Your Probation is CLOSED -- what next?

[HoneyDew]

Now, I am not sure how many Adventists grew up hearing this. I know I hear it regularly from my mother and others. A family member recently died and my mother said to me, "You know he had stopped going to church ... I bet he never knew his probation was closed."
Apparently, he had stopped worshipping with the congregation in his town, and this was cause for alarm. My mother was focused on him not going to church for the past how many months. Her panicked reaction prompts me to ask this question: where did the belief in probations being closed come from? I am thinking it stems directly from the Investigative Judgement idea.
As a child, I lived in total fear that at any moment my probation would be closed so I watched to see how my behavior was. If I was pretty good for a fairly long period of time, I would think that perhaps I was "sealed" in the Book of Life. I had many moments of stark terror when I did not feel "righteous" enough.
Anyone else went through this?

 

[woobadooba]

Now, I am not sure how many Adventists grew up hearing this. I know I hear it regularly from my mother and others. A family member recently died and my mother said to me, "You know he had stopped going to church ... I bet he never knew his probation was closed."
Apparently, he had stopped worshipping with the congregation in his town, and this was cause for alarm. My mother was focused on him not going to church for the past how many months. Her panicked reaction prompts me to ask this question: where did the belief in probations being closed come from? I am thinking it stems directly from the Investigative Judgement idea.
As a child, I lived in total fear that at any moment my probation would be closed so I watched to see how my behavior was. If I was pretty good for a fairly long period of time, I would think that perhaps I was "sealed" in the Book of Life. I had many moments of stark terror when I did not feel "righteous" enough.
Anyone else went through this?

It does place limitations on God's ability to save sinners doesn't it?

I think about the thief on the cross, who at the last moment was assured by Jesus that he would be saved.

Why can't God do that again? In other words, why can't God do that even before He pours out His wrath on the world?

You see, man basis his judgments on the actions of others, but God judges the intentions of the heart! Jesus knew the heart of the thief, that it was sincere!

The thief didn't have to prove something to God by going out saving souls for Christ, or by preaching the third angel's message, which leads me to something else, some seem to think that if we aren't teaching the third angel's message, that we are lost!

Now, the third angel's message is certainly wonderful, and ought to be tought, but we are not saved because we know the third angel's message! We are saved because we know Jesus Christ!

In other words, what I am saying is that there will be people in heaven who didn't even know the total truth. And we shouldn't tell others that because they don't know it all, or agree with us on every point, that their souls are hopelessly lost.

We have no right to make such judgments!

God will judge us according to the intentions of our hearts!

 

[Cliff2]

It does place limitations on God's ability to save sinners doesn't it?

I think about the thief on the cross, who at the last moment was assured by Jesus that he would be saved.

Why can't God do that again? In other words, why can't God do that even before He pours out His wrath on the world?

You see, man basis his judgments on the actions of others, but God judges the intentions of the heart! Jesus knew the heart of the thief, that it was sincere!

The thief didn't have to prove something to God by going out saving souls for Christ, or by preaching the third angel's message, which leads me to something else, some seem to think that if we aren't teaching the third angel's message, that we are lost!

Now, the third angel's message is certainly wonderful, and ought to be tought, but we are not saved because we know the third angel's message! We are saved because we know Jesus Christ!

In other words, what I am saying is that there will be people in heaven who didn't even know the total truth. And we shouldn't tell others that because they don't know it all, or agree with us on every point, that their souls are hopelessly lost.

We have no right to make such judgments!

God will judge us according to the intentions of our hearts!

Some good points have been made but not all are Biblical.

Perhaps popular but just not in the Bible.

If we think we are not going to be judged by our works then we have another think coming.

We are saved by grace and grace alone but our works show where we are in relationship to the grace that God has given. We can never earn salvation by what we do.

The sheep and the goats are separated by what they did. What they did shows where their heart is.

