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tall73

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Ellen White:

Lot dwelt but a short time in Zoar. Iniquity prevailed there as in Sodom, and he feared to remain, lest the city should be destroyed. Not long after, Zoar was consumed, as God had purposed. {PP 167.3}

Bible:


GE 19:21 He said to him, "Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of.
GE 19:22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it." (That is why the town was called Zoar. )

Deu 34:1 Then Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, which is opposite Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the land, Gilead as far asDan,
Deu 34:2 all Naphtali, the land of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the western sea,
Deu 34:3 the Negeb, and the Plain, that is, the Valley of Jericho the city of palm trees, as far as Zoar.
 

RC_NewProtestants

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More on Zoar
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Easton's Bible Dictionary[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Zoar[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] [N] [H] http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/SmithsBibleDictionary/smt.cgi?number=T4619[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]small, a town on the east or south-east of the Dead Sea, to which Lot and his daughters fled from Sodom (Genesis 19:22,23). It was originally called Bela (14:2,8). It is referred to by the prophets (Isaiah 15:5) and (Jeremiah 48:34). Its ruins are still seen at the opening of the ravine of Kerak, the Kir-Moab referred to in 2 Kings 3, the modern Tell esh-Shaghur.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries/EastonBibleDictionary/ebd.cgi?word=Zoar

[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
[/FONT]
 
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honorthesabbath

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Looks like EGW was right again...Lot 'dwelt in Zorah' for awhile.

Ge 19:29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.
 
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tall73

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Looks like EGW was right again...Lot 'dwelt in Zorah' for awhile.

Ge 19:29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.


Problem 1. It says God sent Lot out of the overthrow WHEN he overthrew the cities Lot dwelt in. Lot didn't dwell in Zoar until after that sending out event. He fled to Zoar.

Problem 2. God spared Zoar, according to the text in Genesis.

Problem 3. Zoar was still around as the biblical account makes clear in Deuteronomy, etc.

Problem 4. The text mentions Zoar in the next verse:

Gen 19:23 The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zoar.
Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven.
Gen 19:25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
Gen 19:26 But Lot's wife, behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
Gen 19:27 And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the LORD.
Gen 19:28 And he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah and toward all the land of the valley, and he looked and, behold, the smoke of the land went up like the smoke of a furnace.
Gen 19:29 So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, God remembered Abraham and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow when he overthrew the cities in which Lot had lived.
Gen 19:30 Now Lot went up out of Zoar and lived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters.
 
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woobadooba

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Tall, do you recall the time when we got into a heated debate because you were showing me verses from the Bible that are supposedly contradictory? You took the position that in several places the Bible is not consistent with itself, and even went as far as to argue that the writers weren't always consistent.

So now you try to use these arguments to refute the prophetic gift of Ellen White while readily excusing contradictions that inspired writers made in the Bible?

I find your double-standard to be quite interesting!
 
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Cribstyl

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I'm not too bright, but what I see here is evidence that at times EGWhite made statements that was not inspired from God, nor were they biblical truths.({PP 167.3})


Some people feel that EGWhite is under attack (as usual), but the real issues are "truth vs error."

As a Christian I cant stand on the words of man but rather on the word of God.

Kudos to Tall73 for presenting text that settles all truth.

CRIB
 
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tall73

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Tall, do you recall the time when we got into a heated debate because you were showing me verses from the Bible that are supposedly contradictory? You took the position that in several places the Bible is not consistent with itself, and even went as far as to argue that the writers weren't always consistent.

So now you try to use these arguments to refute the prophetic gift of Ellen White while readily excusing contradictions that inspired writers made in the Bible?

I find your double-standard to be quite interesting!

Yes, I do recall it. I am actually holding both to the same standard. We were discussing the texts by Thompson and Pippim looking at issues in the Scripture and Ellen White.

I don't hold to verbal inspiration of the Bible. Nor do I hold Ellen White to verbal inspiration either, as she does not even claim that she, or the Bible were verbally inspired. Therefore in the Bible when we have an instance where the signs on the cross say slightly different things, I am not stressed over it. Or if one list of items says slightly different things from the temple, I am not stressed over it, as we discussed that day.

In the same way, I am not overly stressed over such things as Ellen white putting Enoch instead of Adam at one point when the context makes it clear she meant Adam.

However, when she makes up things, such as the destruction of a city that the Bible says was spared, and that is seen later as existing, that is not the same thing as a transposed name or a different number on a list.

Or when she says that God used Miller's false, time-setting message to test people, that is not a little scribal blunder , but a whole frame of mind which disregards the words of Jesus on that point and attributes the mistakes of Miller to God.

So yes, I still look at the issues surrounding verbal and thought inspiration, and some of the errors that are attributed to EGW actually fall into that category. But there are others where that does not sufficiently explain the issue.

Now another factor which comes up is the difference between contradictions and additions.

Ellen White added many things to accounts of the Bible. And some I am a bit doubtful that they are accurate. But unless they outright contradict the text I don't think we can use that as evidence against her.

