Zen

[Peaceful1]

I am a Christian (Catholic). I also study Tang Soo Do (Korean Karate). TSD is approx. 2000 years old. The form I study has been virtually unchanged since its inception. The principles of this art are peace through non-violence. It is however a very Hard Style. It is taught that if you can walk away from a "situation" without having to use force you have won. One of the black belts gave me book on Zen. Its speaks of inner peace and a 6th sense. I have experienced these feelings once maybe twice in the 2 1/2 years I have been training. I asked 8 black belts that I train with if they believed in Jesus. Some did, some seemed to put up their guards and a couple of them stated flatly they didn't. When I expressed some of my spiritual encounters with Christ in an effort to present some proof I was dejected and it a heated debate insued. Because I would never speak of the possibility that "they could be right" I firmly stated at least 10 times in a non threatening tone that I trully believed they were wrong. It was so confusing to me that my wife stood up and said " I agree with you but you should respect their opinions" I don't feel I wasn't respecting their opinions I felt as though I was being forced to defend mine. Do you think Zen is good bad or indiffenrent.

Christs peace be with you all,

Sean

 

[MizDoulos]

More appropriately answered here; moved from Questions About Christianity.

 

[seebs]

I would not describe Zen itself as being "good" or "bad"; I'd say it's an approach to philosophy which may yield some interesting ideas. I think that many of the beliefs commonly associated with Zen are false, but then, most Buddhists probably think that many of the beliefs commonly associated with Christianity are false.

It's fine to think people are wrong, but stating it over and over is unilkely to serve any purpose at all.

I understand your reluctance to admit that "they could be right", but at the same time, it's probably better to grant, if nothing else, that apparently your arguments were not persuasive to them, and agree to disagree. Pushing the issue doesn't help.

If you'd like to know more about Zen, a good place to start is _Zen and the Art of Archery_ (no, not the motorcycle maintenance one; that's an interesting book, but I don't think it's as good an intro to zen). You can also learn a lot about it by studying koans.

A lot of Zen study goes into trying to break the mind of the habits it acquires through exposure to static beliefs; this can be a very healthy thing for you, and can be compatible with the Christian exhortation to be in the world ,but not necessarily of it.

I don't recall any koans with the kind of accuracy it would take to do them full justice, but a fairly typical sample:

A master had called his students together to determine who should lead the monastery after his death. He brought out a vase full of water, and said "Whoever can tell me what this is without saying its name should succeed me." One of the most advanced students announced "No man can say that it is a wooden shoe." The cook came over and tipped the vase over with his foot, spilling water everywhere. The cook became the new master.


---

Once a teacher was in the habit of pointing a finger at students in a certain way. One of his students, eager to imitate the master, adopted this behavior. When the master heard, he was most displeased. He had the student brought to him, and demanded an explanation. The student pointed his finger at the master, and the master, swift as lightning, cut the finger off. The student ran from the room, bleeding and crying. As he reached the door, the master called out 'Stop!'. When the student turned, the master pointed at him; at this, the student was enlightened.

---

Zen can provide interesting exercises in studying the way we think. I would not advocate it as a path to salvation, or a replacement for Christianity, but it's not "evil".

Oh, and the famous one, of course, is that you clap your hands, and ask the student to consider the sound of two hands clapping - now, what is the sound of one hand clapping?

It's a fun puzzle.

 

[Othniel]

Zen teaches that one achieves peace through their own actions. It is the precise opposite of the gospel of Jesus Christ which proclaims that no man can achieve True peace, but that it is a gift of God which comes only with His Salvation. Zen is at its deepest root a lie which uses many half truths to dissuade people from finding the only Truth which Truly frees. Zen will teach that there really is not real Truth, but many kinds of truth. This is a sheer and obvious denial of the Salvific nature of Christ.

I agree that you must respect people's opinions. God has made it clear that people can believe whatever they want. It may not be good for them in the end, but He will not force anyone to accept His grace. However, respecting one's opinion does not mean telling them that they're right. It may mean accepting that you must disagree, and by all means, do so with peace and grace. But those who are ashamed of the Lord, He has promised to be ashamed of them on the day He comes in Glory.

Christ said clearly, "He who is not for me, is against me."

What does not teach Christ is a tool of the world which the evil one will, does and has used to fleece the blind.

