary; which according to ROB BYERS and other creationists is the marker bed for the end of the biblical flood.

To scientists the K-T boundary is the marker bed for a meteorite impact.
The K-T boundary separates the age of the reptiles and the age of the mammals, which was first recognized over one hundred years ago by geologists who realized that there was a dramatic change in the types of fossils deposited on either side of this boundary. This boundary also separates two of the three eras of the Phanerozoic (see time scale at left), which is the time in earth history that began with the origin of complex life and extends to the present. These two eras are called the Mesozoic and Cenozoic. Dinosaurs were prevalent during the Mesozoic Era and extinct during the Cenozoic Era. The last segment of the Mesozoic Era, from 135 to 65 millions of years ago, is called the Cretaceous Period. The first segment of the Cenozoic Era, from 65 million years ago until the present, is called the Tertiary Period. The abbreviation for the boundary between the Cretaceous and Tertiary periods is the K-T boundary, where K is the abbreviation for the German form of the word Cretaceous.

This boundary corresponds to one of the greatest mass extinctions in Earth's history. At least 75 percent of the species on our planet, both in the seas and on the continents, were extinguished forever. The most famous of the vanquished are the dinosaurs. However, these giants were only a small fraction of the plants and animals that disappeared. In the oceans, more than 90 percent of the plankton was extinguished, which inevitably led to the collapse of the oceanic food chain.

Rocks deposited during the Cretaceous Period and Tertiary Period are separated by a thin clay layer that is visible at several sites around the world. A team of scientists led by Luis Alvarez (a Nobel Prize-winning physicist) and his son Walter (a geologist) discovered that the clay layer contains a strikingly high concentration of iridium, an element that is much more common in meteorites than in Earth's crustal rocks. Like meteorites, asteroids and comets also have relatively large abundances of iridium. Consequently, they proposed that an impacting asteroid or comet hit the Earth, generating the iridium anomaly, and causing the mass extinction event. The discovery of high iridium concentrations in the clay layer at several places around the world suggested the impact was a large one.

LINK



An image of the Chicxulub crater, on the northern coast of the Yucatán Peninsula in Mexico, was generated on a computer from gravity and magnetic-field data. The buried structure, which measures at least 112 miles (180 kilometers) across, is thought to be the scar remaining from the impact some 65 million years ago of an asteroid or comet measuring perhaps 6 miles (10 kilometers) in diameter. The Yucatán coastline bisects the crater through its center.

The impactor's estimated size was about 10 km (6 mi) in diameter and may have released an estimated 400 zettajoules (4×1023 joules) of energy, equivalent to 100 teratons of TNT (1014 tons),[16] on impact. By contrast, the most powerful man-made explosive device ever detonated, the Tsar Bomba or Emperor Bomb, had a yield of only 50 megatons,[17] making the Chicxulub impact 2 million times more powerful.[18] Even the largest known explosive volcanic eruption, which released approximately 10 zettajoules and created the La Garita Caldera,[19] was substantially less powerful than the Chicxulub impact.

Effects
The impact caused some of the largest megatsunamis in Earth's history. A cloud of dust, ash and steam would have spread from the crater, as the impactor burrowed underground in less than a second.[20] Excavated material along with pieces of the impactor, ejected out of the atmosphere by the blast, would have been heated to incandescence upon re-entry, broiling the Earth's surface and igniting global wildfires; meanwhile, shock waves spawned global earthquakes and volcanic eruptions.[21] The emission of dust and particles could have covered the entire surface of the Earth for several years, possibly a decade, creating a harsh environment for living things to survive in. The shock production of carbon dioxide caused by the destruction of carbonate rocks would have led to a dramatic greenhouse effect.[22] Another consequence of the impact is that sunlight would have been blocked from reaching the surface of the earth by the dust particles in the atmosphere, cooling the surface dramatically. Photosynthesis by plants would also have been interrupted, affecting the entire food chain.[23][24]

3) Crater lithology
Decades ago PEMEX, the Mexican National Oil Company had drilled the Chicxulub gravity low for oil exploration purposes. Some of the cores were preserved (Fig. 6) and their study provides a glimpse of the crater lithology. The C-1 well lies near the central uplift of the crater, Y6 in the peak ring, approximately 50 km SW of C1.

