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Your Thoughts on Creation & Evolution

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EastCoastRemnant

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Frogs and dogs share a common terrestrial tetrapod ancestor.
Terrestrial Vertebrates
How do you know this? How can you state something as a fact that is nothing more than a guess? Why is my guess any less credible than someone else's? How do you know it wasn't aliens that developed these different common ancestors? Or maybe that God created them all? Each requires faith so why chose evolution?


Do you honestly expect us to take childish mockery like this seriously?
You call it childish mockery, I call it what I read in every evolutionary article I've ever read, fantasy.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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I am quite open to be shown that evolution is fundamentally wrong. (Despite my age I still think I am a rebel. More fool I.) Are you open to considering that you have it wrong, or is it simply your intent to make hamfisted attack on something you (currently) do not understand?

Perhaps we can reach an understanding. What, in your view, is the single biggest weakness of evolutionary theory?
Evolutionary theory is as much a religion as Christianity is... both require faith to understand the unseen. What is the most galling is this premise that evolution is scientific fact (I know, only theories) that cannot be questioned. I find the usurping of evolutionary science in every level of academia over creation science to be a deliberate attack on God. Ask Dawkins or Degrasse their opinions of faith and you will find mockery to the extreme. It reminds me of the newest phenomenon happening in our "higher" centers of learning at the moment... namely inclusion and acceptance of anything except what they don't agree with... liberalism without borders. It's an echo chamber mentality that doesn't allow reasoned discussion and even sees any opposition as bigoted, racist, phobic in some way or another, even though these beliefs make up the minority opinion in society... at least for the moment. Just as evolution was at one time the minority position among academics, through the successive push for creationism and God to removed from our schools, it has claimed defacto eminence through it's campaign of subversion and exclusion.
 
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Speedwell

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Evolutionary theory is as much a religion as Christianity is... both require faith to understand the unseen. What is the most galling is this premise that evolution is scientific fact (I know, only theories) that cannot be questioned. I find the usurping of evolutionary science in every level of academia over creation science to be a deliberate attack on God. Ask Dawkins or Degrasse their opinions of faith and you will find mockery to the extreme. It reminds me of the newest phenomenon happening in our "higher" centers of learning at the moment... namely inclusion and acceptance of anything except what they don't agree with... liberalism without borders. It's an echo chamber mentality that doesn't allow reasoned discussion and even sees any opposition as bigoted, racist, phobic in some way or another, even though these beliefs make up the minority opinion in society... at least for the moment. Just as evolution was at one time the minority position among academics, through the successive push for creationism and God to removed from our schools, it has claimed defacto eminence through it's campaign of subversion and exclusion.
It's not about God, not a conflict between theism and atheism. It's about a cranky Protestant minority vs. everybody else, theists and atheists together.
 
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Gene2memE

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Evolutionary theory is as much a religion as Christianity is... both require faith to understand the unseen.

This is a nonsense. Science is built on observations - if you can't demonstrate something occurred, then it's not accepted. Faith doesn't enter into it - that's just your attempt to pull evolutionary theory to the same evidentiary bar as religious belief.

What is the most galling is this premise that evolution is scientific fact (I know, only theories) that cannot be questioned.

It can be questioned, and continually is. The debate around evolutionary biology has always been, and remains, intense.

However, the basic validity of evolution by natural selection is such an established fact - underpinned by such a weight of concordant lines of evidence - that questioning its underlying validity is on the same level as arguing against a spherical earth, heliocentrism or the existence of black holes.

I find the usurping of evolutionary science in every level of academia over creation science to be a deliberate attack on God.

I find this belief disappointing and unconnected with reality, but unsurprising.

Evolutionary biology is the reigning paradigm to explain the diversity and history of life on earth. It is held as such regardless of religious views. Evolution makes no reference to religious beliefs, indeed it cares not for them. It is no more a "deliberate attack on God", than it is a deliberate attack on the Rainbow Serpent, Ahura Mazda or Mbombo.

Ask Dawkins or Degrasse their opinions of faith and you will find mockery to the extreme.

Ridiculous ideas exist to be ridiculed. Bad ideas exist to be destroyed.

It's an echo chamber mentality that doesn't allow reasoned discussion and even sees any opposition as bigoted, racist, phobic in some way or another, even though these beliefs make up the minority opinion in society... at least for the moment.