And we do see instances of inspired authors giving more details in the Scriptures. For instance, the author of Hebrews mentions that blood was brought into the whole temple during the dedication service, though the OT account only mentions oil being brought in and blood on the bronze altar. Now that is additional material. But that doesn't make it wrong.

Ellen White for instance says that Adam was more than twice as tall as men currently. Now does the Bible say that? No. Can I prove it was false, and use that against Ellen White? No because the Bible doesn't say one way or the other.

So additions of themselves I think do not disqualify. Outright contradictions that are not attributable to simply the process of inspiration are a different story.

In the same way using other people's work as a source when making an inspired work does not per se rule out someone's inspiration. Ellen using sources in the Great Controversy, as she admits, is not something that would rule her out as a prophet. Luke also used sources for his history. On the other hand if she claimed that information was from a vision and actually was just from contemporary work that might be different. So for instance, when her health reforms are held up as proof, but some of them seem to be more based on the health reformers of her day, that becomes an issue.
 
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woobadooba

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Yes, I do recall it. I am actually holding both to the same standard. We were discussing the texts by Thompson and Pippim looking at issues in the Scripture and Ellen White.

I don't hold to verbal inspiration of the Bible. Nor do I hold Ellen White to verbal inspiration either, as she does not even claim that she, or the Bible were verbally inspired. Therefore in the Bible when we have an instance where the signs on the cross say slightly different things, I am not stressed over it. Or if one list of items says slightly different things from the temple, I am not stressed over it, as we discussed that day.

In the same way, I am not overly stressed over such things as Ellen white putting Enoch instead of Adam at one point when the context makes it clear she meant Adam.

However, when she makes up things, such as the destruction of a city that the Bible says was spared, and that is seen later as existing, that is not the same thing as a transposed name or a different number on a list.

When she claims health visions that were apparently based on thinking of her time, that is not an issue with verbal inspiration vs. thought inspiration.

Or when she says that God used Miller's false, time-setting message to test people, that is not a little scribal blunder , but a whole frame of mind which disregards the words of Jesus on that point and attributes the mistakes of Miller to God.

So yes, I still look at the issues surrounding verbal and thought inspiration, and some of the errors that are attributed to EGW actually fall into that category. But there are others where that does not sufficiently explain the issue.

Now another factor which comes up is the difference between contradictions and additions.

Ellen White added many things to accounts of the Bible. And some I am a bit doubtful that they are accurate. But unless they outright contradict the text I don't think we can use that as evidence against her.

And we do see instances of inspired authors giving more details in the Scriptures. For instance, the author of Hebrews mentions that blood was brought into the whole temple during the dedication service, though the OT account only mentions oil being brought in and blood on the bronze altar. Now that is additional material. But that doesn't make it wrong.

Ellen White for instance says that Adam was more than twice as tall as men currently. Now does the Bible say that? No. Can I prove it was false, and use that against Ellen White? No because the Bible doesn't say one way or the other.

So additions of themselves I think do not disqualify. Outright contradictions that are not attributable to simply the process of inspiration are a different story.

In the same way using other people's work as a source when making an inspired work does not per se rule out someone's inspiration. Ellen using sources in the Great Controversy, as she admits, is not something that would rule her out as a prophet. Luke also used sources for his history. On the other hand if she claimed that information was from a vision and actually was just from contemporary work that might be different. So for instance, when her health reforms are held up as proof, but some of them seem to be more based on the health reformers of her day, that becomes an issue.

I don't know if you realize this or not, but these kind of threads of yours are doing people more harm than good.

Granted, there may be people that appreciate this kind of stuff, but that doesn't mean they are heading in the right direction with God. For the most part it is just simply counter-productive to helping people build a relationship with Jesus Christ when so much time is spent pointing out faults and looking for error, or something to complain about.

It is better to focus on the gifts of the Spirit!

At least I can say for myself that your posts have been very discouraging to me.
 
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tall73

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I don't know if you realize this or not, but these kind of threads of yours are doing people more harm than good.

Granted, there may be people that appreciate this kind of stuff, but that doesn't mean they are heading in the right direction with God. For the most part it is just simply counter-productive to helping people build a relationship with Jesus Christ when so much time is spent pointing out faults and looking for error, or something to complain about.

It is better to focus on the gifts of the Spirit!

At least I can say for myself that your posts have been very discouraging to me.

I was not encouraged by these things when I found them. But these are issues that face the Adventist church and we can't just not talk about them because they are depressing.

Adventists claim they are the remnant partly on the claim that EGW is inspired. She claims that those who fall from her writings are falling from Christ. These are issues that need to be looked at. If you are discouraged by them then you need not participate. You might enjoy more of the fellowship threads. I tend to get my fellowship in real life or elsewhere, just because this hasn't proven to be the best place for it.

These issues have a direct bearing on people's lives, including mine. Some of us can no longer avoid these issues any longer.

I would also suggest that Ellen White, according to the SDA fundamental belief, upholds the idea that the Scriptures judge all doctrine, including Ellen White's writings. We are to test prophets. There is no guarantee that everything in the spiritual life will bring encouragement. But we cannot avoid it because of that.
 