Stratigraphy of core Yucatan 6 and Chicxulub 1 (click on image to zoom).
Between 1100 and 1256 m well Y6 encountered suevitic breccias(Fig. 7). A suevite is a typical impact breccia containing melt particles and a mixture of fragments from the target rock. This lithology was first defined at the Ries crater in Germany. The Chicxulub suevite is stratified (Fig. 8). The upper part of the Chicxulub suevite is composed of carbonate, basement clasts and melt particles floating in a fine calcite, quartz, and feldspar matrix. Only a small fraction of the clasts are composed of anhydrite. The carbonate-rich composition of the suevite is unusual compared to other craters and reflects the composition of the upper part of the Yucatan target rock. Approximately 5 % of the clasts have a characteristic feathery calcite texture (Fig. 9) indicative of rapid quenching from a carbonate melt. The presence of carbonate melt and the scarcity of evaporite clasts must be taken into account when estimating the amount of CO2 and SOx vaporized. Below 1253 m the proportion of silicate melt and basement fragments increases strongly, and the amount of carbonate decreases. Many of the quartz grains are recrystallized, others show planar deformation features (pdf's) or mosaicism indicative of shock metamorphism (Fig. 10).
Below the suevite is a characteristic impact melt-rock(Fig. 11) formed by partially or totally melted basement clasts floating in a cryptocrystalline matrix rich in glass, feldspars and Ca-rich pyroxene (Schuraytz et al., 1994; Warren et al., 1996). This lithology is typical of large impact craters such as Sudbury in Canada. It results from the fusion of the target rock under the huge pressure and temperature induced by the impact. The total volume of impact melt produced is estimated over 2.0x104 km3 (Kring, 1995). The coarser-grained composition of C1 resemble the impact rocks of the crater Manicouagan in Canada (Floran et al. , 1978; Simonds et al., 1978). Whereas Y6 melt rocks are more like the typical melt-rock seen in Lappajärvi crater (Finland) (Bischoff and Stoeffler, 1984).

LINK


So there you have it DAD, with evidence the K-T boundary is the world wide manifestation of a massive impact which hit Mexico and helped to wipe out the dinosaur. This iridium layer is the lower boundary for the Paleocene and marks the start of the rise of mammals.

 

[dad]

OK DAD; The first date is the K-T boundary; which according to ROB BYERS and other creationists is the marker bed for the end of the biblical flood.

OK. Let's see what you got.

To scientists the K-T boundary is the marker bed for a meteorite impact.

If the flood, or split sent up material, meteors are expected. However, prove that this site is from that??/ I suspect it was a fountain of the deep. Better dredge up your impacted quartz, or whatever you can grab hold of here.

The K-T boundary separates the age of the reptiles and the age of the mammals, which was first recognized over one hundred years ago by geologists who realized that there was a dramatic change in the types of fossils deposited on either side of this boundary.

A dramatic change could be linked to a flood, and different realities on the ground after.

This boundary also separates two of the three eras of the Phanerozoic (see time scale at left), which is the time in earth history that began with the origin of complex life and extends to the present. These two eras are called the Mesozoic and Cenozoic. Dinosaurs were prevalent during the Mesozoic Era and extinct during the Cenozoic Era. The last segment of the Mesozoic Era, from 135 to 65 millions of years ago, is called the Cretaceous Period. The first segment of the Cenozoic Era, from 65 million years ago until the present, is called the Tertiary Period. The abbreviation for the boundary between the Cretaceous and Tertiary periods is the K-T boundary, where K is the abbreviation for the German form of the word Cretaceous.

Great. So some big changes are represented here. So??

This boundary corresponds to one of the greatest mass extinctions in Earth's history.

Would not the flood do that as well????

At least 75 percent of the species on our planet, both in the seas and on the continents, were extinguished forever. The most famous of the vanquished are the dinosaurs. However, these giants were only a small fraction of the plants and animals that disappeared. In the oceans, more than 90 percent of the plankton was extinguished, which inevitably led to the collapse of the oceanic food chain.

Hold on. Prove it!! How do you know that the food chain in the ocean collapsed?

