Zoar

[TrustAndObey]

I have said over and over again I am convinced. I said I am testing presuppositions.

Now as to the guidelines, nothing in them prevents teaching in the debate area.

Non-members can post fellowship threads. Even though we allow debate, our rules say nothing about allowing teaching by non-members.

 

[tall73]

Non-members can post fellowship threads. Even though we allow debate, our rules say nothing about allowing teaching by non-members.

From the FSG's:

The Debate/Discussion subforum allows debate by both members and non-members.

You may be confusing this with the traditional forum Guidelines:

• The Traditional SDA subforum is limited to debate among those Seventh-day Adventists who agree with all 28 Fundamental Beliefs. Non-members may only post in fellowship.
  

 

[TrustAndObey]

You're not debating. You're teaching.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Or at least trying to.

 

[tall73]

Trust, the CF definition for debate is the opposite of the one for fellowship.

Debate takes in teaching. In fact the whole premise of debate is disagreeing positions.

And yes, I am debating and teaching and both are allowed here.

 

[honorthesabbath]

Sorry Tall and friends--you are BUSTED yet again with the TRUTH!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah
Sodom was one of a group of five towns, the Pentapolis (Wisdom 10:6): Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim, and Bela -- also called Zoar (Genesis 19:22). The Pentapolis region is also collectively referred to as "the Cities of the Plain" (Genesis 13:12) since they were all sited on the plain of the Jordan River, in an area that constituted the southern limit of the lands of the Canaanites (Genesis 10:19). Lot, a nephew of Abram (Abraham) chose to live in Sodom, because of the proximity of good grazing for his flocks (Genesis 13:5-11).


The view of Josephus

Now this country is then so sadly burnt up, that nobody cares to come to it... It was of old a most happy land, both for the fruits it bore and the riches of its cities, although it be now all burnt up. It is related how for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by lightning; in consequence of which there are still the remainders of that divine fire; and the shadows of the five cities are still to be seen, as well as the ashes growing in their fruits, which fruits have a colour as if they were fit to be eaten: but if you pluck them with your hands, they will disolve into smoke and ashes
—The Wars of the Jews, book 4, chapter 8.


If EGW was wrong about Zoar (Bela), then so is this guy…http://www.abiblestudy.com/part2.html

Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed

Sometime between 1892-1891 B.C. God destroyed five cities, including Sodom and Gomorrah, for their rampant homosexuality, and general wickedness. Only Lot and his two daughters escaped. His sons-in-law thought he was joking, or out of his mind, when told to leave the city and did not heed his warning. Lots wife was turned into a "pillar of salt" because she disobeyed God's word not to look back at the conflagration. Lot's two daughters got him drunk and had sexual relations with him and in doing so created the nations of Moab and Ammon (modern Jordan) from the two sons born of these incestuous unions. [Gen 19]
Shem 549 / Salah 405 / Eber 384 / Abraham 99 / Sarah 89 / Ishmael 13

 

[tall73]

See below

 

[NightEternal]

Sorry Tall and friends--you are BUSTED yet again with the TRUTH!!!!

You wish. In order for this statement to qualify as truth you would have had to have done it the first time, which you did not. Neither have you done it here.

Try again.

 

[tall73]

You should read a bit more of Josephus:

Now he and his daughters fled to a certain small place, encompassed with the fire, and settled in it: it is to this day called Zoar, for that is the word which the Hebrews use for a small thing. There it was that he lived a miserable life, on account of his having no company, and his want of provisions.
Antiquities 1, 11:4

 

[mva1985]

Sorry Tall and friends--you are BUSTED yet again with the TRUTH!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah
Sodom was one of a group of five towns, the Pentapolis (Wisdom 10:6): Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim, and Bela -- also called Zoar (Genesis 19:22). The Pentapolis region is also collectively referred to as "the Cities of the Plain" (Genesis 13:12) since they were all sited on the plain of the Jordan River, in an area that constituted the southern limit of the lands of the Canaanites (Genesis 10:19). Lot, a nephew of Abram (Abraham) chose to live in Sodom, because of the proximity of good grazing for his flocks (Genesis 13:5-11).


The view of Josephus

Now this country is then so sadly burnt up, that nobody cares to come to it... It was of old a most happy land, both for the fruits it bore and the riches of its cities, although it be now all burnt up. It is related how for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by lightning; in consequence of which there are still the remainders of that divine fire; and the shadows of the five cities are still to be seen, as well as the ashes growing in their fruits, which fruits have a colour as if they were fit to be eaten: but if you pluck them with your hands, they will disolve into smoke and ashes
—The Wars of the Jews, book 4, chapter 8.


