Zec 12-13, Bringing the Jews home to Christ

[7sForDays]

For those who are claiming that Israel is not part of the end time scenario, think again.


Zec 12:2 "Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah.

Never happened before.

Zec 12:3 "It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.

Never happened before.

Zec 12:6 "In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem.

Zec 12:9 "And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Never happened before.

Zec 12:10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

Parallel

Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

This is about Jesus directly, so we know this hasnt happened yet because the Jews have yet to mourn the one they pierced.

Rom_11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."


**Bonus verses**

Jer 30:7 'Alas! for that day is great, There is none like it; And it is the time of Jacob's distress, But he will be saved from it.

Jer 30:8 'It shall come about on that day,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'that I will break his yoke from off their neck and will tear off their bonds; and strangers will no longer make them their slaves.

Eze 36:24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.


How do we know the Jews returned? Because it was written.

Eze 36:36 "Then the nations that are left round about you will know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which was desolate; I, the LORD, have spoken and will do it."

 

[Interplanner]

Check the NT use of most of these, and you'll see that the official NT interp of them is that they are about the Gospel. Sometimes it is just an image that is borrowed, too.

btw, when Zech says something will happen in his future, why does that mean we jump to our times? The Gospel event was his future first.

 

[7sForDays]

Check the NT use of most of these, and you'll see that the official NT interp of them is that they are about the Gospel.

Im good, but maybe you could start a thread about it, we are talking about what is written here.

 

[Interplanner]

Except that you're not. There is no such other topic. All these verses are quoted officially by the NT and we are wasting our time if we do not use what it says. If you find something about the future after a thorough study of how the NT quotes these, we'll talk.

 

[7sForDays]

If you find something about the future after a thorough study of how the NT quotes these, we'll talk.

Promise?

 

[Interplanner]

Just remember, a person doesn't have to go to a country to grasp the historic Gospel. It is about justification by faith. See the sermon of Acts 13 and how the destiny of Israel is to declare justification, the Gospel, to the nations.

The NT is about Israel being messengers to the nations. Futurism is about Israel coming back to its land; why, I'm not sure.

 

[Interplanner]

The list of the 2500 uses of the OT by the NT can be found in Metzger's Greek text, but you can also get quite a list going on your own from the footnotes of NIV or another good study Bible.

Sorry have to sign off.

 

[7sForDays]

I never replied.

You promised we wouldnt talk.

what happend, you lasted like 2 minutes before you had to get another word in..

 

[notreligus]

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

The promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled in Christ. He is true Israel. God does not have two Covenants in place. Christ is better. The New Covenant is better. Mankind has been reconciled by the finished work of Christ. What is never going to happen in the future is a restoration of Law, animal sacrifices and the Levitical priesthood. Christ is right now the Great High Priest and He makes intercession for us. His righteousness has been imputed to the believer.

Israel, the nation, was not always obedient to God. Their blessings were based on their obedience. Isaiah 53 is about the Suffering Servant, Christ. The Jews rejected Him and they believe that the Messiah is yet to be revealed, or as many Jews believe, Israel is the Messiah and Isaiah 53 represents the suffering nation of Israel.

All of mankind had need of the reconciliation which Christ provided by the finished work of Christ. There is no difference in Jew or Gentile in Christ as one new man has been created. The Book of Hebrews admonished the Jews in the early church about their forsaking the assembly with other Christians to revert back to Judaism and association with Law-keeping Jews. Hebrews reveals that the Law is now obsolete. (Hebrews 8:13.) All of these things matter and they make some of your questions moot. As far as passages about Jerusalem, keep in mind that Christ will reign over His physical kingdom when it is established in the New Jerusalem.

 

[7sForDays]

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

The promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled in Christ. He is true Israel. God does not have two Covenants in place. Christ is better. The New Covenant is better. Mankind has been reconciled by the finished work of Christ. What is never going to happen in the future is a restoration of Law, animal sacrifices and the Levitical priesthood. Christ is right now the Great High Priest and He makes intercession for us. His righteousness has been imputed to the believer.

