Your Thoughts on Creation & Evolution

[Bungle_Bear]

I know but Christians who have been born again Spiritually by God the Trinity can understand the difference between God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Their speaks of the Trinity and His speaks of the kind which Jesus made from the dust of the ground. God also tells us that those who have NOT been born again Spiritually cannot understand that which is Spiritual. Have you been born again Spiritually?

That's all completely irrelevant. There is no his/their/its, so it doesn't matter what claims you make about understanding those words.

In simple English - if the word does not exist, you cannot use it in an argument.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Could it be that you are trying to understand that which is concealed from you?

Yes. I'm trying to understand why you evade, dissemble and resort to dishonesty so much.

Proverbs 12:22 Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are his delight.

Can you, hand on heart, say that you are dealing truly? Can you honestly say that nobody has shown error in your claims?

 

[Kylie]

It didn't change those prehistoric people (sons of God) into Humans because ONLY the descendants of Adam are Humans.

Please show a scientific source that shows that those prehistoric people were sons of God, and that there was an actual Adam.

And not Y-Chromosomal Adam, either. I'm talking about the Adam described in your Bible.

 

[Kylie]

NOTHING which had it's origin in WATER can evolve Human intelligence (the Ability to know both good and evil). ONLY God and Adam's descendants have this ability. Genesis 3:22

Citation required.

Bible passages are not citations.

 

[Kylie]

Wonderful. Pick any one of these and refute it:

I've already done so.

1. Genesis 1:21 shows that every living creature that moveth was made from water on the 5th Day. Science recently discovered the same. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/26/s...-ancestor.html Jul 25, 2016

Science knew life came from the water long before 2016, so your claim here is false. The Bible even disagrees with you, because according to Genesis, Cattle and creeping things came from the Earth. You are forced to go through a whole bunch of stretched interpretations of the Bible to justify your position, and you have been unable to justify your reasoning.

2. Genesis 2:4 shows that the big bang was on the 3rd Day and Genesis 1:16 shows that it was the 4th Day before the first Stars were made. Science recently discovered the same. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...-born-big-bang Feb 28, 2018 - The first stars lit the cosmos by 180 million years after the Big Bang,

The earth is not older than the Big Bang.

3. Chromosone 2 fusion shows that Adam, the first Human was first made, long before plants, herbs, rain, trees, or any prehistoric person. Genesis 2:4-7

Chromosome 2 fusion shows no such thing. You do not understand the science that you are talking about.

And this is not the first time I have told you this. I have to wonder why you insist on constantly using points that have been refuted before - particularly when you KNOW they are refuted.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Wonderful. Pick any one of these and refute it:

1. Genesis 1:21 shows that every living creature that moveth was made from water on the 5th Day. Science recently discovered the same. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/26/s...-ancestor.html Jul 25, 2016

Please show how Genesis 1:24 agrees with this finding.

Let me help you out - the bible disagrees with you. Was this another error of the translators?

You have been refuted.

 

[the iconoclast]

Clarification: do you want arguments specifically about god's existence, or any creationist argument in general?

Hey hey friend

Surprise me. Hit me with your best shot?

Are you asking about YEC or just someone who believes god created?

Lets move away from yec or oec. Lets investigate the notion that the God of Abraham created the Universe as confirmed with scripture.

Speedwell answered how I would have.

So do you believe theistic evolution is compatible with the theory of evolution? Why or how could it be possible?

I never said it did.

It is true you never said it did. I will reword my question to hightlight the quality of being worthy of attention. Why does what i believe worthy of your attention. You could have just backed out of this conversation but you seem very motivated. So why does what i believe matter to you?

Because you called atheists elitists, so it clearly bugs you.

Ahhh... so you too read my humble posts. Ill turn a card over. The reason why it matters to me what you believe in is because im told to witness the Word about the saving grace of Jesus Christ to you.

My experience does not relate to a frenzied church gathering, it related to me opening my heart to the Lord and having 100% faith He is Who He says He is.

Im a changed person. This is my motivation which is effected by a conviction in my heart.

I love you and even though we dont know each other, i dont want you to perish.

What you think?

I have always been open-minded. I was once an evolution bashing, fundamental evangelical myself.

What changed you? What made you doubt Jesus?

Why? You'll just scoff and say, "nah, couldn't be that. It was real."

I may disagree with you but that should not make you lose confidence in giving me an explanation as to a theory?

But whatever....people's minds can do amazing things when emotions are strong, and it has nothing to do with our mental health; it can happen to anyone.

What are some amazing things our minds can do that relate to my testimony?

