Y'shua could NOT have chosen to sin

Lebesgue · Feb 26, 2008

My son, who like me is an ex-Adventist decided to go back to SDA school for High School because he missed his friends and did not like the Public school in our neighbourhood.

When I saw his textbooks for the SDA school which for Religion class included "Messiah" which is a paraphrase for teens of EGW's "Desire of Ages" and read where it said, when He was tempted, Y'shua could have chosen to Sin and chosen to rebel against G-d, I became angered that they would teach something like that.

I explained to my son that Y'shua IS G-d and G-d CANNOT sin and CANNOT rebel against Himself. Yes, Y'shua was tempted but He is G-d and His temptations were DIFFERENT from ours.

I can't believe that they teach that Y'shua could have failed. NO HE COULD NOT HAVE HE IS G-D!!!!!!

Shalom,

Lebesgue

RND · Feb 27, 2008

Lebesgue said:
My son, who like me is an ex-Adventist decided to go back to SDA school for High School because he missed his friends and did not like the Public school in our neighbourhood.

When I saw his textbooks for the SDA school which for Religion class included "Messiah" which is a paraphrase for teens of EGW's "Desire of Ages" and read where it said, when He was tempted, Y'shua could have chosen to Sin and chosen to rebel against G-d, I became angered that they would teach something like that.

I explained to my son that Y'shua IS G-d and G-d CANNOT sin and CANNOT rebel against Himself. Yes, Y'shua was tempted but He is G-d and His temptations were DIFFERENT from ours.

I can't believe that they teach that Y'shua could have failed. NO HE COULD NOT HAVE HE IS G-D!!!!!!

Shalom,

Lebesgue

Do you have any evidence you might share with us? Quotes, books, page numbers?

reddogs · Feb 27, 2008

Lebesgue said:
My son, who like me is an ex-Adventist decided to go back to SDA school for High School because he missed his friends and did not like the Public school in our neighbourhood.

When I saw his textbooks for the SDA school which for Religion class included "Messiah" which is a paraphrase for teens of EGW's "Desire of Ages" and read where it said, when He was tempted, Y'shua could have chosen to Sin and chosen to rebel against G-d, I became angered that they would teach something like that.

I explained to my son that Y'shua IS G-d and G-d CANNOT sin and CANNOT rebel against Himself. Yes, Y'shua was tempted but He is G-d and His temptations were DIFFERENT from ours.

I can't believe that they teach that Y'shua could have failed. NO HE COULD NOT HAVE HE IS G-D!!!!!!

Shalom,

Lebesgue

You forget, Christ was also flesh and was tempted as we are tempted.....

Hebrews 2:18
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

djconklin · Feb 27, 2008

I explained to my son that Y'shua IS G-d and G-d CANNOT sin and CANNOT rebel against Himself. Yes, Y'shua was tempted but He is G-d and His temptations were DIFFERENT from ours.

Jesus was tempted. He was God-man. If He could not sin then He couldn't have been tempted in all points as we are as the Bible says. He couldn't have been our sacrifice for our sins if He could not have sinned. Instead because He was perfect He could be our sacrifice and die for our sins.

Cribstyl · Feb 27, 2008

djconklin said:
Jesus was tempted. He was God-man. If He could not sin then He couldn't have been tempted in all points as we are as the Bible says. He couldn't have been our sacrifice for our sins if He could not have sinned. Instead because He was perfect He could be our sacrifice and die for our sins.

Im in agreement, Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. Only a perfect man could die for the sins of the world. Only a man could become high priest.

I guess Lebesgue does not believe in the tri nature (trinity) of God

CRIB

Lebesgue · Feb 27, 2008

Cribstyl said:
Im in agreement, Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. Only a perfect man could die for the sins of the world. Only a man could become high priest.

I guess Lebesgue does not believe in the tri nature (trinity) of God

CRIB

What??? I just said I believe Y'shua is G-d!

G-d CANNOT sin, period...

I VERY MUCH believe in the Trinity.

Yes, Y'shua was tempted but being G-d His temptations were DIFFERENT than ours.