Israel, the nation, was not always obedient to God. Their blessings were based on their obedience. Isaiah 53 is about the Suffering Servant, Christ. The Jews rejected Him and they believe that the Messiah is yet to be revealed, or as many Jews believe, Israel is the Messiah and Isaiah 53 represents the suffering nation of Israel.

All of mankind had need of the reconciliation which Christ provided by the finished work of Christ. There is no difference in Jew or Gentile in Christ as one new man has been created. The Book of Hebrews admonished the Jews in the early church about their forsaking the assembly with other Christians to revert back to Judaism and association with Law-keeping Jews. Hebrews reveals that the Law is now obsolete. (Hebrews 8:13.) All of these things matter and they make some of your questions moot. As far as passages about Jerusalem, keep in mind that Christ will reign over His physical kingdom when it is established in the New Jerusalem.

I agree, but how does that refute the op??

I mean, doesnt it kinda support my position?

Bringing the Jews home to Christ

 

[7sForDays]

You do realize that if you are unsaved, you are either a Jew, or a Gentile.

Its literally that simple.

In Christ we are neither..

 

[John S]

NO ONE is "saved" until they die and then God decides whether a person goes to Heaven or not. For human beings to make that claim is putting oneself above God - and that is blasphemy.

 

[ebedmelech]

For those who are claiming that Israel is not part of the end time scenario, think again.

Why?

Zec 12:2 "Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah.

Never happened before.

Sure it did. Didn't Nebuchadnezzar lay siege against Jerusalem and destroy the temple and take Judah captive?

Now this is not that event for sure...but it did happen before. It happened again with Rome in 70 AD. Not only was siege laid against Jerusalem, but the temple was utterly destroyed just as Jesus said. "Not one stone remained upon another".

Zec 12:3 "It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.

Never happened before.

Sure it did. Is not Christ called the STONE OF STUMBLING? The difficulty of this prophecy is to understand who THE STONE is. Try Isaiah 28:16:
16 Therefore thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed.

Daniel also talks about this STONE in Daniel 2:35 as Daniel explains Nebuchadnezzar's dream:
35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

Zec 12:6 "In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem.

Zec 12:9 "And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Never happened before.

You're reading this in the literal, yet this is prophecy, and as I've already showed you examples of why you cannot read this literally. If you continue to do that...you miss what's going on. True enough, this has not happened because when you read it in light of what it represents...it's the last day.

Zec 12:10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

Parallel

Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

This is about Jesus directly, so we know this hasnt happened yet because the Jews have yet to mourn the one they pierced.

Rom_11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."


**Bonus verses**

Jer 30:7 'Alas! for that day is great, There is none like it; And it is the time of Jacob's distress, But he will be saved from it.

Jer 30:8 'It shall come about on that day,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'that I will break his yoke from off their neck and will tear off their bonds; and strangers will no longer make them their slaves.

Eze 36:24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.


How do we know the Jews returned? Because it was written.

Eze 36:36 "Then the nations that are left round about you will know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which was desolate; I, the LORD, have spoken and will do it."

Let's just take one example from your verses: You quote Romans 11:26 which again makes the point that Jesus is the STONE...but did you disregard what Paul said prior to that? There's an olive tree with Israel and Gentiles grafted together...but who is Zion where this STONE is?

Didn't Paul also quote that at Romans 9:33...and does he not identify Zion at Hebrews 12:22?

 

[Interplanner]

Rom 9:33 and several other places.

It is a fundamental operating error not to master the NT use of the OT, and THEN sort out your theology.

 

[7sForDays]

Why?


Sure it did. Didn't Nebuchadnezzar lay siege against Jerusalem and destroy the temple and take Judah captive?

Now this is not that event for sure...but it did happen before. It happened again with Rome in 70 AD. Not only was siege laid against Jerusalem, but the temple was utterly destroyed just as Jesus said. "Not one stone remained upon another".