Why were the ladies laying hands and praying with you?

Were you going through something particularly rough at the time?

Nah, everything was cool. After or during a church service it can be a custom for Pentecostal churches to offer such a thing. The 2 ladies offered me and i took them up. Ive been going to church since i was old enough to be taken, so it was not uncommon for me to have a Spirit Filled person lay hands and pray.

Some cause for emotions to be heightened?

Actually they took me some where private and sat with me. I was sitting upright in a chair, they started praying and i started praying then 'BANG' i was in a vision.

Sometimes it doesn't even take much. You mentioned that you are Pentecostal. When I was in the Army, a friend of mine invited me to his Pentecostal church service. I was a conservative Baptist at the time, and believed that spiritual gifts like speaking in tongues, prophecy, and some others were no longer given in modern times. And honestly, the service was a bit uncomfortable for me. But the energy in there was palpable. And even though I didn't believe speaking in tongues was still a thing, I couldn't help but want to be a part of it.

Thank you sir for your service to your country. I have a new form of respect for you sir - please dont take this the wrong way but God bless you for your sacrifice.

Baptists are good people. Please excuse me i thought you said you were a fundamental evangelical?

Most Evangelicals, charismatics and Pentecostal usually have a strong faith as they - usually - have an experience linked to their faith.

Being an ex Christian, surely you must be aware of 100% faith to get a result? Could your doubt be a factor getting a result?

To feel what they were feeling. But you see, everyone there felt the same, had the desire to feel lifted. And it builds. And builds. And you start to convince yourself that something is happening. And the leaders know what to say and sing to egg it on...not in a deceptive way, because they are fully convinced themselves.

You have just described a worship service. So dont beat around the bush my dear, what are you saying? What word do you use to call a situation like this?

Why would you disagree that the Spirit is present? How do refute rhe Holy Spirit and by what criteria?

And before you ask, no, I did not speak in tongues at the service.

All good. I dont speak in tongues either - unusual for a pentecost - i was given a different gift or gifts. Ask me.

There are more gifts from the Spirit than speaking in tongues.

From a Christian position, is doubt effective for Christian faith?

And that euphoria is not just for spiritual/religious things, either.

My dear a feeling or state of intense excitement and happiness can happen anywhere and it is not necessarily bound by a frenzied mob. I play guitar, i get euphoria when i just executed a mad lick - i rock dude!!!

When you were a Christian did you ever give your heart to God, 100% with all your heart. None of this 'God maybe your there are maybe not' or 'this may not work but ill give it a try'.

Were you every 100% certain and trusting that Jesus is Who He says He is - please be honest?

What did you do to commit to Jesus, what covenant did you make?

One can become so emotionally invested in their favorite sports team that they become euphoric, PARTICULARLY when others are doing it with you. Or due to pride when your child is accomplishing something special.

Please consider my experience was private and only with 2 people. What do you think?

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Cause I know you aren't buying what I'm saying, and I've already told you that second hand testimonies are not very convincing.

I need more from you. Why do you disagree? Surely you have more ramifications to support your belief?

Now you know it was private - no lie - If it is not the reason i think it is, what have you got?

I feel that it is not the type of claim toward which I am incredulous.

My testimony; You feel that it is not the type of claim toward which you are incredulous.

What?

No

Why do you not?

No.

Why do you not?

I don't believe there was anything supernatural about my own past emotional states, why would I believe yours. ;-)

You do not believe me because you dont believe there was anything supernatural about your past emotional states. What past emotional states do you refer to?

What criteria do you refute the supernatural?

You always do this. You know that is not what I meant, but you twist the meaning hoping for a "gotcha" moment. Try taking my comments at face value, and have a normal conversation, rather than a debate you are trying to win.

Please excuse me my dear this is not my attention. Im trying to understand where you are coming from.

You say "They can't all be right". This is a statement with nothing to back it up. So your answer looks like this - because there are 1000s of belief system therefore Christianty cannot be true.

Please excuse me but give me more? Have you thought this through? Are you ready to be challenged?

Why is that a bad thing?

Somethings are able to be firmly relied on to happen or be the case. Death is one.

What you think?

Of course. I've learned that it is far less humiliating to admit you are wrong....and everyone is sometimes...when you keep in mind that, hey, I might be wrong, so let's see what I can learn.

Is evolution a certainty?

That depends on which version you're talking about.

The God of Abraham as mentioned in scripture. There is no other version im refering to or else i would say otherwise.

Sp to repeat the question, How certain are you that the Christian God does not exist?