Zen is as dangerous to both teh Christian and non-Christian soul as is witchcraft, Islam, Mormonism and every other truth-twisting lie which teaches works-righteousness over the unadulterated atoning sacrifice and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Peace to all who seek it,

 

[Hank]

Originally posted by Othniel
Zen is as dangerous to both teh Christian and non-Christian soul as is witchcraft, Islam, Mormonism and every other truth-twisting lie which teaches works-righteousness over the unadulterated atoning sacrifice and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Peace to all who seek it,

This is interesting.

Where exactly is receiving the Holy Spirit different to inner peace then to seek it out via Zen mythology? Both claim to give a peace beyond understanding. How do you know which one is satanic,  since both give the same 'feeling'?

p.s. neither Zen nor Christianity is part of my life.

 

[LouisBooth]

Personally I'd say the 'teaching' of Zen is bad based on some verses in col. particularlly chapter 2 verse 8. I think you where in the right.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Othniel
Zen teaches that one achieves peace through their own actions.

But says nothing about salvation...

Christ said clearly, "He who is not for me, is against me."

What does not teach Christ is a tool of the world which the evil one will, does and has used to fleece the blind.

So, for instance, is algebra a tool of the world, used to fleece the blind? Not everything is addressing the basic questions that Christianity does, but that doesn't make them all false, lies, or in opposition to Christianity.

Certain parts of Zen as it is generally practiced strike me as misguided or confused, however, there is a great deal to it that has no cosmology to it, and remains true (or false) totally independant of whether or not one accepts the cosmology.

Zen certainly does not teach "salvation through works" or anything of the sort.

What *is* often taught has to do with mental states. The one flaw, I think, is the assumption that achieving a peaceful mental state is sufficient; obviously, there's much more than that to life. However, once you know that there are other important goals, if you want to learn to calm down and have a bit more control over your instincts and impulses, Zen has some good ways to approach this.

 

[budoka]

Hi Sean
You have experienced the spiritual clarity that comes as a result of the physical and mental disciplines of a good martial art. TSD sounds similar in philosophy to the art I practice, aikido (though the actual techniques are very different to karate), which is deeply spiritually fulfilling.

Not everyone will interpret what they experience in the same way, and I think this has to do with the basic outlook of the individual. Some people practice martial arts just for practical reasons, others have a wider perspective. I know that when I am in the dojo, the joy and peace I feel is very different to anything else in my life.

Zak

 

[Susan]

So, for instance, is algebra a tool of the world, used to fleece the blind?

YEAH!!! Thanks! Maybe I can get exempted from it on the grounds of a religious objection. . .


BTW Zen is bad. It is Buddhist lies.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Certain parts of Zen as it is generally practiced strike me as misguided or confused, however, there is a great deal to it that has no cosmology to it, and remains true (or false) totally independant of whether or not one accepts the cosmology."

No seebs, christ said don't dilute the salt, that's exactly what you're saying to do

 

[foolsparade]

Othniel: you mention Zen teaches that one achieves peace through their own actions. Now that sounds logical to me, being accountable for our actions instead of pawning off our guilt and mistakes to satisfy the vanity of a God. You go on to write:

"It is the precise opposite of the gospel of Jesus Christ which proclaims that no man can achieve True peace, but that it is a gift of God which comes only with His Salvation"

I suppose that is reason number 4,367 why I would never be Christian. You suggest that it is literally impossible for one to be at peace as a Christian in this life. Which is the most important life, in my opinion. You say Zen is evil, looks like you have it backwards.

Susan: could you give me an example of a lie that Buddha has told?? thanks..

 

[seebs]

I'm not sure that Buddha specifically lied, but I think he was mistaken. Buddhism centers around the avoidance of suffering (or dukkha, if my spelling is correct). This doesn't mean "pain", but suffering; for instance, it may not be suffering to stub your toe, but it is suffering to experience envy.

Buddha teaches (probably correctly) that suffering is the result of attachment, and that, if you had no attachments, you would not suffer.

Buddha has missed the point. Joy, too, comes from attachment, and if the price of joy is suffering, then it is well worth it.

Nonetheless, some attachments may be poorly considered ones, and in this, Buddhism gives good insights. It is not a substitute for faith or God, and should probably not be used as one.

I think that the belief that we achieve peace through our own actions is largely correct. Peace is not salvation; you can be saved, but not at peace, and you can be at peace, but not be saved. Having both sounds pretty good from here.