Turn around is fair play. Having lived in the US in the early 2000s, I was gobsmacked at how far to the right the country was generally speaking, and how much of an amplifier of fear the right leaning news outlets were.

Just as evolution was at one time the minority position among academics, through the successive push for creationism and God to removed from our schools, it has claimed defacto eminence through it's campaign of subversion and exclusion.

Almost all scientific theories start out as a minority position - the best recent example is plate tectonics. This was a minority position, pushed by a vocal few in the early 1900s. It didn't become scientific consensus until the mid 1960s.

What changed this? Evidence. Strong, well researched evidence from painstaking research involving thousands of geologists over the course of decades. The same can be said for evolution via natural selection - it has been established as a fact through the work of 100,000s of scientists and researchers over the course of the last 160 odd years.

The only thing that will overturn evolution is another naturalistic theory (because science is necessarily limited to methodological naturalism) that is better able to explain what we observe in nature AND better able to make useful predictions.

It wont be replaced by ID or creationism, as these are religious paradigms which attempt to cover themselves in a veneer of scientific credibility. There are triumphs of willful denial and magical thinking over the hard facts of reality.
 
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AnotherAtheist

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USincognito

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How do you know this?

Because I, you know, actually read stuff about evolution and know the evidence supporting it.

How can you state something as a fact that is nothing more than a guess?

Because what I'm stating is a fact.

Why is my guess any less credible than someone else's?

Because you haven't demonstrated an iota of understanding of evolution. Why would anyone take your "guess" seriously after reading your comments?

How do you know it wasn't aliens that developed these different common ancestors?

Because I, you know, actually read stuff about common ancestry and know the evidence supporting it.

Or maybe that God created them all?

God most assuredly could have created the first primordial life on earth. That terrestrial vertebrates evolved from sarcopterygian fish is a fact supported by evidence so we have no need speculate that God created frogs and dogs separately.

Each requires faith so why chose evolution?

Evolution does not require any "faith". The evidence supporting it is available to any who wants to look at it.

You call it childish mockery,

Because it is childish mockery.

I call it what I read in every evolutionary article I've ever read, fantasy.

You're making that up.
 
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Gene2memE

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Around 3,000,000,000,000 years ago, or was it 2,000,000,000,000?

You're out, by nearly an entire order of magnitude... Try more like 375-415 million years ago.


Not a fish, a tetrapod. Tetrapods are descendants of fish - specifically lobe-finned fish known as Sarcopterygii - but are explicitly not fish.

developed mysteriously (can't say miraculously as that's a theological construct and has no place in true science)

Correct. There are still some unsolved questions.

We don't know all of the exact steps that the path of evolution took in tetrapods diverging from fish. However, the fossil record does provide lots of the steps, and we can use theoretical models to fill in some of the gaps. This is always the case, as the fossil record is patchy and incomplete, due to the rarity of fossilisation.

However, researches have some cool new tools to look at the evolutionary development of tetrapods. In 2015, a team took the molecular data consisting from 17 species, as well as other paleontological data, to construct the clearest picture we have of the process of tetrapod development.

all the necessary attributes to be able to venture and thrive onto dry land, made the gigantic leap forward in evolutionary epicness.

Nope, that's not what happened. The evidence shows that adaptations like lungs, internal nostrils, weight bearing limbs, wrists, digits and necks took tens of millions of years, proceeding through dozens of (known) intermediate species before a fully terrestrial creature developed,

One question remains however which I'm sure one of our talented theorists will come up with, now that the newly evolved species has broken free of it's aquatic prison, where will it find love? How will this epicness be carried forward? Will our little hero have to remain celibate for another 3,000,000,000,000 (maybe only 1,000,000,000,000) years for a mate to be produced? I hope he has Netflix, it's going to be a long wait.

You do realise that evolution is concerned about the fixation of traits within POPULATIONS, don't you?

Surely you can't be labouring under the assumption that massive morphological changes occur to single individuals in single generations? I sincerely hope that your facetious spray is a joke, and that you're not really that ignorant of what you're critiquing.
 
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DogmaHunter

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IOW, you really have nothing at all to add to the conversation?

Nothing new anyway.
You've been explained all this before time and again.