Rocks deposited during the Cretaceous Period and Tertiary Period are separated by a thin clay layer that is visible at several sites around the world. A team of scientists led by Luis Alvarez (a Nobel Prize-winning physicist) and his son Walter (a geologist) discovered that the clay layer contains a strikingly high concentration of iridium, an element that is much more common in meteorites than in Earth's crustal rocks.

Therefore, if the fountains of the DEEP erupted, and the waters from ABOVE came down, iridium is what we would expect. So????

Like meteorites, asteroids and comets also have relatively large abundances of iridium. Consequently, they proposed that an impacting asteroid or comet hit the Earth, generating the iridium anomaly, and causing the mass extinction event. The discovery of high iridium concentrations in the clay layer at several places around the world suggested the impact was a large one.

They may propose. But we may ask why.

<b><b>An image of the Chicxulub crater, on the northern coast of the Yucatán Peninsula in Mexico, was generated on a computer from gravity and magnetic-field data. The buried structure, which measures at least 112 miles (180 kilometers) across, is thought to be the scar remaining from the impact some 65 million years ago of an asteroid or comet measuring perhaps 6 miles (10 kilometers) in diameter. The Yucatán coastline bisects the crater through its center.

Fountain of the deep?

The impactor's estimated size was about 10 km (6 mi) in diameter and may have released an estimated 400 zettajoules (4×1023 joules) of energy, equivalent to 100 teratons of TNT (1014 tons),[16] on impact.

Based on what??? Assuming sane state physics, and that the structure was an impact? Better prove that.

The impact caused some of the largest megatsunamis in Earth's history.

So, the water got ruffled. What water? Give us the proof if there is any.

A cloud of dust, ash and steam would have spread from the crater, as the impactor burrowed underground in less than a second.

IF it was an impact, and IF it was in this present state, and IF..... ad infinitum.

[20] Excavated material along with pieces of the impactor, ejected out of the atmosphere by the blast, would have been heated to incandescence upon re-entry, broiling the Earth's surface and igniting global wildfires;

All in the head. Prove the fires? Got one in China at the time?

meanwhile,

shock waves spawned global earthquakes and volcanic eruptions.[21] The emission of dust and particles could have covered the entire surface of the Earth for several years, possibly a decade, creating a harsh environment for living things to survive in.

In your dreams! Woulda coulda shoulda! Prove it!

The shock production of

carbon dioxide caused by the destruction of carbonate rocks would have led to a dramatic greenhouse effect.[22] Another consequence of the impact is that sunlight would have been blocked from reaching the surface of the earth by the dust particles in the atmosphere, cooling the surface dramatically.

Same state past religion. Pathetic.

Photosynthesis by plants would also have been interrupted, affecting the entire food chain.[23][24]

IF this IF that, theoretically the food chain would be bothered, blah, blah... Prove it? A flood would have bothered the food chain. So?

target="_blank">(Fig. 6) and their study provides a glimpse of the crater lithology. The C-1 well lies near the central uplift of the crater, Y6 in the peak ring, approximately 50 km SW of C1.

So? Fountains of the deep would not do that??

A suevite is a typical impact breccia containing melt particles and a mixture of fragments from the target rock. This lithology was first defined at the Ries crater in Germany. The Chicxulub suevite is stratified

(Fig. 8). The upper part of the Chicxulub suevite is composed of carbonate, basement clasts and melt particles floating in a fine calcite, quartz, and feldspar matrix. Only a small fraction of the clasts are composed of anhydrite. The carbonate-rich composition of the suevite is unusual compared to other craters and reflects the composition of the upper part of the Yucatan target rock. Approximately 5 % of the clasts have a characteristic feathery calcite texture (Fig. 9) indicative of rapid quenching from a carbonate melt.

Or a rapid upshoot of water? Or debris falling back down, at flood time? Or a different past clast blast? Or....???? Nothing locks what we see into what your same state past myth imagines!!!

The presence of carbonate melt and the scarcity of evaporite clasts must be taken into account when estimating the amount of CO

So we need to imagine present laws, and an imaginary blast in a present state, and certain CO levels now. OK. Bad religion!