 

[foolsparade]

seebs: I will say that I am not a buddhist and often question Buddhism as a religion, it seems more like a way one should look at life. I am reminded of what Nietzsche writes in the book 'The Anti Christ' when comparing the two religions, which you illuded too. " it{buddhism} no longer speaks of the struggle against SIN but, quit in accordance with actuality, the struggle against suffering. This distinguishes it profoundly from Christianity--the self deception of moral concepts behind it."
I just dont subscribe to the concept of "salvation" I suppose. To me this word seems so primative in our development as human beings. Its like a chain that keeps holding us back.

 

[Raiel Corwin]

Originally posted by Susan
Zen is bad. It is Buddhist lies.

Zen, being not a statement but a philosophy, cannot be a lie; If perhaps you are indicating that ALL points of Zen philosophy are lies, then you are in turn denying your own religion, because there is common ground between Zen philosophy and that of Christ.

 

[Migloth]

From those apposed to Zen, I sense a lot of fear, a lot of animosity.

Basic Zen (which is simply meditation) is not a religion though there are outgrowths of Zen that have become their own religions.

Practicing Zen with no goals except 'he (God) must become more, I must become less' can be very beneficial and enlightening. Is not that the point of Christianity, complete and selfless commitment to God? Does not God enlighten(via the Holy Spirit) those who seek him?

Read 'Christian Zen' by William Johnston. Excellent book.

 

[Kain]

Originally posted by seebs
I'm not sure that Buddha specifically lied, but I think he was mistaken. Buddhism centers around the avoidance of suffering (or dukkha, if my spelling is correct). This doesn't mean "pain", but suffering; for instance, it may not be suffering to stub your toe, but it is suffering to experience envy.

Buddha teaches (probably correctly) that suffering is the result of attachment, and that, if you had no attachments, you would not suffer.

Buddha has missed the point. Joy, too, comes from attachment, and if the price of joy is suffering, then it is well worth it.

Nonetheless, some attachments may be poorly considered ones, and in this, Buddhism gives good insights. It is not a substitute for faith or God, and should probably not be used as one.

I think that the belief that we achieve peace through our own actions is largely correct. Peace is not salvation; you can be saved, but not at peace, and you can be at peace, but not be saved. Having both sounds pretty good from here.

The concept of attachment in Buddhims has similarities with Christianity.

Several 'attachments' are described.

-Attachment to sensual pleasure (or lust, covetousness. A similar concept exists in Christianity)
-Attachment to fanatical conduct (probably no equivalent in Christianity, but not a bad thing)
-Attachment to ego (similar concept exist in Christianity)
-Attachment to heresy (or ignorance, a similar concept exists in Christianity)

These are short descriptions. A more informative essay may be found here
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits034.htm


The basic concept is, don't get attached to ideas or concepts that may lead you away from spirituality. In this respect, it is similar to Christianity, where Christians are to discard even their own family if they lead away from Christ and God.

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste all,

hmm... i've seen Zen talked about here, however, by and large the point of Zen is being missed.

first things first though...

Zen is a particular school of Mahayana Buddhism and as such, is going to be different from Pure Land, Ch'an (though Zen is it's name in Japan) and so forth.

Zen has no doctrine to uphold, no belief system that one must adhere to. one is simply enjoined to sit and discover for oneself what transpires in ones mind.

Buddhism as a whole is being described as a "religion" or a "philosophy" it is both and more, however simply hanging a label of Buddhist on someone or something does not make it so. Explaining the Doctinal aspects of Zen or Mahayana Buddhism for that matter, does not seem to be the goal or desire of this thread, so i shall not elaborate any further herein.

secondly, yes.. the word is Dhukka and is translated as "suffering" in English however a better description of this word would, in my opinion, be "unsatisfactoriness" in all it's ramifications, physical, emotional and spiritual.

actually, the Buddha taught that suffering is due to deluded thoughts, which manifest themselves as "grasping".. the literal translation of that word is "thirst". nevertheless, it would not be correct to presume that attachment brings joy. the Buddhist realizes a different state of joy than one that is limited by the petty concerns of ego and sentimentality. actually, the term is "bliss" not joy, that a Buddhist experiences.

ah, yes... practicing Zen without goals or aspirations is the correct method of practice. anything else is not Zen, and that is the point.

as St. Dionysius, in his treatise to Timothy said:

As for you, beloved Timothy...quit the senses, the workings of the intellect, and all that may be sensed and known, and all that is not, and is. For by this you may unknowingly attain, in as far as it is possible, to the one-ness of Him who is beyond all being and knowledge....But take heed lest the profane hear - those, I say, who cling to creatures, and imagine in themselves that nothing is beyond being, beyond existences, but suppose themselves to know Him "who maketh darkness his hiding-place".