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Your thoughts on "presuppositional apologetics"

Athanasias

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What are your thoughts as a traditional Christian on presuppositional apologetics?
presuppositional apologetics is defined as:

"a school of Christian apologetics that believes the Christian faith is the only basis for rational thought. It presupposes that the Bible is divine revelation and attempts to expose flaws in other world views."


Catholics do not adhere to it at all. We do teach fides et ratio(faith and reason go together) but that is a different thing altogether. We tend to take a more Thomistic approach to these things. I am not a fan of this type of apologetics and I think it has circular flaws and does not work to evangelize very well.

What are your thoughts on presuppositional apologetics?
 

Theodore A. Jones

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What are your thoughts as a traditional Christian on presuppositional apologetics?
presuppositional apologetics is defined as:

"a school of Christian apologetics that believes the Christian faith is the only basis for rational thought. It presupposes that the Bible is divine revelation and attempts to expose flaws in other world views."


Catholics do not adhere to it at all. We do teach fides et ratio(faith and reason go together) but that is a different thing altogether. We tend to take a more Thomistic approach to these things. I am not a fan of this type of apologetics and I think it has circular flaws and does not work to evangelize very well.

What are your thoughts on presuppositional apologetics?
Clarify your OP. "We tend to take a more Thomistic" followed by "I am not a fan of this type of apologetics". Do you mean you are not a fan of the Thomistic system?
 
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Athanasias

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Clarify your OP. "We tend to take a more Thomistic" followed by "I am not a fan of this type of apologetics". Do you mean you are not a fan of the Thomistic system?
Ok Sure. Oh no no no I am not a fan of presuppositional apologetics. Catholics in general do not engage in presuppositional apologetics(at least not many that I know of) We have a different intellectual tradition then that . I do adhere to a more Thomistic approach as do most Catholics in regards to these issues.
 
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Theodore A. Jones

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Ok Sure. Oh no no no I am not a fan of presuppositional apologetics. Catholics in general do not engage in presuppositional apologetics(at least not many that I know of) We have a different intellectual tradition then that . I do adhere to a more Thomistic approach as do most Catholics in regards to these issues.
So then describe what this "Thomistic approach" you have so much faith in is? OK?
 
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Athanasias

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So then describe what this "Thomistic approach" you have so much faith in is? OK?
Well when dialoging with atheist for example I start with the premise of causality and observe nature and what man can know from reason alone and intellect and build it from their eventually leading up to all the other things. I do not start with the premise that this is true because the bible says so and its inspired. I take it piece by piece.
 
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Theodore A. Jones

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Well when dialoging with atheist for example I start with the premise of causality and observe nature and what man can know from reason alone and intellect and build it from their eventually leading up to all the other things. I do not start with the premise that this is true because the bible says so and its inspired. I take it piece by piece.
I am not an atheist for example.
 
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Athanasias

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I am not an atheist for example.
Ok so if we have God in common then I need to go to which God? We can talk about several religions Islam, Judiasm, Hindu, and Christianity for example looking at claims of thier Gods .That would be my next step.
 
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Theodore A. Jones

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Ok so if we have God in common then I need to go to which God? We can talk about several religions Islam, Judiasm, Hindu, and Christianity for example looking at claims of thier Gods .That would be my next step.
I am not affiliated with nor a supporter of any contemporary soteriological perspective. And there is no "which God" Only God who has been manifested in flesh by Jesus Christ. All things have been made by Him and for Him and you shall not serve any other god.
 
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Athanasias

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I am not affiliated with nor a supporter of any contemporary soteriological perspective. And there is no "which God" Only God who has been manifested in flesh by Jesus Christ. All things have been made by Him and for Him and you shall not serve any other god.
Yes I know that is why you use a presuppositional approach(which came out nicely) and I do not.
Now if we both believe in the one true God and Jesus Christ and the Blessed Trinity then its a question of Which Church did Jesus establish really. Then history, logic/ philosophy, theology, scripture, miracles, negative evidence etc all come into play.
 
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Presuppositional apologetics is Biblical. I have learned much from Sye Ten Bruggencate who makes things simple, and Tony Miano and others have also used this as well as proclaiming the Gospel.