If EGW was wrong about Zoar (Bela), then so is this guy…http://www.abiblestudy.com/part2.html

Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed

Sometime between 1892-1891 B.C. God destroyed five cities, including Sodom and Gomorrah, for their rampant homosexuality, and general wickedness. Only Lot and his two daughters escaped. His sons-in-law thought he was joking, or out of his mind, when told to leave the city and did not heed his warning. Lots wife was turned into a "pillar of salt" because she disobeyed God's word not to look back at the conflagration. Lot's two daughters got him drunk and had sexual relations with him and in doing so created the nations of Moab and Ammon (modern Jordan) from the two sons born of these incestuous unions. [Gen 19]
Shem 549 / Salah 405 / Eber 384 / Abraham 99 / Sarah 89 / Ishmael 13

Very interesting....

 

[tall73]

More clarification:



The length of this lake is five hundred and eighty furlongs, where it is extended as far as Zoar in Arabia; and its breadth is a hundred and fifty. The country of Sodom borders upon it. It was of old a most happy land, both for the fruits it bore and the riches of its cities, although it be now all burnt up. It is related how, for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by lightning; in consequence of which there are still the remainders of that Divine fire, and the traces [or shadows] of the five cities are still to be seen, as well as the ashes growing in their fruits; which fruits have a color as if they were fit to be eaten, but if you pluck them with your hands, they dissolve into smoke and ashes. And thus what is related of this land of Sodom hath these marks of credibility which our very sight affords us.
Wars of the Jews 4, 8:4

He still references Zoar as existing by the Sea, then says that Sodom borders the sea and there are remains of five cities. So why did you quote that passage and leave out the sentence about Zoar immediately before it?

So actually Josephus makes two references to Zoar, one even saying it is still called the same to that day.


Now he and his daughters fled to a certain small place, encompassed with the fire, and settled in it: it is to this day called Zoar, for that is the word which the Hebrews use for a small thing. There it was that he lived a miserable life, on account of his having no company, and his want of provisions.
Antiquities 1, 11:4

 

[tall73]

Very interesting....

It is interesting that she took out the sentence mentioning Zoar right before the one she quoted.

 

[tall73]

Eusebius mentions it as well:


Bala."That is Sigor It is now called Zoora (Zoara) the only one of the territory of Sodom which escaped. It is now inhabited in the vicinity of the Dead Sea. A garrison of soldiers is there.
Eusebius, Onomasticon

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Sorry Tall and friends--you are BUSTED yet again with the TRUTH!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah
Sodom was one of a group of five towns, the Pentapolis (Wisdom 10:6): Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim, and Bela -- also called Zoar (Genesis 19:22). The Pentapolis region is also collectively referred to as "the Cities of the Plain" (Genesis 13:12) since they were all sited on the plain of the Jordan River, in an area that constituted the southern limit of the lands of the Canaanites (Genesis 10:19). Lot, a nephew of Abram (Abraham) chose to live in Sodom, because of the proximity of good grazing for his flocks (Genesis 13:5-11).

This is where it gets good now people are starting to apply information.

First here we see that the name of the five towns is not developed from the Bible but from the Apocrophal book of Wisdom (a book written in Greek dating probably at about 200 BC)found in the this verse:

4 When on his account the earth was flooded, Wisdom again saved it, piloting the just man on frailest wood. 5 5 She, when the nations were sunk in universal wickedness, knew the just man, kept him blameless before God, and preserved him resolute against pity for his child. 6 6 She delivered the just man from among the wicked who were being destroyed, when he fled as fire descended upon Pentapolis-- 7 7 Where as a testimony to its wickedness, there yet remain a smoking desert, Plants bearing fruit that never ripens, and the tomb of a disbelieving soul, a standing pillar of salt. 8 For those who forsook Wisdom first were bereft of knowledge of the right, And then they left mankind a memorial of their folly-- so that they could not even be hidden in their fall. 9 But Wisdom delivered from tribulations those who served her.

Of the Pentapolis we see this in the old Catholic encylopedia:

Pentapolis

The word, occurring in Wisdom, x, 6, designates the region where stood the five cities (pente, polis) — Sodom, Gomorrha, Segor (A. V., Zoar), Adama, Seboim — which united to resist the invasion of Chodorlahomor (Genesis 14), and of which four were shortly after utterly destroyed.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11646b.htm

Couple that with Josephus who was writing based mainly on Jewish Tradition after the time of Christ we see how the idea that all five were destroyed even though Zoar by the Biblical account was not. And it appears to all come from the Apocraphal book of Wisdom. All because it used an conglomerating term for some cities and then since the term is used it is assumed that all were destroyed.