A lot of things are involved, but at it's root, I'd say it's philosophical; more specifically, logic.

What philosophy confirms your rejection of scripture? Which men do you claim as your source of authority?

Ironic, since you still have not answered the first questions I asked in this discussion, except to say that you don't care. Not to mention the fact that you never answered my last post in our last discussion as you said you would.

What more do you want? How should i answer?

You always have. Why stop now?

I disagree.

Yes, you are very adept at changing the question asked of you to a question you would rather answer instead. Pretty easy to get where you want when you do that.

How so? How have i done what younaccuse me of?

Philosophy/logic

Please provide your examples. What philosophy and what logic?

I never said I was certain there is no god.

Then why did you leave the Christian faith?

Cheers

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your mean the brain washing I suffered through in School? They fooled me for a while, while I was a small child, but I grew up. Want to try to get me to place my FAITH in the idea that i'm nothing but an evolved Ape? That I'm going to live for a few years and then die and rot just like any other animal? Forget it unless you can explain the procedure of placing the highest intelligence in the Universe, into Apes?

No, education is not brain washing. The evidence that supports evolution can be confirmed. If brainwashing was the case this could not be done.

It appears that you are going off the deep end in trying to explain why you would not let yourself learn. You only have yourself to blame. Start with the basics and move on from there. I can assure you that you do not understand the basics.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The SAME applies to god denying Atheists, too.

Atheists do not "deny God" since no reliable evidence has been given for God. Once again you are not reasoning rationally.

 

[the iconoclast]

Hey @46AND2 and i hope you are having a wonderful day.

I realise that some of the info i request may not arrive the way i was hoping, so ive been checking out your history to see what answers i could find - call it truth seeking, right?

So ive decided to put some of your quotes together to make a summary of your belief system and to get the answers i suspect you may not divulge - possibly due to 15 years of conversing with 'us' and doing too much explaining.

I hope i remain true to the context of what you say.

"It is totally fine to quote a portion of someone's statement, as long as the usage of that statement is true to the overall context of the passage, and/or the position of the person being quoted

I was raised in a YEC Baptist home. Mostly I come to these boards because I am a truth seeker

My atheism is due to a combination of philosophy, logic, anthropology, history, psychology and sociology (I think those cover most, if not all, of my reasons).

My loss of faith had much more to do with philosophy (logic, specifically) and history. Philosophy is not my strong point, to be sure, the philosophies are what is important here. I spent more than a decade fighting to retain my faith.

For me, no matter how you looked at God's attributes, at some point, you have to defy logic to believe. I was a "theistic evolutionist" for most of my adult life after being raised YEC (although it's been nearly as long since I accepted my inability to believe)

As a former Christian, it pained me greatly when I found such deliberate misleading among apologists. I've seen them take quotes out of context to make it look like scientists are saying something they are not; sometimes even the exact opposite of what the scientist is saying in the full text. IOW, quote mining.

I was a "theistic evolutionist" long before I accepted my atheism. I have no problem with people who find harmony in the two.

My position is that belief is an involuntary conviction based on information and stimuli to which you have been exposed. And much of what you explained about something being a choice of belief, is no more than a reaction to additional information.

My argument was that according to the scientific method, nothing can be absolutely proven; that this is what makes the scientific method work. Nothing is immune from skepticism, or we would not be open to consider any and all possibilities, and let future evidence guide us to a conclusion. I also mentioned that you cannot prove the absence of something; at least not without accounting for everything else in a given space.

One can have zero belief in something, and yet not rule out the possibility of being proven wrong in the future. Indeed, one can believe that it is irrational to accept something, and still maintain skepticism, citing unknown future observations

While it is true that many atheists here conflate the existence of God with the existence of, say, Leprechauns, they also would hasten to add that we cannot disprove the existence of Leprechauns, either.

But I don't think their arguments are so much "evolution, therefore no god" but rather "natural explanation, therefore, why god?"

Since we cannot disprove a supernatural entity, I cannot know that there are no gods. I don't hold the position that we do.

There is no majority/expert/consensus opinion on god.

So when I started to lose my faith, it wasn't hell I feared--because my belief in hell waned along with my faith in god--it was the nothingness that I now expect after death. It's hard for me to describe, but the ceasing of consciousness freaks the hell out of me. Pardon the pun. And so I pleaded with god for a long time to renew my faith, and sought answers to my doubts through Bible, prayer, and counsel...all for more than a decade, and even kind of continues now, a decade later.