... Below 1253 m the proportion of silicate melt and basement fragments increases strongly, and the amount of carbonate decreases.

So, the carbonate from above decreases as we get below. Sounds normal to me??

Many of the quartz grains are recrystallized, others show planar deformation features (pdf's) or mosaicism indicative of shock metamorphism

(Fig. 10).
<font size="3">Below the suevite is a characteristic impact melt-rock(Fig. 11)<font face="Arial"> formed by partially or totally melted basement clasts floating in a cryptocrystalline matrix rich in glass, feldspars and Ca-rich pyroxene (Schuraytz et al., 1994; Warren et al., 1996).

So it was a violent affair, the foundations of the deep exploding from below, or etc. OK. Duh, ya think??

This lithology is typical of large impact craters such as Sudbury in Canada.

Another claimed crater, similar questions need to be asked.

It results from the fusion of the target rock under the huge pressure and temperature induced by the impact.

Impact from below or above is the question. We do not know seems to be the answer.

So there you have it DAD, with evidence the K-T boundary is the world wide manifestation of a massive impact which hit Mexico and help ed to wipe out the dinosaur. This iridium layer is the lower boundary for the Paleocene and marks the start of the rise of mammals.

[/quote] Start of mammals? Or start of finding dead ones??

 

[Cabal]

Piece of cake. First off, support your claims of how and why the dates are given for the age, and the length of the ice age you claimed. Otherwise, of course, you have no case at all.

Can creationists come up with any scientific explanations of their own instead of just claiming to be whatever evolution isn't, or deflecting the argument?

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

OK. Let's see what you got. If the flood, or split sent up material, meteors are expected. However, prove that this site is from that??/ I suspect it was a fountain of the deep. Better dredge up your impacted quartz, or whatever you can grab hold of here. A dramatic change could be linked to a flood, and different realities on the ground after. Great. So some big changes are represented here. So?? Would not the flood do that as well???? Hold on. Prove it!! How do you know that the food chain in the ocean collapsed? Therefore, if the fountains of the DEEP erupted, and the waters from ABOVE came down, iridium is what we would expect. So???? They may propose. But we may ask why. Fountain of the deep? Based on what??? Assuming sane state physics, and that the structure was an impact? Better prove that. So, the water got ruffled. What water? Give us the proof if there is any. IF it was an impact, and IF it was in this present state, and IF..... ad infinitum. All in the head. Prove the fires? Got one in China at the time? In your dreams! Woulda coulda shoulda! Prove it! Same state past religion. Pathetic. IF this IF that, theoretically the food chain would be bothered, blah, blah... Prove it? A flood would have bothered the food chain. So? So? Fountains of the deep would not do that?? Or a rapid upshoot of water? Or debris falling back down, at flood time? Or a different past clast blast? Or....???? Nothing locks what we see into what your same state past myth imagines!!! So we need to imagine present laws, and an imaginary blast in a present state, and certain CO levels now. OK. Bad religion! So, the carbonate from above decreases as we get below. Sounds normal to me?? So it was a violent affair, the foundations of the deep exploding from below, or etc. OK. Duh, ya think?? Another claimed crater, similar questions need to be asked. Impact from below or above is the question. We do not know seems to be the answer.

Start of mammals? Or start of finding dead ones??[/quote]

DAD all you do is spout rhetoric and make idiotic suggestions, whereas I supplied evidence for my stand point.

The K-T boundary is real.

The iridium layer is real

Dinosaurs going extinct is real

The rise of mammals is real.

The Mesozoic sediments are full of terrestrial fossils and trace fossils, all shown in other threads.

Now for once DAD instead of poorly thought out attacks on sciences, give your position.

Is the K-T boundary the marker for the end of the flood; then we can look at Tertiary sediments and fossil record and see if you can fit it into a couple of hundred years that would be the case if creationist mythology is correct.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Below are some of the first sediment deposits above the K-T boundary, which belong to the Paleocene 65.5-55.8 ma according to science.

View of Angel Peak from the campground. The "angel" is made of sandstone in the Cuba Mesa Member of the Eocene San Jose Formation, which is sitting on siltstone and fine sandstone of the Paleocene Nacimiento Formation. Photograph by Richard Kelley.