When HaSatan tempted Him to turn the rocks into bread and Y'shua responded with, "No man shall live by bread alone but EVERY word that proceedeth from the mouth of G-d", Y'shua was not only quoting Scripture but He was telling HaSatan, "Look pal, I'M the BREAD OF LIFE"

And do you understand that IF Y'shua HAD chosen to sin like you assume he could've(just because Ellen White said so) there would only have been 2/3 of the Trinity left.

And you're saying I don't believe in the Trinity?

Shalom,

Lebesgue

Lebesgue · Feb 27, 2008

djconklin said:
Jesus was tempted. He was God-man. If He could not sin then He couldn't have been tempted in all points as we are as the Bible says. He couldn't have been our sacrifice for our sins if He could not have sinned. Instead because He was perfect He could be our sacrifice and die for our sins.

My dear wife is a LIFELONG 3rd generation SDA and she AGREES with me that Y'shua COULD NOT have chosen to sin.

Y'shua is G-d and G-d CANNOT sin. It's that simple.

Shalom,

Reb

Jon0388g · Feb 27, 2008

Lebesgue said:
I explained to my son that Y'shua IS G-d and G-d CANNOT sin and CANNOT rebel against Himself. Yes, Y'shua was tempted but He is G-d and His temptations were DIFFERENT from ours.

Hi Lebesgue,

Please provide some Scripture to back up that statement.

Thanks,

Jon

Lebesgue · Feb 27, 2008

Jon0388g said:
Hi Lebesgue,

Please provide some Scripture to back up that statement.

Thanks,

Jon

I would think the story of the tempation would be sufficient to show that.

Would we be tempted to turn stones into bread like Y'shua was? ONLY G-d can do something like that.

SO my SDA Brothers and Sisters I'm confused here, do you believe Y'shua is G-d or not?? Because G-d CANNOT sin CANNOT choose to sin and CANNOT fail at ANYTHING.

You do realise that Ellen White in her EARLY days did not seem to be a Trinitarian nor did many of the Adventist pioneers. To Ellen's credit it appears she did eventually accept the Trinity but at first it seems as though she didn't.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

Jon0388g · Feb 27, 2008

Lebesgue said:
I would think the story of the tempation would be sufficient to show that.

Would we be tempted to turn stones into bread like Y'shua was? ONLY G-d can do something like that.

Lebesgue

Lebesgue,

Since you still have provided zero Scripture in support of your position, please then give me your opinion of these passages:

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" Philippians 2:6-7

The greek word "kenoo" here translated "of no reputation" literally means "to make empty". Compare that to these passages:

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and My judgment is just; because I seek not Mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent Me." John 5:30

"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." John 8:28

"Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which he suffered; nd being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him" Hebrews 5:8-9

And, most obviously of all,

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Hebrews 4:15

Consider these texts and get back to me.

Jon

Jon0388g · Feb 27, 2008

Lebesgue said:
You do realise that Ellen White in her EARLY days did not seem to be a Trinitarian nor did many of the Adventist pioneers. To Ellen's credit it appears she did eventually accept the Trinity but at first it seems as though she didn't.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

I realise that Mrs White never made specific comments against the trinity in her early days, yet as more light was revealed to her she became more specific on the matter.

The pioneers were antitrinitarian, then also began to change their beliefs after realising they were incorrect. What is your point?

Jon

Lebesgue · Feb 27, 2008

Jon0388g said:
Lebesgue,

Since you still have provided zero Scripture in support of your position, please then give me your opinion of these passages:

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" Philippians 2:6-7

The greek word "kenoo" here translated "of no reputation" literally means "to make empty". Compare that to these passages:

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and My judgment is just; because I seek not Mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent Me." John 5:30

"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." John 8:28

"Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which he suffered; nd being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him" Hebrews 5:8-9

And, most obviously of all,

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Hebrews 4:15

Consider these texts and get back to me.

Jon

Do you believe Y'shua is G-d or not??

We would agree that it is IMPOSSIBLE for G-d to Sin.

Yes, He WAS tempted but being G-d it was GUARANTEED He would NOT fail.

