Your thoughts on this Scripture Please

[Wonder]

In the NT. where Paul says that we are to no longer know Jesus after the flesh...what does he mean by that? I have never heard any comments on this passage. I don't know where its companion Scripture is either.

 

[cosmokitty]

Not sure, but here are some verses.

Mt.28:20
"Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."

Mt.26:11
"For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always."

Mk.14:7
"For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always."

Jn.12:8
"For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always."

 

[EPHRIAM777]

Originally posted by Wonder
In the NT. where Paul says that we are to no longer know Jesus after the flesh...what does he mean by that? I have never heard any comments on this passage. I don't know where its companion Scripture is either.

Eph writes...

I'm gonna guess your quoting 2 COR 5:16...?

If so I think this is speaking of knowing people by the flesh..their "physical" body..and their physical deeds ...actually verses 14 thru 17 are all needed here..!..

We know what Jesus did while he was here IN the flesh as verse 16 says..yet now he is no more ( living on earth in bodily form )...ALL those who are IN Christ are NEW creatures...!

Their PAST is behind them...they are new creatures now...

We all who are IN CHRIST...get a new fresh start...!

 

[postrib]

I believe that we no longer know Jesus after his mortal flesh (1 Corinthians 15:50, 2 Corinthians 5:16), but we do still know him after his incorruptible flesh, for his body rose again from the dead (2 Corinthians 5:15):

"Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing" (John 20:27).

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke 24:39).

 

[Elan]

Originally posted by Wonder
In the NT. where Paul says that we are to no longer know Jesus after the flesh...what does he mean by that? I have never heard any comments on this passage. I don't know where its companion Scripture is either.

  Wonder,

I will also assume that 2 Cor 5:16 was the verse you had in mind when you presented your general inquiry. 

2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, since we have concluded this, that Christ died for all; therefore all have died.
5:15 And he died for all so that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised.
5:16 So then from now on we acknowledge no one from an outward human point of view. Even though we have known Christ from such a human point of view, now we do not know him in that way any longer.
5:17 So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away—look, what is new has come!
5:18 And all these things are from God who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and who has given us the ministry of reconciliation.
5:19 In other words, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people’s trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation.

From an outward human point of view there are numerous ways to evaluate the members of the human family.  Some are tall, some short, some with big noses, some with slim waists, some blue eyes, some smart, some are talkative, some are arrogant, some are boring, some are rich, some charismatic, some are mean, some are generous, some have a mystical quality, some are not the brightest crayon in the box and there are many more fleshy discriminations.  In Jesus’ day some may have thought of Him as just a carpenter, or a nice Hebrew man, or a free-loafer, a starter of a new cult, a troublemaker, or just an average person.

The death and resurrection of Christ is the great equalizer of humanity.  Christ died for all (v.14).  Consequently, all have died (v.14).   Many are not aware of this accomplishment.  He didn’t die more for some and less for others; He died equally for all, regardless of fleshy attributes or behaviors.  If He died for all, and He did, then there is no human quality that is better than another or elicits special attention from Him.  He does not discriminate according to any human quality.  He did not qualify his death for any race, color, creed, sex, religion or other partiality.  Death levels the human activity field very nicely.  Out from the death we find life.  This new life does not discriminate from an outward human point of view, but according to the life that is in Christ. 

We who live should no longer live as we have but in new life; in Christ.  What is significant is a new creation in Christ.  In Christ is the new vantage point.  In Christ is a viewpoint that God has conciliated Himself to the world through Christ.  Kinda sounds like good news to me!

Maranatha……

 

[Wonder]

That was great, thanks Elan. Although I have seen that He died for all men...that one Scripture I didn't understand. I had never thought of the two thoughts together.
Let me ask you this...if we aren't to know Him after the flesh...then after we have been brought to the cross, so to say, then how are we to get to know Him in Spirit? How would one know Him? Are the works He done in the flesh to be done by Him through us now? If so what are they, the works of the spirit should be something that can be seen on site...as fruit on a tree?...Just trying to grasp a foothold on who we trust our salvation to.
It isn't that I don't know the NT. just don't understand it. The OT was alot easier for me. Although I have studied the Bible, alot of it He has yet to set in my heart...therefore I am trying to relate it to something I know.
thanks again.