Our intentions in the judgement will not be good enough, we may have wanted to follow the Lord but never made the total choice. Wanting to follow will not be good enough.

Jesus does know our hearts and He also know our actions.

 

[woobadooba]

Some good points have been made but not all are Biblical.

Perhaps popular but just not in the Bible.

If we think we are not going to be judged by our works then we have another think coming.

We are saved by grace and grace alone but our works show where we are in relationship to the grace that God has given. We can never earn salvation by what we do.

The sheep and the goats are separated by what they did. What they did shows where their heart is.

Our intentions in the judgement will not be good enough, we may have wanted to follow the Lord but never made the total choice. Wanting to follow will not be good enough.

Jesus does know our hearts and He also know our actions.

Interestingly, I agree with you, yet, you say some of my points are not Biblical?

How can we both agree with each other and be Biblical and unbiblical about which we agree upon?

It is always best to ask people what they mean before making such claims, so as to say that what they are saying isn't Biblical.

What do I mean by intentions? Let's take a look at David for a moment. God knew that David would do evil in committing the sin of adultery, among other things of course. Yet, He called David a man after His own heart. That is interesting isn't it?

You see, David had a deep an profound love for God, and although his actions weren't perfect, before God's eyes his heart was perfect!

Thus David had good intentions, not in that he thought to follow God but never really brought such intentions to fruition. He had good intentions in that he sought to give God his best!

You see, when I speak of good intentions, I am referring to people who with the light that God gives them, make the best of it.

They may not know the total truth, but they are totally devoted to what they know to be true. Hence, they have good intentions!

By the way, my message is anything but popular! I am a Tozer kind of guy!

 

[Windmill]

Totally! For awhile there, I was on my knee's, sobbing to God, that if I was wrong and if catholicisim was right, please don't send me to hell! God, that place sounds horrible! I'm sorry God I sin! I'm sorry I don't love you enough! I'm trying lord but as I try and though I don't love you enough yet, please let me live!

Well... I try to focus less now on heaven/hell 'cos that makes me think more about loving God for salvation rather than just out of free will... to get that... I'm still reaching, I'm trying to not have a selfish love

Okay, sometimes, I'm still scared. I don't think I love God enough. But I'm trying From learning from the experience of others. And, infact, just general learning about stuff like the bible just makes me... excited =D to be a christian, and proud, and sad for those who arn't =(

 

[tall73]

These teachings were largely popularized during the 1930's and on or so by a theologian named M.L. Andreasan. His books dealt a lot with the sanctuary, end time generation, etc.

His followers went beyond his teaching in many respects, and the most exaggerated version would up looking something like the following:

1. atonement was not finished at the cross. It will be finished when the last day generation of saints lives perfectly for a while, showing God's character.

2. We must learn to live without an intercessor for sin after the close of probation

3. The stronger you get, the less you need God's help...no joke, I have even heard of some who drew a chart that showed an inversely proportional relationship.

This kind of teaching obviously makes folks go insane! And it should be noted that the Bible is quite clear about the intercessor part:

HEB 7:23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Now some have noted that the intercession might be for power to overcome sin, rather than forgiveness, I guess folks can debate that part, but I would say that the idea that the better we get the less we need God is quite untrue. It goes completely against the biblical practice of "living by the Spirit." It is by the Spirit that true obedience comes.


And again, these are the exaggerated claims of some. There is truth to the idea that at some point your probation closes. Death certainly is a close of probation. Once you make your final decision to turn away from God, and your conscience is seared you have closed probation. So that is a biblical notion, if not a biblical phrase.

And it is true that God plan's for His people to be a witness for Him in the last days by their character. But the idea that we can become good enough to be without God is just not biblical.


A good thing to read when thinking over such issues is EGW's description of Jacob's time of trouble in Patriarchs and Prophets (pretty sure it was there lol). Jacob was about to meet his brother who he had wronged. He wrestled with God all night. He was overcome with remorse. We will be too over our sin. But our only hope is in Him. We won't let Him go until He blesses us. It will be the same way in the end times. Our only hope is in forgiveness.