[/quote]

GE 19:29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.

GE 19:30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave.

We saw earlier that Lot was living in Sodom so the Zoar reference must indicate after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

GE 13:12 Abram lived in the land of Canaan, while Lot lived among the cities of the plain and pitched his tents near Sodom.

GE 19:1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.

 

[tall73]

So let's review the evidence.

Two Bible texts, one Jewish historian of the first century and one church father testify that Zoar was still there.



Deu 34:1 Then Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, which is opposite Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the land, Gilead as far as Dan,
Deu 34:2 all Naphtali, the land of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the western sea,
Deu 34:3 the Negeb, and the Plain, that is, the Valley of Jericho the city of palm trees, as far as Zoar.


Isa 15:5 My heart shall cry out for Moab; his fugitives shall flee unto Zoar, an heifer of three years old: for by the mounting up of Luhith with weeping shall they go it up; for in the way of Horonaim they shall raise up a cry of destruction.


Bala."That is Sigor It is now called Zoora (Zoara) the only one of the territory of Sodom which escaped. It is now inhabited in the vicinity of the Dead Sea. A garrison of soldiers is there.
Eusebius, Onomasticon


Now he and his daughters fled to a certain small place, encompassed with the fire, and settled in it: it is to this day called Zoar, for that is the word which the Hebrews use for a small thing. There it was that he lived a miserable life, on account of his having no company, and his want of provisions.
Antiquities 1, 11:4


The length of this lake is five hundred and eighty furlongs, where it is extended as far as Zoar in Arabia; and its breadth is a hundred and fifty. The country of Sodom borders upon it. It was of old a most happy land, both for the fruits it bore and the riches of its cities, although it be now all burnt up. It is related how, for the impiety of its inhabitants, it was burnt by lightning; in consequence of which there are still the remainders of that Divine fire, and the traces [or shadows] of the five cities are still to be seen, as well as the ashes growing in their fruits; which fruits have a color as if they were fit to be eaten, but if you pluck them with your hands, they dissolve into smoke and ashes. And thus what is related of this land of Sodom hath these marks of credibility which our very sight affords us.
Wars of the Jews 4, 8:4


God said He would not destroy it.


Gen 19:20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.
Gen 19:21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.
Gen 19:22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.

 

[honorthesabbath]

I reiterate, Ge 19:29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.

Since we know that Lot 'dwelt in Zoar', then at some point that city was destroyed too.

Also take note that the city was first called Bela (which means DESTRUCTION) and later was named ZOAR (probably after it was rebuilt).

 

[tall73]

I reiterate, Ge 19:29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.

Since we know that Lot 'dwelt in Zoar', then at some point that city was destroyed too.

Also take note that the city was first called Bela (which means DESTRUCTION) and later was named ZOAR (probably after it was rebuilt).

You reiterate while again leaving off the next verse:

Gen 19:27 And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the LORD.
Gen 19:28 And he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah and toward all the land of the valley, and he looked and, behold, the smoke of the land went up like the smoke of a furnace.
Gen 19:29 So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, God remembered Abraham and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow when he overthrew the cities in which Lot had lived.
Gen 19:30 Now Lot went up out of Zoar and lived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters.


Zoar is still alive and well after the destruction you quote.

 

[tall73]

Do you recognize that Josephus did say it was still there to this day?

 

[mva1985]

You reiterate while again leaving off the next verse:

Gen 19:27 And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the LORD.
Gen 19:28 And he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah and toward all the land of the valley, and he looked and, behold, the smoke of the land went up like the smoke of a furnace.
Gen 19:29 So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, God remembered Abraham and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow when he overthrew the cities in which Lot had lived.
Gen 19:30 Now Lot went up out of Zoar and lived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters.


Zoar is still alive and well after the destruction you quote.

I'm curious why do you think he was afraid to live there? Hmmmmm......

 

[tall73]

Because they were wicked and the folks of his previous city tried to take his house by force. Are you proposing that he was afraid that God would destroy it when God had just said he would not, and took the trouble to spare Lot in the first place?

Now I am curious as to whether you acknowledge the statements of the Bible and two ancient historians that say that Zoar was not destroyed.