Romans 1 makes it clear that people know God exists, but they suppress the truth in unrighteousness. People know the only true God exists. People who claim to be atheists have presuppositions as well. People need revelation from the One who knows everything to be able to know anything for certain. Knowledge itself presupposes God.

Presup. Apologetics is not the Gospel itself. It is helpful, because unbelievers are not the judge of God, and God can use the apologetic to get people to admit what they are denying. Still, it is the Holy Spirit who finally convicts hearts. The Law and Gospel still need to be proclaimed...the Law to point out sin and the judgment we rightly deserve, and that nothing a person can do can in any way save them or contribute to their salvation and the forgiveness of the debt that can never be paid by us. Even good works are filthy rags. Judaizers thought they could supplement Christ's sacrifice and faith with their works, but it is only through the grace and mercy of Christ that God chooses some dead sinners who rebel against the God they know exists and regenerates them and gives faith apart from works of the law. As a Christian, I do not consider the RCC as a Christian faith, because works are added to faith. Also, "sacred tradition" (that is not the Biblical tradition) and papacy are put on the level with the Bible, etc.

The Bible has the Words of God, and whatever religion that puts anything as equal to that or adds to or subtracts from the truth therein and the Gospel message lies about who God is. Mormons, Islam, etc. all have twisted and added false beliefs. Presup. & the Bible lets us know that God has made Himself evident to us, but people have traded the truth for a lie.
 
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Shane R

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Presuppositional apologetics is Biblical.

That is a circular argument if ever there was one. You have presupposed that Biblical equates to true and have supported your thesis by citing the Bible. In the context of debate, that doesn't hold much water and is not going to impress anyone who doubted before hearing you out.

I'm not saying that I disagree with your conclusion; I am saying that it is poorly argued. By the way, are you Lutheran?
 
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What are your thoughts as a traditional Christian on presuppositional apologetics?
presuppositional apologetics is defined as:

"a school of Christian apologetics that believes the Christian faith is the only basis for rational thought. It presupposes that the Bible is divine revelation and attempts to expose flaws in other world views."


Catholics do not adhere to it at all. We do teach fides et ratio(faith and reason go together) but that is a different thing altogether. We tend to take a more Thomistic approach to these things. I am not a fan of this type of apologetics and I think it has circular flaws and does not work to evangelize very well.

What are your thoughts on presuppositional apologetics?

How do you define "rational thought" (and also "irrational thought")?
 
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Athanasias

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Presuppositional apologetics is Biblical. I have learned much from Sye Ten Bruggencate who makes things simple, and Tony Miano and others have also used this as well as proclaiming the Gospel.

Romans 1 makes it clear that people know God exists, but they suppress the truth in unrighteousness. People know the only true God exists. People who claim to be atheists have presuppositions as well. People need revelation from the One who knows everything to be able to know anything for certain. Knowledge itself presupposes God.

Presup. Apologetics is not the Gospel itself. It is helpful, because unbelievers are not the judge of God, and God can use the apologetic to get people to admit what they are denying. Still, it is the Holy Spirit who finally convicts hearts. The Law and Gospel still need to be proclaimed...the Law to point out sin and the judgment we rightly deserve, and that nothing a person can do can in any way save them or contribute to their salvation and the forgiveness of the debt that can never be paid by us. Even good works are filthy rags. Judaizers thought they could supplement Christ's sacrifice and faith with their works, but it is only through the grace and mercy of Christ that God chooses some dead sinners who rebel against the God they know exists and regenerates them and gives faith apart from works of the law. As a Christian, I do not consider the RCC as a Christian faith, because works are added to faith. Also, "sacred tradition" (that is not the Biblical tradition) and papacy are put on the level with the Bible, etc.

The Bible has the Words of God, and whatever religion that puts anything as equal to that or adds to or subtracts from the truth therein and the Gospel message lies about who God is. Mormons, Islam, etc. all have twisted and added false beliefs. Presup. & the Bible lets us know that God has made Himself evident to us, but people have traded the truth for a lie.
Ok Well I would politely disagree here brother. I am sorry you do not consider the Catholic Church a Christian Church. You sound very Lutheran in your approach. Perhaps you can benefit from seeing the dialogs on the Lutheran documents that Mark a Lutheran and I are having.