And yes, I still have that fear of death. But I don't fear hell. I'm sure many of the Christians here will disagree with me, but if god exists, and is as loving a father as they say, I don't think he'd punish me for all eternity after earnestly seeking him out and simply being incapable of believing.

Because belief is not a choice. It's an involuntary conviction based on information and stimuli to which you have been exposed--and the more of that I gain, the more profound my disbelief becomes, despite my continuous attempt at the opposite. I look at my lack of faith in the same way a scientist looks at a hypothesis. By testing it in ways that could falsify it."

Dont worry about answering my last post, this effectively skips weeks of back and forth.

Lets start fresh and and lets look at the summary i made.

What do you think about this summary and do you accept its validity?

Cheers

 

[46AND2]

Hey @46AND2 and i hope you are having a wonderful day.

I realise that some of the info i request may not arrive the way i was hoping, so ive been checking out your history to see what answers i could find - call it truth seeking, right?

So ive decided to put some of your quotes together to make a summary of your belief system and to get the answers i suspect you may not divulge - possibly due to 15 years of conversing with 'us' and doing too much explaining.

I hope i remain true to the context of what you say.

"It is totally fine to quote a portion of someone's statement, as long as the usage of that statement is true to the overall context of the passage, and/or the position of the person being quoted

I was raised in a YEC Baptist home. Mostly I come to these boards because I am a truth seeker

My atheism is due to a combination of philosophy, logic, anthropology, history, psychology and sociology (I think those cover most, if not all, of my reasons).

My loss of faith had much more to do with philosophy (logic, specifically) and history. Philosophy is not my strong point, to be sure, the philosophies are what is important here. I spent more than a decade fighting to retain my faith.

For me, no matter how you looked at God's attributes, at some point, you have to defy logic to believe. I was a "theistic evolutionist" for most of my adult life after being raised YEC (although it's been nearly as long since I accepted my inability to believe)

As a former Christian, it pained me greatly when I found such deliberate misleading among apologists. I've seen them take quotes out of context to make it look like scientists are saying something they are not; sometimes even the exact opposite of what the scientist is saying in the full text. IOW, quote mining.

I was a "theistic evolutionist" long before I accepted my atheism. I have no problem with people who find harmony in the two.

My position is that belief is an involuntary conviction based on information and stimuli to which you have been exposed. And much of what you explained about something being a choice of belief, is no more than a reaction to additional information.

My argument was that according to the scientific method, nothing can be absolutely proven; that this is what makes the scientific method work. Nothing is immune from skepticism, or we would not be open to consider any and all possibilities, and let future evidence guide us to a conclusion. I also mentioned that you cannot prove the absence of something; at least not without accounting for everything else in a given space.

One can have zero belief in something, and yet not rule out the possibility of being proven wrong in the future. Indeed, one can believe that it is irrational to accept something, and still maintain skepticism, citing unknown future observations

While it is true that many atheists here conflate the existence of God with the existence of, say, Leprechauns, they also would hasten to add that we cannot disprove the existence of Leprechauns, either.

But I don't think their arguments are so much "evolution, therefore no god" but rather "natural explanation, therefore, why god?"

Since we cannot disprove a supernatural entity, I cannot know that there are no gods. I don't hold the position that we do.

There is no majority/expert/consensus opinion on god.

So when I started to lose my faith, it wasn't hell I feared--because my belief in hell waned along with my faith in god--it was the nothingness that I now expect after death. It's hard for me to describe, but the ceasing of consciousness freaks the hell out of me. Pardon the pun. And so I pleaded with god for a long time to renew my faith, and sought answers to my doubts through Bible, prayer, and counsel...all for more than a decade, and even kind of continues now, a decade later.

And yes, I still have that fear of death. But I don't fear hell. I'm sure many of the Christians here will disagree with me, but if god exists, and is as loving a father as they say, I don't think he'd punish me for all eternity after earnestly seeking him out and simply being incapable of believing.

Because belief is not a choice. It's an involuntary conviction based on information and stimuli to which you have been exposed--and the more of that I gain, the more profound my disbelief becomes, despite my continuous attempt at the opposite. I look at my lack of faith in the same way a scientist looks at a hypothesis. By testing it in ways that could falsify it."

Dont worry about answering my last post, this effectively skips weeks of back and forth.

Lets start fresh and and lets look at the summary i made.

What do you think about this summary and do you accept its validity?

Cheers

You must have dug pretty far back for a lot of that, but I can't, at first glance, see anything which differs too much from my current position.

 

[Aman777]

Which further contradicts the claim that science lines up with the Bible re: the first life (not to mention the first humans). Which further demonstrates that your claims of agreement of your interpretation of the Bible and science, history, genetics, etc, is false.