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O

OntheDL

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Ellen White:


Lot dwelt but a short time in Zoar. Iniquity prevailed there as in Sodom, and he feared to remain, lest the city should be destroyed. Not long after, Zoar was consumed, as God had purposed. {PP 167.3}

Bible:

GE 19:21 He said to him, "Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of.
GE 19:22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it." (That is why the town was called Zoar. )

Deu 34:1 Then Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, which is opposite Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the land, Gilead as far asDan,
Deu 34:2 all Naphtali, the land of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the western sea,
Deu 34:3 the Negeb, and the Plain, that is, the Valley of Jericho the city of palm trees, as far as Zoar.

Maybe I missed it but where in the bible it says explicitly contrary to what EGW wrote on Zoar?
 
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tall73

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Maybe I missed it but where in the bible it says explicitly contrary to what EGW wrote on Zoar?

The continued existence of Zoar and the statement by God that He would spare the city were both quoted by you.
 
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tall73

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This is just another example of someone trying to tear EGW down.

I have not found any profit in it.

And by the way I did refute the whole "tuning the piano" thread. Have a look.

Is it?

I agree, I think the piano one is addressed. Now, no resting on your laurels. Get to the rest of them.

The problem is that I am not just trying to tear EGW down. I am honestly convinced she is in error and is a danger.

I don't base this on only one example.
 
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mva1985

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Is it?

I agree, I think the piano one is addressed. Now, no resting on your laurels. Get to the rest of them.

The problem is that I am not just trying to tear EGW down. I am honestly convinced she is in error and is a danger.

I don't base this on only one example.
Regardless of the tone of my posts I do not have any ill will towards you, I certainly hope you understand that. I in no way consider you an enemy.

I think she is a benefit, and you believe she is in error and a danger. You along with everyone else are certainly entitled to your own opinions. I will do my best to defend. I know that I will not always succeed. Not because of her writings, but because of my shortcomings in studying and presentation

Please also understand that I do not force EGW on anyone. A person should be convinced in their own mind of her mission. Everyone of us are at different levels in our experience.

But since this is an Adventist forum you just kind of expect to run across others who believe in her prophetic ministry.

I certainly believe that a person can be saved if they only had the Bible and the Bible alone, but since God has chosen to give us a prophet for the end of time I can't see any reason not to study her writings.

Just a little take on my position.
 
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O

OntheDL

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The continued existence of Zoar and the statement by God that He would spare the city were both quoted by you.

You needed to make three assumptions to conclude EGW was wrong.

1. Assume the allusion to Zoar means the city still existed.

2. Assume it was never at one pointed destroyed even if it existed when Moses alluded to it.

19 Behold now, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have magnified your kindness and mercy to me in saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountains, lest the evil overtake me, and I die.

The reason God did not destroy it is because Lot didn't want to escape to the mountains.

3.You assume God didn't destroy Zoar after Lot went to the mountains.

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

Why was he then afraid to dwell in Zoar? Maybe the city was also wicked and he knew God would destroy it?
 
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T

TrustAndObey

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Is it?

I agree, I think the piano one is addressed. Now, no resting on your laurels. Get to the rest of them.

The problem is that I am not just trying to tear EGW down. I am honestly convinced she is in error and is a danger.

I don't base this on only one example.

MVA, I don't know about you, but I don't particularly like being bossed around, do you?

Tall, MVA has been very nice to you.

I recall a conversation with you just a short time ago where you said you weren't totally convinced and you were just sincerely questioning.

If you are honestly convinced, you aren't questioning at all. You're trying to teach.

Isn't this forum subject to the Congregation-wide guidelines of CF? Our sticky says it is.
 
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tall73

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You needed to make three assumptions to conclude EGW was wrong.

1. Assume the allusion to Zoar means the city still existed.

2. Assume it was never at one pointed destroyed even if it existed when Moses alluded to it.

19 Behold now, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have magnified your kindness and mercy to me in saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountains, lest the evil overtake me, and I die.

The reason God did not destroy it is because Lot didn't want to escape to the mountains.

3.You assume God didn't destroy Zoar after Lot went to the mountains.

30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.

Why was he then afraid to dwell in Zoar? Maybe the city was also wicked and he knew God would destroy it?


Now the assumptions you have to make:

- When God said He wouldn't destroy it that He meant He would.

- That when it refers to Zoar it didn't mean that it existed.

- that it was built back up though it was never said to be destroyed. Nor was anything built back up in Sodom, etc. where the destruction was so complete.
 
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tall73

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MVA, I don't know about you, but I don't particularly like being bossed around, do you?

Tall, MVA has been very nice to you.

I recall a conversation with you just a short time ago where you said you weren't totally convinced and you were just sincerely questioning.

If you are honestly convinced, you aren't questioning at all. You're trying to teach.

Isn't this forum subject to the Congregation-wide guidelines of CF? Our sticky says it is.

I have said over and over again I am convinced. I said I am testing presuppositions.

Now as to the guidelines, nothing in them prevents teaching in the debate area.
 
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