 

[Elan]

Originally posted by Wonder
That was great, thanks Elan. Although I have seen that He died for all men...that one Scripture I didn't understand. I had never thought of the two thoughts together.
Let me ask you this...if we aren't to know Him after the flesh...then after we have been brought to the cross, so to say, then how are we to get to know Him in Spirit? How would one know Him? Are the works He done in the flesh to be done by Him through us now? If so what are they, the works of the spirit should be something that can be seen on site...as fruit on a tree?...Just trying to grasp a foothold on who we trust our salvation to.
It isn't that I don't know the NT. just don't understand it. The OT was alot easier for me. Although I have studied the Bible, alot of it He has yet to set in my heart...therefore I am trying to relate it to something I know.
thanks again.

  Wonder,


That was great, thanks Elan. 

Blessed be His Name.  I do sincerely thank you for your gentle probing follow-up inquiries for they have stirred my mind toward blessed thoughts.  Thank you. 

Although I have seen that He died for all men...that one Scripture I didn't understand. I had never thought of the two thoughts together. 

I marvel in the way the Lord moves our hearts.  He is working a good work in us.  He not only desires to bring us close to Himself, I will dare to suggest that indeed He hankers for us.   Ohhhh, but alas our human time factors seem to be of no particular concern to Him.  But most assuredly, absolutely, He will is, and He is able, to bring us so close to Himself that only the Spirit can bear witness to the love He has for us, right now.   

Let me ask you this...if we aren't to know Him after the flesh...then after we have been brought to the cross, so to say, then how are we to get to know Him in Spirit? 

For some reason this sentence really catches my attention.  I like your use of the phrase “after we have been brought to the cross”, it simply drips with the wonder working of Spirit of God.  We don’t climb up onto the cross, He brings us there.  The cross is the high point for our flesh.  It is the closest that any flesh will ever get to Him.  And just a heartbeat past the cross is our death, kerplunk – right into His death.  After all, the ultimate attainment of the flesh is death.  The wonderment of death is the stillness involved.  So quiet, so lacking …. lacking activity.  And there we rest, in His death, quietly, patiently, humbly waiting for Him to make His next move, according to His good pleasure.  But we are assured that something marvelous has occurred and we expectantly hope for something new.  He started the work in us by bringing us to the cross and He will finish His workmanship.  He started the work, let us not resurrect ourselves in the flesh in an attempt to accomplish only that which He can perform.

The last phrase your sentence, “then how are we to get to know Him in Spirit?”.  I will take the liberty of twisting it somewhat and then ask you to answer my new question.  “How are we brought to know Him in Spirit?”.  What say ye?    

In Colossians 3 the scriptures give us an inkling of where we are and where we are going. 


Col 3:1 Therefore, if you have been raised with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

3:2 Keep thinking about things above, not things on the earth,

3:3 for you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

3:4 When Christ (who is your life) appears, then you too will be revealed in glory with him.

How would one know Him? 

When we read the word faith in the scripture, in the majority of cases, it is safe to read confidence.  Try reading Hebrews 11 with confidence in mind.  The more we know of how He sees and knows us, the more we really know ourselves.  How I sorely desire to know myself as He knows me in Himself. 

Are the works He’s done in the flesh to be done by Him through us now? 

I feel uncomfortable with this inquiry as such.  The words “in the flesh” seems out of place, but I think I follow the substance of the question.  I will understand the words “in the flesh” to mean “in His earthly manifestation” or “in His human body”.  Thank you for your patience.  Answer…..Yes, I believe so.  Or try this one.  Are the works He’s done in His human body being done by Him though us now?  Answer… a thousand times, Yes.  But again, it’s not us, it’s Him (we enjoy His love work in us)  .  Now, another inquiry for you, Wonder.  If He decides to not do His works in us, what does that mean?      

If so what are they, the works of the spirit should be something that can be seen on site...as fruit on a tree? 

The Liquidambar tree can take as long as seven years to manifest its first flower.  As the tree grounds itself into the substance of the earth and matures it brings forth fruit in due season.  But all the while it is still a Liquidambar tree.  For sure I’m still growing in the Lord, I have not obtained (because I am yet on this side of His second coming).  Let us seek to be patient with ourselves and one another, slow to anger and careful in judgments.  For about the first thirty years of His life, Jesus did not “do” any works comparable to what He did after the Spirit anointed Him in power.  Nonetheless, He was still the Lord’s Christ, even while an infant.  Everything in His time.  We are His purchased possession.  We are sons and daughter of God in Christ.  There is positively nothing we do about this wonderful problem.  May as well get use to it.         

...Just trying to grasp a foothold on who we trust our salvation to.  The Lord is our salvation.

It isn't that I don't know the NT. just don't understand it. The OT was alot easier for me. Although I have studied the Bible, alot of it He has yet to set in my heart...therefore I am trying to relate it to something I know.
thanks again.