LINK

The Paleocene-Eocene Maiz Gordo Formation is well exposed in Salta Basin, northwest Argentina, here shown with Marcos Asensio and Rafael Rodgriguez-Brizuela in the foreground. Our field team, also now including Marcelo Krause, has expanded these studies into Patagonia and will work in the intervening basins in the coming year. The blue-gray horizon in the middle of the photograph is the Paleocene-Eocene boundary paleosol standing in marked contrast to the surrounding red calcic aridisols.

LINK

There are extensive world wide Paleocene sedimentary deposits; which were deposited over a 10 million year period, along with the early rise of mammals as the dominant species on Earth.

What I need from creationists is their time line from the K-T boundary onwards, or agreement from creationists that the following time line is their view of Earth&#8217;s history, and how they explain Tertiary geological history, because quite frankly all creationists do is hand wave, so here&#8217;s your chance to explain what is see in the geological record.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Piece of cake. First off, support your claims of how and why the dates are given for the age, and the length of the ice age you claimed. Otherwise, of course, you have no case at all.

Here we are DAD a list of published papers on the K-T boundary, so i am supporting my claims, but i bet you want read one of them.

References


1. L.W. Alvarez, W. Alvarez, F. Asaro and H.V. Michel, Extraterrestrial cause for the Cretaceous Tertiary extinction. Science 208 (1980), pp. 1095–1108.


2. J. Smit, The global stratigraphy of the Cretaceous–Tertiary boundary impact ejecta. Annu. Rev. Earth Planet. Sci. 27 (1999), pp. 75–113. Full Text via CrossRef | View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (98)


3. C.C. Swisher, J.M. Grajales-Nishimura, A. Montanari, S.V. Margoliss, P. Claeys, W. Alvarez, P. Renne, E. Cedillo-Pardo, F.J.-M.R. Maurrasse, G.H. Curtis, J. Smit and M.O. McWilliams, Coeval 40Ar/39Ar ages of 65.0 million years ago from Chicxulub Crater melt rocks and Cretaceous–Tertiary boundary tektites. Science 257 (1992), pp. 954–958. View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (120)


4. A.R. Hildebrand, G.T. Penfield, D.A. Kring, M. Pilkington, A.Z. Camargo, S.B. Jacobsen and W.V. Boynton, Chicxulub Crater: a possible Cretaceous/Tertiary boundary impact crater on the Yucatan Peninsula, Mexico. Geology 19 (1991), pp. 867–871. Full Text via CrossRef | View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (256)


5. C.J. Orth, J.S. Gilmore and J.D. Knight, Iridium anomaly at the Cretaceous–Tertiary boundary in the Raton Basin. Filed Conf. Guidebook N.M. Geol. Soc. 38 (1987), pp. 265–269.


6. A.R. Hildebrand and W.V. Boyton, Proximal Cretaceous–Tertiary boundary impact deposits in the Caribbean. Science 248 (1990), pp. 843–847. View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (50)


7. A.M. Vickery, D.A. Kring and H.J. Melosh, Ejecta associated with large terrestrial impacts: Implications for the Chicxulub impact and K/T boundary stratigraphy. Lunar Planet. Sci. XXIII (1992), pp. 1473–1474.


8. D.A. Kring, The Chicxulub impact event and possible causes of K/T boundary extinctions, in: D. Boaz, M. Doman (Eds.), Proceedings First Annual Symposium of Fossils of Arizona. Mesa Southwest Museum and Southwest Paleontological Society, Mesa, AZ, 1993, pp. 63–79.


9. R.M. Pollastro and B.F. Bohor, Origin and clay-mineral genesis of the Cretaceous–Tertiary boundary unit, Western Interior of North America. Clays Clay Miner. 41 (1993), pp. 7–25.


10. D.A. Kring, A.R. Hildebrand and W.V. Boynton, Provenance of mineral phases in the Cretaceous–Tertiary boundary sediments exposed on the southern peninsula of Haiti. Earth Planet. Sci. Lett. 128 (1994), pp. 629–641. Abstract | View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (10)


So DAD where is your evidence,links will do and i will have a read.