You are using this line of reasoning to justify Ellen White's faulty idea that we have to be COMPLETELY without sin in order to be saved, which renders salvation impossible. Do you understand I NEARLY lost my faith in G-d because of this??

Do you REALLY think you can be perfect because I KNOW I can't.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

RND · Feb 27, 2008

Lebesgue said:
I would think the story of the tempation would be sufficient to show that.

I'll take it you have no scripture to back-up your POV.

Would we be tempted to turn stones into bread like Y'shua was? ONLY G-d can do something like that.

We are tempted everyday to turn the bread we received from Christ into meaningless stones.

SO my SDA Brothers and Sisters I'm confused here, do you believe Y'shua is G-d or not?? Because G-d CANNOT sin CANNOT choose to sin and CANNOT fail at ANYTHING.

You are confusing the fact that Jesus DID NOT sin for the Ffact that Jesus COULD HAVE sinned. The point hat everyone has made here, which is easily understandable, is that one CAN NOT be tempted to do something, if they are not capable of doing that which they were tempted.

Jesus easily could have fell for Satan's bait and turned stones into bread. Jesus easily could have cast himself down and worshipped Satan. Jesus easily could have cast himself off of the Temple, and been caught by God, but He did none of these things. He was tempted and could have accepted the temptation, but because He was (is) God, He did not and was able to resist the devil's temptation.

You do realise that Ellen White in her EARLY days did not seem to be a Trinitarian nor did many of the Adventist pioneers. To Ellen's credit it appears she did eventually accept the Trinity but at first it seems as though she didn't.

EGW accepted the 'Godhead' family nature of God.

Cribstyl · Feb 27, 2008

Lebesgue said:
What??? I just said I believe Y'shua is G-d!

G-d CANNOT sin, period...

I VERY MUCH believe in the Trinity.

Yes, Y'shua was tempted but being G-d His temptations were DIFFERENT than ours.

When HaSatan tempted Him to turn the rocks into bread and Y'shua responded with, "No man shall live by bread alone but EVERY word that proceedeth from the mouth of G-d", Y'shua was not only quoting Scripture but He was telling HaSatan, "Look pal, I'M the BREAD OF LIFE"

And do you understand that IF Y'shua HAD chosen to sin like you assume he could've(just because Ellen White said so) there would only have been 2/3 of the Trinity left.

And you're saying I don't believe in the Trinity?

Shalom,

Lebesgue

Friend, with your line of reasoning God cannot sin would also mean He cannot die. Then that would also suggest that Jesus did not die. And if Jesus did not die, then we're still in our sins.

God is one but His 3 natures have individual personality, the Son became flesh, He died on the cross for our sin and was resurrected to become our High Priest in the heavens. His human nature was 100% like ours, able to sin but did not yeild to temptation.

Hbr 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things [pertaining] to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

Hbr 5:2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

Hbr 5:3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

Hbr 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as [was] Aaron.
Hbr 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Hbr 5:6 As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

CRIB

RND · Feb 27, 2008

Cribstyl said:
Friend, with your line of reasoning God cannot sin would also mean He cannot die. Then that would also suggest that Jesus did not die. And if Jesus did not die, then we're still in our sins.

God is one but His 3 natures have individual personality, the Son became flesh, He died on the cross for our sin and was resurrected to become our High Priest in the heavens. His human nature was 100% like ours, able to sin but did not yeild to temptation.

Hbr 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things [pertaining] to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

Hbr 5:2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

Hbr 5:3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

Hbr 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as [was] Aaron.
Hbr 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Hbr 5:6 As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

CRIB

Wow Crib! Agreement is reached on something! I didn't know you had it in ya'!

Lebesgue · Feb 27, 2008

RND said:
I'll take it you have no scripture to back-up your POV.

We are tempted everyday to turn the bread we received from Christ into meaningless stones.

You are confusing the fact that Jesus DID NOT sin for the Ffact that Jesus COULD HAVE sinned. The point hat everyone has made here, which is easily understandable, is that one CAN NOT be tempted to do something, if they are not capable of doing that which they were tempted.