Seek and you will find.  The rub is this… there seems to be no quantitative way to know if I have sought with all my heart, mind, strength.  If I find something is it right to stop seeking?  How long do I need to seek before I find or before the Lord reveals.  Trust our salvation to the absolutely, perfectly, completed work of our Lord Jesus Christ - - this is our Rock.  Thank you for sharing this brief exchange.  May the Lord continue in His rich blessings toward you.

Maranatha…….

 

[Wonder]

“then how are we to get to know Him in Spirit?”.

If we know Him in the Spirit, would He not be showing us how He made it...
So He would be showing us things we need to do that He did before us. Like take the "fruit" would that be the tassels, phlacteries etc. It seems that He wore all that because He did the Law perfectly, therefore He shows us how so we too can make it. Thats how I see it ...but no one else I can find does these things.

Now, another inquiry for you, Wonder. If He decides to not do His works in us, what does that mean?

Alot of people say that they see that it is the Lord that deals with people in the OT. I always assume that it is the same Lord we have in the NT. If so then doesn't His instructions include all the OT? The instructions found in the OT are His instructions given to people who came from bondage and didn't know Him...If one doesn't know Him...wouldn't that be a good place to start? I think people see going to the OT for Him to teach...is somehow working for salvation so we don't do it. Hindering the Spirit to teach.
Those who do see that the tassels and things are to be worn, go to the Jews to be taught...instead of doing as the Scriptures say. We seem to want to follow something we can see...be it anyone. Its so hard to see the Spirit.
Thats the only way I know to answer those questions...hope it was what you were looking for..
In His Love

 

[Theresa]

Jesus would have practiced the Mosaic Law perfectly, both outwardly and inwardly. The problems with the Jews in Jesus' time was that many of them were only following the Law outwardly, by works (following the Law, wearing the clothes, fasting) and forgetting what the Law was built upon and for, faith and loving God and one another. Many people today assert the opposite, that faith is necessary but works are not, and yet we see Jesus doing both. The Good Fruit that Jesus speaks of is we who, having faith in Christ, is Christ working through our faith to feed the hungry, etc, so a true and living faith produces good fruit, good works.

Jesus didn't come to do away with the Law, but to perfect it. Some things are no longer applicable from the OT because Jesus perfected them by his life, death and resurrection. We no longer need to sacrifice a lamb for the passover feast, because he is the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" and we offer and recieve the benefits of the sacrifice when we recieve communion, etc., etc,. We are still required to obey the Ten Commandments because they all serve to teach the same thing, which Jesus summed up nicely by giving the two new commandments, which weren't actually new, just a summation of everything God had told us before. Many of the OT figures foreshadow NT things, and we can understand the NT things by understanding the OT. Many people would say that the OT is irrelevent now that we have the NT, but we find that thye both complement each other. St. Augustine said, "The OT is the NT concealed and the NT is the OT revealed." You would do well to understand why the Jews believe what they do. I do think that we should understand Jewish beliefs and teachings better before we try to interpret the Bible. Many of the teachings of the Jews are lost to this modern society and therefore, private interpretation tends to be incomplete.

The one thing I've discovered so far that is incredibly profound is how the passover feast reflects communion which I mentioned above. I read an article that went step by step through the Passover and related that step by step to the night Jesus died, and it was awesome!! Maybe I'll start a thread about it.

Thanx, Luv
Theresa

 

[Wonder]

You say "We no longer need to sacrifice a lamb for the passover feast, because he is the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world".
So in my eyes we still do the feast...only He is the Lamb we use.
He is also the Green Ears of Barley for the wave sheaf offering.... In fact for every feast..you will find He is what you need to fulfill the feast.
The Jews in my eyes, just as the Christians are good to learn some things from but I find them both confusing. I take whatever I read from either of them and compare to Scripture. Alot of good thoughts on both sides. But do only what the Scripture says.
I enjoy reading both from Jewish sites as well as Christian...but depend on neither. I find the Messianics are kinda in between the two.
My problem seems to be understanding the fruit..to me fruit is something that can be seen. You shouldn't have to get to know someone to see what is in their heart. When John the baptist was baptizing he made comments on showing signs of repentance. There are just things in the NT that leads me to thinks the fruit is to be seen...unlike feeding someone etc. Most of those kinds of deeds in my eyes should be done in private as not to embarass the one in need...Most churches etc. that help feed, seems as though one has to beg and give information that one shouldn't have to give up just to eat. I know, I have asked for food before...and I never did again because how low one is made to feel just to eat.
I guess I could talk forever....thanks for listening.