It seems you want to bring in all kinds of issues to this dialog like Apostolic tradition which is in scripture(2 Thess 2:15) the Papacy, works, judiazers heresy etc. Well I have a standing challenge to anyone to prayerfully dialog one on one in the debate section about the Papacy and its merits biblically and historically if you want dialog there hit me up.
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-office-of-the-papacy.7861615/



As for works I would also politely disagree here. The big difference that St. Paul makes in Romans and Galatians is that Judiazers wanted to keep the mosaic law and those ritual works( ie circumcision which was to no avail because it has been fulfilled by the sacrament of Baptism in the New covenant Col 2). Apart from Gods grace in the new covenant our works are like rags because all have fallen. This is the point of (Is 64) However after one is justified and sanctified in Christ then His grace builds on our nature and perfects it. So good works done in God's grace that are not strictly keeping the "Mosiac law"(as we are not under Moses anymore but are under Christ and his law) are beneficial and do in fact merit eternal life according to St. Paul in those same books(Rom 2:5-9 Gal 6:6-10).

Presuppositional apologetics is very circular and that is why many presuppositional apologist have a hard time converting atheist when debating. it shows the striking difference between the approach that Christian fundamentalist like Kirk Cameron use and solid Christian philosophers and theologians like Catholic St. Thomas Aquinas, and Protestant Dr. William Lane Craig use in debates.

Presuppositional apologetics basically is a bankrupt system that proves little because its says "the bible says so because the bible says so and its right". Thats all good if you already believe the bible to be God word as then you have a commonality to start with but if you do not then its a real issue. It really a fundamentalist tactic to use presuppostional apologetics. And any religion can do the same. "the book of Mormon is true because the book of Mormon says its true" or the Koran says so because the Koran says so". Fundamentalism is essentially at the same core in most world religions.

St. Paul in Romans 1 was not using presupposiitonal apologetics at all. He says "Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse" (Rom 1:20). Here Paul is not saying believe God because his word says so and we can assume the bible is Gods word. Rather what he is showing is that God gave man a spiritual gift of an intellect and by this intellect man can know or perceive God through his natural creation or order(ie the world or universe).

This is a logical and philosophical argument using what philosophers call the argument from nature or the argument from design. This can also be applied to the philosophical arguments of causality, contingency, change, degrees of perfection etc. They have nothing to do with presuppositon of the bible as God's revelation or the Christian faith. What they do show is that man can know God or a higher power exist for certain by his perception of created things in this world. Now one can say that Paul was writing to Christians and Jews in Rome and that is true so in that sense they did have a similar understanding of revelation.

But Socrates and many Philosophers never had divine revelation and came to see by logic or what we call natural revelation(what Paul talks about) that God exist. So I start with reason alone not presuppositions that the Christian faith is the only right way.
 
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Athanasias

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How do you define "rational thought" (and also "irrational thought")?
The use of the spiritual power of reason or the intellectual gifts that God gave man. Socrates for example knew God existed apart from divine revelation in the Christian faith. So logic and reason can show a man these truths. We do not start with the Christian faith. We start with what can be known from natural revelation/philosophy reason etc then we move to Christ and so on. does that makes sense to you?
 
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So when we couple:

Christian faith is the only basis for rational thought

to rational thought being defined as:

The use of the spiritual power of reason or the intellectual gifts that God gave man

We get:

"Christian faith is the only basis for the use of the spiritual power of reason or the intellectual gifts that God gave man."

I think these are two different propositions:

(a) Christian faith is the only basis for the use of the spiritual power of reason that God gave man

(b) Christian faith is the only basis for the use of the intellectual gifts that God gave man​

Regarding (a), I would argue that the power of reason in itself is not nor has any spiritual power. Any spiritual power that we have is by virtue of grace and is something that is imparted to us and not something that comes from within us. Since we cannot say that Christian faith is the only basis for the use of something that does not exist, (a) cannot be true. (It is interesting, I think, that in engineering terms power is the rate at which energy is received or expended. Grace is discussed in eastern Christianity in terms of the "energy" of God, which corresponds well to a discussion of "spiritual power").

Proposition (b) is certainly not true. Because we have free will, we are free to use the intellectual gifts (i.e. our mind) in any way that we choose.
 