Sure it did. Is not Christ called the STONE OF STUMBLING? The difficulty of this prophecy is to understand who THE STONE is. Try Isaiah 28:16:
16 Therefore thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed.

Daniel also talks about this STONE in Daniel 2:35 as Daniel explains Nebuchadnezzar's dream:
35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

You're reading this in the literal, yet this is prophecy, and as I've already showed you examples of why you cannot read this literally. If you continue to do that...you miss what's going on. True enough, this has not happened because when you read it in light of what it represents...it's the last day.


Let's just take one example from your verses: You quote Romans 11:26 which again makes the point that Jesus is the STONE...but did you disregard what Paul said prior to that? There's an olive tree with Israel and Gentiles grafted together...but who is Zion where this STONE is?

Didn't Paul also quote that at Romans 9:33...and does he not identify Zion at Hebrews 12:22?

These two verses are not parallels unless you are now giving Jesus Christ the title of "Jerusalem"..

Correct me If Im wrong, but Jesus doesnt equal = Jerusalem.

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Since when is Jesus a "burdensome stone"???

Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Sounds like Jesus is the "Precious cornerstone" not the "burdensome stone you are talking about..


It would be impossible for you to even try to attempt to refute the other prophecy, as its objectively unfulfilled.


So, when did this verse happen?

Zec 12:10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

So who pierced Christ? The Jews..

When have the Jews looked on the "one they've pierced"


Never, because its a future prophecy, just as every prophecy that Ive given you thusfar.

 

[parousia70]

You do realize that if you are unsaved, you are either a Jew, or a Gentile.

Its literally that simple.

In Christ we are neither..

It's even more simple than that.

One today is either "In Christ" or "in Adam"

Being Jew or Gentile has no bearing on either group.

Jews and Gentiles today are all regarded equally by God and are simply part of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15), and There is not one ethnic group (or "race") of men today that is in any sense rejected by God or favored by God over others, but all are freely accepted in Christ.

 

[Shimshon]

Oh how cool. You have the Jewish Messiah coming to redeem Yisrael by abolishing Torah and causing us to convert to a false religion. God waits for thousands of years promising to redeem, save, and establish His kingdom among/within Yisrael and when he comes to do this he does it by replacing all Yisrael and Judaism with Gentile Christians...??.. How quaint. Sorta like Obama, no? (promises to) Restores America by abolishing the Constitution. Yea, that's the way God works....

 

[John S]

"Sorta like Obama, NO? Promises to restore America by abolishing the Constitution.

I know that this isn't the political forum but that is nothing more than plain and simple Republican, ultra-conservative, ignorance.

 

[7sForDays]

Oh how cool. You have the Jewish Messiah coming to redeem Yisrael by abolishing Torah and causing us to convert to a false religion. God waits for thousands of years promising to redeem, save, and establish His kingdom among/within Yisrael and when he comes to do this he does it by replacing all Yisrael and Judaism with Gentile Christians...??.. How quaint. Sorta like Obama, no? (promises to) Restores America by abolishing the Constitution. Yea, that's the way God works....

Christ already fulfilled the Law.

Im going to enter a debate with a Jew, if you want to know Chrsit, I can give you salvation through believing on him, our Lord, who is God.

You might know him as Emmanuel, born of a virgin, God in the flesh.


We as Christians adhere to the law not by trying to follow it, but by living in Christ who shows us how to live a righteous life in accordance with the Law.

There are somethings as Gentiles that YHVH understands we are not accustom to, such as the true sabbath, and certain Jewish customs.

But we are told this is not an issue in Christ.

Col 2:16 So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.

Col 2:17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ Himself is that reality.

 

[7sForDays]

It's even more simple than that.

One today is either "In Christ" or "in Adam"

Being Jew or Gentile has no bearing on either group.

Jews and Gentiles today are all regarded equally by God and are simply part of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15), and There is not one ethnic group (or "race") of men today that is in any sense rejected by God or favored by God over others, but all are freely accepted in Christ.

Jew in Adam, or Christian.
Gentile in Adam, or Christian.

Bout how I see it..