You didn't get it the first bazillion times, there's little chance you'll get it after another bazillion times.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Like their lack of proof shows robustness? Please, don't.



Pay attention to your own subject, it's been successful in explaining the world, (that was the post I was replying to) or to be more precise, the creation of the universe.

And before you get into how it does not, look a little deeper, it may not to you but it does to the ones I mentioned...it's been quite successful. and before you get into an argument where you haven't a leg to stand on, you cannot say that it proves nothing to us, it is up to us what is poof and what is not.

Just trying to save a lot of useless typing. :)

If all else fails you prove your evolution and I'll show you how my/the bibles explanation can be proven out, beyond any doubt.

"successful", in what way?
 
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DogmaHunter

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Please enlighten me with a simple cursory outline of how macro evolution is accomplished. If you can cite any real world examples that would be great.

Accumulation of changes over generations.

Much like you end up walking for miles, while moving only one step at a time.
 
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DogmaHunter

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So no actual evidence of such claims.... sounds like a Ron L Hubbard production. How's this one.. maybe it could be published...

Around 3,000,000,000,000 years ago, or was it 2,000,000,000,000? a fish developed mysteriously (can't say miraculously as that's a theological construct and has no place in true science) all the necessary attributes to be able to venture and thrive onto dry land, made the gigantic leap forward in evolutionary epicness. One question remains however which I'm sure one of our talented theorists will come up with, now that the newly evolved species has broken free of it's aquatic prison, where will it find love? How will this epicness be carried forward? Will our little hero have to remain celibate for another 3,000,000,000,000 (maybe only 1,000,000,000,000) years for a mate to be produced? I hope he has Netflix, it's going to be a long wait.
If you consider this an accurate description of evolutionary history, then no wonder you don't accept it.

Not accepting such nonsense, is actually a rational position.

Now, go read up what evolution really is about.
 
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DogmaHunter

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In the simplest of definitions.. how does a frog become a dog?

If a frog would become a dog, then evolution theory would be debunked.

Is it just a hairy toad that someone decided to leash up and take for a walk?

My 7-year old nephew, would beat you in biology tests.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Evolutionary theory is as much a religion as Christianity is... both require faith to understand the unseen. What is the most galling is this premise that evolution is scientific fact (I know, only theories) that cannot be questioned. I find the usurping of evolutionary science in every level of academia over creation science to be a deliberate attack on God. Ask Dawkins or Degrasse their opinions of faith and you will find mockery to the extreme. It reminds me of the newest phenomenon happening in our "higher" centers of learning at the moment... namely inclusion and acceptance of anything except what they don't agree with... liberalism without borders. It's an echo chamber mentality that doesn't allow reasoned discussion and even sees any opposition as bigoted, racist, phobic in some way or another, even though these beliefs make up the minority opinion in society... at least for the moment. Just as evolution was at one time the minority position among academics, through the successive push for creationism and God to removed from our schools, it has claimed defacto eminence through it's campaign of subversion and exclusion.

That's a nice anti-science rant with some ad hominim sauce on top.
But you didn't answer his question.

He asked you what you think is the biggest weakness of evolution theory. "god", "dawkins", degrasse", etc... should not be mentioned in your answer.
 
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USincognito

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Not a fish, a tetrapod. Tetrapods are descendants of fish - specifically lobe-finned fish known as Sarcopterygii - but are explicitly not fish.

One of the more frustrating aspects of the Crevo debate is the obstinate clinging to ignorance and misperceptions on the part of Creationists. If I were to tell a science advocate that "humans are fish, we're just not 'fish'" they would understand that I mean humans are sarcopterygians, but we're not trout or tuna. If I were to tell that to a Creationist their head would explode.
 
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Jimmy D

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I love that cop out, and you didn't think anyone would notice? :) You don't care to debate that because you cannot prove this....

Why should he? The scientific community has accepted it as a fact for over a century. Empirical evidence is provided from genetics, the fossil record, embryology, biogeography, microbiology, zooology, etc etc, it's an applied science for Pete's sake.

I'm gonna say that the Earth is spherical, do I have to debate that to?

Tell you what, how about you actually make a worthwhile contribution to the thread and provide some evidence for whatever mechanism you think explains the diversity of life on Earth.
 
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Abraxos

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My thoughts on creation and evolution,
ClQ1fMc.jpg
 
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