 

[Theresa]

There are a few things we can look at:

Matt 3:10 - "The axe is ready to cut down the trees at the roots: every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."

Matt 7:17 - "Be on your guard against false prophets; they come to you looking like sheep on the outside, but on the inside they are really like wild wolves. You will know them by what they do. Thorn bushes do not bear grapes, and briars do not bear figs. A healthy tree bears good fruit, but a poor tree bears bad fruit.....and any tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire....."

Col 1:10 - "And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God."



I know what you are saying, how it is embarassing to ask strangers for things. But the people who are loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, kind, good and faithful are the ones who bear good fruit. Sometimes all the good things they do are seen only by God and you know only that they are good people, and sometimes you can see what they do (ie. Mother Theresa, Ghandi, etc.).

In Luke, John says, "The axe is ready to cut down the trees at the roots; every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire." The people asked him, "What are we to do, then?" He answered, "whoever has two shirts must give one to the man who has none........."

Thanx, Luv
Theresa

 

[Elan]

 

2 Cor 5:15 And he died for all so that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised.
5:16 So then from now on we acknowledge no one from an outward human point of view.  Even though we have known Christ from such a human point of view, now we do not know him in that way any longer.
5:17 So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away—look, what is new has come!

The old, or fleshy, way of looking at ourselves, others and Christ is through the context of the law.  Doing this or doing that, or not doing this or not doing that.  An effort to be righteous by means of the law, or an attempt of account righteousness to someone else using the law, often leads to critical judgments about ourselves and/or others.  But this is where the law leads and the flesh agrees.  It's easy...

He died for all.  Certainly not all know this tidbit of information and fewer yet believe it, but He did.  The law has been completely fulfilled to the absolute satisfaction of the Father, even to the last minuscule detail, by the perfect life and sacrifice of Christ Jesus.  There is not one single thing that any of us can do that will elicit better favor from the Father than that which could only be accomplished by His perfect lamb offering. 

The new way of looking at Him, and all mankind for that matter, is in the new life in Christ.  Being in Christ affords us a vantage point that was simply not allotted to God’s Old Testament, “law-keeping” people.  He fulfilled all the law’s requirements.  Insomuch that it is fulfilled it is behind Him.  The law leads to death and He accomplished death as well.   Likewise, those who are established in Christ not longer reference the rigors of keeping the law, for behold there’s come onto the scene something more splendid. 

If we are knowing Him in exactly the same way as He is knowing us – BINGO!  If we are knowing one another just as He is knowing each of us – BINGO!  What is old has passed away- look, what is new has come!  So, in what way does He look at us??  Perhaps in another thread…..

Maranatha......

 

[Wonder]

So I guess people are saying the fruit of the Spirit of their fruit...we have no fruit...just the Spirit does. The Scriptures tells us that we are to bear fruit. And those who bear fruit will do the works of the Spirit...does no one know what our fruit is?

 

[Blade]

I like what this says about 2cor 5:16

In view of the fact that we do not know any man after the flesh, not even Christ, it is vain for any man to profess relationship with Christ according to the flesh, while he is unchanged in heart and life and dead in trespassess and sins.

We did look at Christ in the flesh  as a man, but now we no longer in terms of the flesh.

 

[Pastor N.B.]

Originally posted by Wonder
So I guess people are saying the fruit of the Spirit of their fruit...we have no fruit...just the Spirit does. The Scriptures tells us that we are to bear fruit. And those who bear fruit will do the works of the Spirit...does no one know what our fruit is?

******
Hi,
What do you get out of 2 Cor. 3:3? What does EPISTLE mean? The 'letter of WHOM'? Epistle or letter!! It is the MORAL WITNESS of the persons [character], which is the HEART TRANSPLANT or the New Birth! See John 3:5-8.

How could anyone be a BORN AGAIN SAVED SAINT, & have NO LOVING works for [their] letter, or their [testimony] of the Master????
It would find one in the class of Rev. 3:16-17's 'spewed out' (making the Master sick) ---P/N/B/

 

[Wonder]

quote:
"Hi,
What do you get out of 2 Cor. 3:3? What does EPISTLE mean? The 'letter of WHOM'? Epistle or letter!! It is the MORAL WITNESS of the persons [character], which is the HEART TRANSPLANT or the New Birth! See John 3:5-8."