 

[StormyOne]

Right Tall.... there is never a time where we don't need a Savior... and if we were able to live without sin (without the indwelling of the Spirit) Jesus would not have had to come, live and die...

 

[HoneyDew]

And again, these are the exaggerated claims of some. There is truth to the idea that at some point your probation closes. Death certainly is a close of probation. Once you make your final decision to turn away from God, and your conscience is seared you have closed probation. So that is a biblical notion, if not a biblical phrase.

Okay, I should have added this part to my OP: my mom thinks that at any given time a person's probation can be closed, once their name comes up in Heaven. This is a belief also shared by my grandmother and most Adventists of those two generations that I come in contact with.
Are they still preaching this? I have not heard any sermons with the IJ or probation closing even when you are not dead. Has anyone heard any of these sermons lately?

 

[tall73]

Okay, I should have added this part to my OP: my mom thinks that at any given time a person's probation can be closed, once their name comes up in Heaven. This is a belief also shared by my grandmother and most Adventists of those two generations that I come in contact with.
Are they still preaching this? I have not heard any sermons with the IJ or probation closing even when you are not dead. Has anyone heard any of these sermons lately?

Some still preach it. Yes, it is based on the interpretation of the texts concerning the investigative judgement.

The idea being that if Jesus is going over the books, at some point he must run out of dead people, come to the living, and review their case. Once He reviews yours your out of luck.

So the idea for next generation theology folks is to get to the point where you are fine before that happens.

Now of course there is the close of probation on a MASSIVE scale at Jesus coming!

And we have often taught that when the seven last plagues fall they are no longer redemptive judgements, but punitive. Ie...Jesus is coming quite quickly, and it really is time to wrap things up.

So in other words, some of it is true, some of it is an exageration or misinterpretation of the view. It is not usually preached in quite the way it used to be, which was to scare the snot out of folks!

But let me share a key text.

2PE 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this `coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2PE 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
2PE 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

Does it sound from this text that God is trying to catch anyone off guard? He will judge the world. He has reserved the day. but He is patient, not wanting any to perish. In fact, Matthew says that The message will go to every tribe, nation, language, then the end will come.

So I think the real issue is not that everyone will not have a chance. God is delaying to give mercy. If He really wanted some to perish, or be caught unaware He could have done that long ago. Part of our emphasis on the "loud cry" is that it will call people in the last days to decision. My personal view is that everyone in the last days will have done one of the following:

a. decided to follow Jesus, and receive God's seal
b. decided not to, and receive the mark of the beast
c. Decided not to ignore it...and receive the mark by default.

This seems consistent with the text to my mind.

 

[payattention]

Does it sound from this text that God is trying to catch anyone off guard? He will judge the world. He has reserved the day. but He is patient, not wanting any to perish. In fact, Matthew says that The message will go to every tribe, nation, language, then the end will come.

So I think the real issue is not that everyone will not have a chance. God is delaying to give mercy. If He really wanted some to perish, or be caught unaware He could have done that long ago. Part of our emphasis on the "loud cry" is that it will call people in the last days to decision. My personal view is that everyone in the last days will have done one of the following:

a. decided to follow Jesus, and receive God's seal
b. decided not to, and receive the mark of the beast
c. Decided not to ignore it...and receive the mark by default.

This seems consistent with the text to my mind.

Ultimately, this may require its own thread but I need you to clarify the third option. I think you meant to say "Decide to ignore it." I do not agree that the mark is the default position. Jesus came to save us from sin, not to persuade us out of sin. This means that from the very beginning the entire human race has always belonged to him by default. The default position is one of safety. We have to choose to receive the mark of the beast.

 

[tall73]

Decided to ignore it, quite true.

Actually I wouldn't say it is the default position. I think that the default position is that we

a. are lost
b. must receive God's provision.