Jesus easily could have fell for Satan's bait and turned stones into bread. Jesus easily could have cast himself down and worshipped Satan. Jesus easily could have cast himself off of the Temple, and been caught by God, but He did none of these things. He was tempted and could have accepted the temptation, but because He was (is) God, He did not and was able to resist the devil's temptation.

EGW accepted the 'Godhead' family nature of God.

Astonishing! So you are saying that G-d could have sinned??? Am I correct on that??

You are saying that G-d could have failed????

You are saying we could have been left with 2/3 of a Trinity???

I am so glad that I am no longer an SDA. I believe in a G-d that CANNOT fail, that HaSatan has NO POWER against and you are saying, just because Ellen White said that Y'shua could have caved into HaSatan???

Well, given that y'all subscribe to the Great Controversy Theology that still has HaSatan in the game and with a slim chance of winning, this doesn't surprise me.

The truth is when Y'shua drew His last breath on the Cross and said "It is finished", it was GAME OVER for HaSatan.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

Lebesgue · Feb 27, 2008

Cribstyl said:
Friend, with your line of reasoning God cannot sin would also mean He cannot die. Then that would also suggest that Jesus did not die. And if Jesus did not die, then we're still in our sins.

God is one but His 3 natures have individual personality, the Son became flesh, He died on the cross for our sin and was resurrected to become our High Priest in the heavens. His human nature was 100% like ours, able to sin but did not yeild to temptation.

Hbr 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things [pertaining] to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

Hbr 5:2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

Hbr 5:3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.

Hbr 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as [was] Aaron.
Hbr 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Hbr 5:6 As he saith also in another [place], Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

CRIB

His Body died. His spirit DIDN'T.

G-d is IMMORTAL and by definition CANNOT die.

Shalom,

Reb

RND · Feb 27, 2008

Lebesgue said:
Astonishing! So you are saying that G-d could have sinned??? Am I correct on that??

As a man, in the flesh, Jesus could have most certainly sinned.

You are saying that G-d could have failed????

No, Jesus di not fail. He was sinless.

You are saying we could have been left with 2/3 of a Trinity???

No. Half of the 1/3 in your equation was man, able to be tempted just as we were.

I am so glad that I am no longer an SDA. I believe in a G-d that CANNOT fail, that HaSatan has NO POWER against and you are saying, just because Ellen White said that Y'shua could have caved into HaSatan???

Well, we're all entitled to our opinion but think about it for a second. If Jesus could have been tempted then He could have sinned.

Well, given that y'all subscribe to the Great Controversy Theology that still has HaSatan in the game and with a slim chance of winning, this doesn't surprise me.

Satan won't win, but unfortunately he does wind-up taking a number of souls with him into perdition because of false teaching.

The truth is when Y'shua drew His last breath on the Cross and said "It is finished", it was GAME OVER for HaSatan.

But not "game over" for us.

RND · Feb 27, 2008

Lebesgue said:
His Body died. His spirit DIDN'T.

His "body" ate fish and honeycomb in the upper room and Thomas stuck his finger in His hands and side. Obviously Jesus had a "body" in the upper room.

G-d is IMMORTAL and by definition CANNOT die.

God is "eternal" and cannot die. Jesus' flesh nature died as a result of the sin He bore.

Jon0388g · Feb 27, 2008

Lebesgue said:
Do you believe Y'shua is G-d or not??

We would agree that it is IMPOSSIBLE for G-d to Sin.

Yes, He WAS tempted but being G-d it was GUARANTEED He would NOT fail.

You are using this line of reasoning to justify Ellen White's faulty idea that we have to be COMPLETELY without sin in order to be saved, which renders salvation impossible. Do you understand I NEARLY lost my faith in G-d because of this??

Do you REALLY think you can be perfect because I KNOW I can't.

Shalom,

Lebesgue

Lebesgue,

Completely ignoring the Scripture which blatantly refutes your position goes no way to encouraging meaningful discussion. It is more akin to the vain babbling that goes on in this forum way too much.

Just in case you missed it the first time, here it is again.

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Hebrews 4:15

Enjoy,

Jon

Y'shua could NOT have chosen to sin

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