2 Cor. 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministerd by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God: not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

What I see in that after much thought and prayer is;
epistle is a formal or elegant letter.
manifestly is to become visible, it would stand out...like a light on a table top.
If something is written on the heart...it becomes manifest...it would then be seen on the flesh. It would hang as fruit on a tree.
If something is living, as the Word in the heart...it then grows and becomes manifested...if it was written on stone, it lays cold. So when one sees that Jesus is the Lord of the OT..and DOES what He asks us to do...The Word..Jesus..The Law...etc. becomes manifested.
You will really get up in the morning and put Him on..then seals you with the oil of His people.
If I learned who He is from the OT. while He was in Spirit, how can I know Him in the flesh?
I learned from Him...in the OT...He brought me to the flesh...just to prove to me that He is the one spoken of in the OT...The One who was to come and is to come.
He is the child of the 7 barron women. They each spoke of Him.
Every book written is written of Him.
I see that I have become baptized in Him ... putting Him on every morning. He covers me daily in a written epistle. The living Word.

Quote:
How could anyone be a BORN AGAIN SAVED SAINT, & have NO LOVING works for [their] letter, or their [testimony] of the Master????
It would find one in the class of Rev. 3:16-17's 'spewed out' (making the Master sick) ---P/N/B/

Rev. 3:16-17
So then because thou art luke warm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.
Because thou sayist, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

This seems to me to speaking of those who are not on fire for Him. Or don't do as He says...for if you Love Him you would keep His commandments. As once stated...I find it is Him teaching those who do not know Him...He is found in the OT...teaching.
If He is a consumming fire, the only way to stand in that day is to be on fire.
I am not naked...for He covers me.

 

[Theresa]

Sorry, Wonder. I would like to have a conversation with you but your style of writing makes it really hard to understand what you are saying.

Peace
Theresa

 

[Wonder]

If there is anything I have written that you don't catch I would be glad to reword it if I can...If I can help...just ask. I personally find NT speakers hard to understand. Somehow He will bring both together. Patience and persistance on our part will probably be alot of it.

 

[Elan]

Originally posted by Wonder
So I guess people are saying the fruit of the Spirit of their fruit...we have no fruit...just the Spirit does. The Scriptures tells us that we are to bear fruit. And those who bear fruit will do the works of the Spirit...does no one know what our fruit is?

  Wonder,

I assume that the scripture you allude to is John 15, if this is not the case, please give me directions…..

John 15:1 “I am the true vine and my Father is the gardener. 15:2 He takes away every branch that does not bear fruit in me. He prunes every branch that bears fruit so that it will bear more fruit. 15:3 You are clean already because of the word that I have spoken to you. 15:4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. 15:5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in me—and I in him—bears much fruit, because apart from me you can accomplish nothing. 15:6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is thrown out like a branch, and dries up; and such branches are gathered up and thrown into the fire, and are burned up. 15:7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you want, and it will be done for you. 15:8 My Father is honored by this, that you bear much fruit and show that you are my disciples.

Our connection to Him bears much fruit.  It’s not our fruit that results from this connection.  It’s His.  You do get to experience the life flow that produces the fruit and you do get to see fruit go forth from you.  Perhaps it may seem overly nitpicky, but the actual fruit does not original with us.  It’s the Spirit working the pleasure of God in and through us.

The fruit is multi-faceted.  It may be a gentle rebuke here, or it may be lovingkindness there, etc.  Look at the wide diversity of fruit that the Lord Jesus Christ exhibited during the course of His sojourn on earth.  The key in this John passage is abiding in HIM.   

In Christ 

 

[Wonder]

I guess it isn't the one I was speaking of. In fact we were talking of the fruits of repentance, spoken of by John the Baptist. There is mention of fruit of righteousness in the OT...is it the same as the NT.? What is the fruit from the treasures of the heart etc....what is manifested from the heart that becomes our fruit...The only thing I see He places on our hearts is His Laws.
I know the Messiah, Jesus, wore the phlacteries, tassels etc. Instead of wearing WWJD bracelets why don't we simply wear what He wore. If He is truely our example, then why aren't we following His way?
Why did so much change after His death? He never changes! The only real change I have found is that if you don't want to keep the law, then don't. But don't just pick and choose what one will do...and if you do keep it, then do it cause you love Him and want to be just like Him. How can people say we must tithe, yet ignore all the rest of the OT?
I know this may not be the thread but I know people have noticed that we have followed the NT for many years, and we are still dying etc. We have to be doing something wrong. We need people who will seek Him and His work before He became flesh. He taught people of Israel, He can and will teach us if we seek Him, not in the flesh. The OT and the NT must come together or this house will not stand. It is divided, I don't think it is either one or the other...but one must learn to live by both. The ones living just the OT dies just as the ones that just keep the NT. Could it be we keep the Laws and the faith?