I suppose the difference would be what would happen if we ignore it. That gets into a whole discusion about those who live in remote areas etc. I am willing to get into it, but for now will post just one scripture that seems to favor the fact that by default we are not safe. However, to summarize my view without at this point substantiating it, I think that God does give everyone a chance...they just have to accept. So the point is they can ignore the chance, accept it, or refuse.

JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

 

[payattention]

Decided to ignore it, quite true.

Actually I wouldn't say it is the default position. I think that the default position is that we

a. are lost
b. must receive God's provision.

If this is the default position then all infants are born lost and cannot be in the kingdom. This would mean that EGW is in error on that point. It would also mean that the Bible is wrong when it claims that Eve was deceived.

 

[Cliff2]

Totally! For awhile there, I was on my knee's, sobbing to God, that if I was wrong and if catholicisim was right, please don't send me to hell! God, that place sounds horrible! I'm sorry God I sin! I'm sorry I don't love you enough! I'm trying lord but as I try and though I don't love you enough yet, please let me live!

Well... I try to focus less now on heaven/hell 'cos that makes me think more about loving God for salvation rather than just out of free will... to get that... I'm still reaching, I'm trying to not have a selfish love

Okay, sometimes, I'm still scared. I don't think I love God enough. But I'm trying From learning from the experience of others. And, infact, just general learning about stuff like the bible just makes me... excited =D to be a christian, and proud, and sad for those who arn't =(

May the Lord bless you as you seek to know His will for you.

 

[tall73]

If this is the default position then all infants are born lost and cannot be in the kingdom. This would mean that EGW is in error on that point. It would also mean that the Bible is wrong when it claims that Eve was deceived.

a. I don't see the implication on the Eve thing, sorry, please explain.

b. I should clarify, and as I mentioned it was incomplete, I believe God gives everyone a chance if they can understand it. Babies can't. I don't think He holds them accountable for that. Again, this gets into an age of accountability debate.

But if God does give to those capable of reasoning opportunities and they turn away from them, they have in effect turned Him away.

If you don't like the text, please critique it.

 

[StormyOne]

a. I don't see the implication on the Eve thing, sorry, please explain.

b. I should clarify, and as I mentioned it was incomplete, I believe God gives everyone a chance if they can understand it. Babies can't. I don't think He holds them accountable for that. Again, this gets into an age of accountability debate.

But if God does give to those capable of reasoning opportunities and they turn away from them, they have in effect turned Him away.

If you don't like the text, please critique it.

Correct everyone gets a chance... the default choice is not hell but heaven.... what do you think?

 

[tall73]

The default condition is lost...but since everyone gets a chance, it still demands turning away. The point is, once you sin, you are lost and in need of a Savior. There is no way around that. But God extends to each the chance for forgiveness.
I will analyze this in light of Romans 1-3 in a bit ..if I get a chance. Paul more or less takes up this whole argument.

 

[StormyOne]

The default condition is lost...but since everyone gets a chance, it still demands turning away. The point is, once you sin, you are lost and in need of a Savior. There is no way around that. But God extends to each the chance for forgiveness.
I will analyze this in light of Romans 1-3 in a bit ..if I get a chance. Paul more or less takes up this whole argument.

Sin is a condition.... the act is a symptom of that condition... Jesus rectified our condition, the Holy Spirit helps us with the acts....

 

[tall73]

Does Jesus rectify the condition before we believe though?

 

[StormyOne]

Does Jesus rectify the condition before we believe though?

Yes... when Jesus died he rectified the condition for all time... He freed us... the problem is that we don't believe that we are free... so we continue to act like we are enslaved...

 

[HoneyDew]

Yes... when Jesus died he rectified the condition for all time... He freed us... the problem is that we don't believe that we are free... so we continue to act like we are enslaved...

There are several passages that indicate that Christ died for ALL. I don't have e-sword so maybe someone with it can post some texts, please?