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Catholics do not adhere to it at all. We do teach fides et ratio(faith and reason go together) but that is a different thing altogether. We tend to take a more Thomistic approach to these things.

I think aligning our reason with our faith is a proper thing, but that treating faith and reason as two parallel channels to truth is not correct. Through faith, we accept Divine Revelation, which is complete and is not supplemented by reason, although we can and should employ our reason to understand what has been revealed to us. When we attempt, however, to determine truth solely by virtue of our reason when we have been given the gift of Divine Revelation posits an image of a "theologian" hunched over his writing telling Christ, who is at his side, "Just one minute, Lord; I almost have it." I think Thomas Aquinas realized this at the very end of his life when he said, "All that I have written seems like so much straw compared to what I have seen and what has been revealed to me."
 
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Athanasias

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I think aligning our reason with our faith is a proper thing, but that treating faith and reason as two parallel channels to truth is not correct. Through faith, we accept Divine Revelation, which is complete and is not supplemented by reason, although we can and should employ our reason to understand what has been revealed to us. When we attempt, however, to determine truth solely by virtue of our reason when we have been given the gift of Divine Revelation posits an image of a "theologian" hunched over his writing telling Christ, who is at his side, "Just one minute, Lord; I almost have it." I think Thomas Aquinas realized this at the very end of his life when he said, "All that I have written seems like so much straw compared to what I have seen and what has been revealed to me."

Goodness you seem to have the wrong idea about St. Thomas. St. Thomas sought the true ,good and beautiful and realized that you cannot put into human words the complete beauty and truth and goodness about God in many ways. That is why he said what he did towards the end of his life about his works. But Christ verified his works and studies so he would not throw them to the curb.

However lets remember he did not rely on his knowledge of philosophy alone or theology but rather submitted himself entirely to Christ Jesus when he would weekly prostrate himself in front of the crucifix and bang his head on the tabernacle containing the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist asking Christ for His wisdom and knowledge and guidance in truth on these doctrines. And lets also not forget Christ Jesus also gave him several confirmations supernaturally that he was doing well in understanding His truth as Jesus himself appeared to St. Thomas(as witnesses by others) confirming him that he has done well in explaining the Eucharistic reality of transubstantiation with his philosophy and reason and that is just as one example.

Faith and reason have always gone to together and the early Church recognized this largely(except Tertullian). Faith if its supernatural faith(there are different types of faith) is above reason but not contradictory to it. The Greeks such as Socrates could know by light of the gift of reason alone that God existed and there was only one God. So there are things that the gift of reason can know apart from divine revelation(scripture and tradition). Its proven historically. So we can know God exist and there is only one God by reason alone. Socrates did and so did others using the gifts of reason alone. However we cannot know the fuller nature of God as Trinity unless he reveals it to us hence we have 2 different types of revelation ie divine and natural revelation. Natural revelation is what man can know by reason and nature like Socrates and Divine revelation is what man can only know by God revealing it to man like the Jews and Christians in scripture and tradition.


Reason certainly is a spiritual power because it is not a physical thing in the body but a gift to the soul. Now certainly you are right and Gods grace must be active in the soul to enlighten the intellect and reason. But one does not ever need to see the Christian faith as only reason for rational thought. God gives his grace to whom he gives his grace to. We cannot even ask the question does God exist apart from that grace. So God gave his grace to Socrates and other philosophers who were seeking after truth even when they did not have divine revelation.
 
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wait are we agreeing on this then? Now I am confused. LOL

I thought that the original proposition that you were disputing was:
the Christian faith is the only basis for rational thought

Given your later definition that rational thought is:

The use of the spiritual power of reason or the intellectual gifts that God gave man

I recast your single proposition into two:

(a) Christian faith is the only basis for the use of the spiritual power of reason that God gave man

(b) Christian faith is the only basis for the use of the intellectual gifts that God gave man

To answer your question, I think we agree in that I believe (a) and (b) are not true.

I think what you really meant to write in your OP, though, was that presuppositional apologetics is defined as a school of Christian apologetics that believes the Christian faith is the only valid basis for rational thought, given your definition for rational thought. As it stands, practically anything could be the basis for the use of the intellectual gifts that God gave us.
 
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