Now you're going to claim an alternative Biblical interpretation based on the wholly unsupported claim that the first humans were made on some alternative world.

And round 'n round we go.

Do you have anything different or interesting to say? Or are you going to keep going in circles?

Every living creature that moveth, EXCEPT Humans was made on the 5th Day. Genesis 1:21 Adam, the first Human was made the 3rd Day. Genesis 2:7 by Jesus. Humans were "created" eternally by God the Trinity on the 6th Day. Genesis 1:27

This shows that Humans were the FIRST creatures made. Adam was not made of flesh but was made like Christians will be made in Heaven, in the likeness of God. After Adam sinned, he became a creature of flesh. No confusion, NO circles. Amen?

 

[Aman777]

That's all completely irrelevant. There is no his/their/its, so it doesn't matter what claims you make about understanding those words.

In simple English - if the word does not exist, you cannot use it in an argument.

Thanks for posting that you CANNOT understand Scripture. It confirms what God told us in Scripture.

 

[Aman777]

Yes. I'm trying to understand why you evade, dissemble and resort to dishonesty so much.

Proverbs 12:22 Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are his delight.

Can you, hand on heart, say that you are dealing truly? Can you honestly say that nobody has shown error in your claims?

Absolutely. Refusing to accept God's Truth is the problem.

 

[Aman777]

Please show a scientific source that shows that those prehistoric people were sons of God, and that there was an actual Adam.

Science has not yet discovered this. Here is the history of the sons of God (prehistoric people) and Humans (descendants of Adam) on the 1st Earth AND the present Earth.

My words are in black since God tells us that atheists cannot understand.

Gen 6:4 There were (intellectual) giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, (on the present Earth) when the sons of God (prehistoric man) came in unto the daughters of men, (Adam) and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

 

[Aman777]

Bible passages are not citations.

Since Biblical citations change NOT and the mortal findings of Science are totally changeable, I prefer God's Holy Word to any of the rants of mortal men. Amen?

 

[Aman777]

I've already done so.

In your dreams. Post proof IF you can.

Science knew life came from the water long before 2016, so your claim here is false. The Bible even disagrees with you, because according to Genesis, Cattle and creeping things came from the Earth. You are forced to go through a whole bunch of stretched interpretations of the Bible to justify your position, and you have been unable to justify your reasoning.

Show us that Science knew that ALL living creatures came from water more than 3k years ago. You cannot. Citation necessary and I don't accept changeable Theories.

The earth is not older than the Big Bang.

Adam's Earth was before it sank into Lake Van, Turkey, 11k years ago. I forgot that today's Science has yet to discover this Truth. Adam's Earth was made at the beginning of the 3rd Day and the Big Bang of our Cosmos was at the end of the 3rd Day since it was only 180 million years until the first Stars lit up on the next Day. FYI. Each of God's Days is some 4.5 Billion years in length.

Chromosome 2 fusion shows no such thing. You do not understand the science that you are talking about.

And this is not the first time I have told you this. I have to wonder why you insist on constantly using points that have been refuted before - particularly when you KNOW they are refuted.

It's because you have NEVER refuted (proven wrong) ANY of my posts. I'm beginning to think that Aussies are not taught to understand English. Amen?

 

[Aman777]

Please show how Genesis 1:24 agrees with this finding.

Let me help you out - the bible disagrees with you. Was this another error of the translators?

You have been refuted.

When Pigs fly. God created some of the creatures which Jesus made with His Own Hands. Birds are a good example. Jesus made them on the 6th Day Genesis 2:19 but these common ancestors did NOT appear physically on planet Earth until Noah brought them here. God knows the end from the beginning and made birds eternally BEFORE they appeared physically only thousands of years ago, long AFTER the beginning of the 6th Day on Adam's Earth.

 

[Aman777]

No, education is not brain washing. The evidence that supports evolution can be confirmed. If brainwashing was the case this could not be done.

This usually causes those who believe in evolution to run away. Please don't run but stay and confirm to us HOW mindless Nature, random mutations and natural selection inserted the highest intelligence in Creation into the Human brain. Tell us the process BEFORE I bring Occam's Razor down on your ideas.

 

[Aman777]

Atheists do not "deny God" since no reliable evidence has been given for God. Once again you are not reasoning rationally.

False, since I have posted many agreements of Science, History, Genetics, and Math with Genesis and NO ONE can refute (prove them wrong) in ANY way. Would you like to try one? I'll post 3 so that you can pick just one to refute. Amen?