YOUR PRAYERS are URGENTLY NEEDED!!!

[RND]

Of course we should be loving about it. Nowhere in that newsletter does it say, or even hint at, being heartless and cruel towards homosexuals. But we still have to stand for what God says is right. It is completely possible to be both kind and firm on an issue. The major problem, however, is that we're barely making a stand at all, loving or otherwise. It can be just as bad to be silent than oppressive.

Obviously, we have a disagreement as to the role of the church and the role of the Christian in public society. If we took the same approach towards those in prison we'd never would venture into entering one to commune and pray with the prisoners.

God loves everyone, we should too.

 

[trubeautie]

You know, in my mind it all comes down to people not being all that secure in their knowledge of God and the wonderful things God is able to accomplish.

What is the best way to convert the unconverted? Love or condemnation? Understanding or chastisement? If we as Christians believe in what we believe in then we can allow people to be wrong and still not have it effect our belief system. Homosexuality is wrong and it will forever be wrong. Yet, can we truly love those that insist on doing things their own way, the wrong way, and not have it effect the basic beliefs we all share and that is, "God is love?"

How does one convey "God is love" to another while condemning them at the same time?

I see this as the great dichotomy that must be answered by all Christians. Can we love even those that despise and hate us? Will we feed them, clothe them, help them even though they may wish us dead? I struggle with this myself, seemingly at the time, and yet we know exactly what Christ would do....He would forgive and not condemn. He didn't say on the cross, "Father, please exact the most painful retribution on these miserable sots that have nothing but evil in there hearts." He forgave and said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do."

Can we see the homosexual, the thief, the murderer, the adulterer, the gossiper or for that matter our own neighbor as needing our forgiveness first and our willingness to understand as well because "they know not what they do."

Whether the state wants to recognize that a man can marry a man is not nearly as much as a concern of mine as whether I can still love and still care about people that have made a colossal error. Whether the state wants to recognize that a man can marry a man should never shake my firm belief in my faith and the mercy and love that God has to offer even those that hate Him. Whether the state wants to recognize that a man can marry a man should never shake anyone's faith in what God and what the continual prayer of a righteous man can accomplish.

The state is wrong, period. Yet the state is made of people that need God just as desperately as we do and these people need our prayers. "Lord, open their eyes. Open their hearts to the truth of your word and the glorious love you have for them." Does the Lord care who wins the football game when both teams pray for victory? Does the Lord care who wins the game of allowing gays to marry and both sides pray for victory? Or does the Lord care when we don't display a heart filled with the same pity, mercy and compassion of our enemies as He does for His?

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Mat. 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so? Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The question is this. Is God's love so powerful as to allow even those that are mistaken, and which seek their foolish ways, and that even hate Him and yet still reach out in a desperate attempt to save, to bless and not curse?

Yes, absolutely. That is the right question to ask. We must always be able to show the love of God to all those who we come in contact with, even though we may not agree with their choices. Thank you for the reminder of what our Savior said on the cross. That is the attitude that we ought to portray. Sin is sin, and we are all in need of forgiveness. Too many times homosexuality is emphasized more than other sins. It is almost as though one is forgivable in our eyes but not the other. I believe that we need to push away such beliefs and remember Jesus’ example on earth. Our approach certainly must be one of compassion.

Further, if we support legislation that bans gays from marrying, would we also support a ban of pre-marital sex? How far does it go? This hurts my heart because I truly feel as though some of us as Adventist Christians are forgetting what we believe and stand for simply because the issue is now homosexuality. You are very right in stating that what the state chooses to allow should not shake our faith in God, as the Holy Scriptures give us clear instruction regarding what right and wrong – about how to live. We should be most concerned with making sure that our lives are a reflection of Jesus at all times, so that we reach others.

 

[trubeautie]

we, each one of us, can vote for whatever we believe to be right, or wrong. our church should not get involved. i read some of the issues on one site some time ago-for the prop-but another site that had done some reseach pretty much rebutted them.

i am against gay marriage. i think its wrong. but, the tactics the "good guys" are using seems as wrong to me.

i read ahead and rnd makes very good points. quietly go vote your conscience. quietly, lovingly, make your case against gay marriage if you feel constrained to do so. but make as few enemies as possible. God wants to save them as much as He does anyone else.

i cant speak for anyone elses G/god, but i know mine does not consider homosexuality a worse sin than any other sin. i know that He loves the gay as much as He loves my worthless self. the tiniest, once-committed-only sin will still keep someone out of heaven.

i wish people were as vehement against slandering/misrepresenting etc as they are against homosexuality.

2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

I agree completely. Your post as well as RND's post are very encouraging. At least there are some of us who see things from this perspective. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Nicodema]

It seems pretty simple. God does not give us license to use political power to make other people miserable or deny them the same rights we have. We do not convert people to His Love that way. It would be a better witness to stand with the oppressed on the side of their rights focusing on them as people with needs rather than on them as sinners who need to be punished or ostracised to supposedly show them their sin. That approach never works, it only makes people dig in their heels more stubbornly and fight. Mine will not be the popular view here but so be it. I speak as God directs and do not care whether I have the favor of men or not.

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hello once again to all who have posted to, or read, this thread.

After rereading the first few post and reading the additional post that have been made in this thread I must say that I doubt that everyone who has posted to this thread read the OP carefully or understands completely what this whole contrversy is all about.

For starters in the OP I made no mention of, or made any request for, anyone to do anything other than pray. No one was ask to vote on a ballot measure or campaign in any way.

As someone who has spent more than a few hours in a trial court, and prepared more than one brief, and understands the full implications of what is taking place at the moment as well as what may take place in the future concerning our personal freedoms and our religious liberties, I ask each of you to be patient and read the balence of this post with an open mind. I would truly like to have the time and energy to give a full discourse on this subject. However for an economy of time and space I'll attempt to give some of the most important points that should be considered.

First let me point out these points from my opening post; "We do not hate homosexuals! (It would be my guess that I probably have more friends and aquaintences that are gay that anyone here.) We love them as God loves them and as He loves all sinners. But the practice of homosexuality is condemned by the Bible as sin, and Jesus came to save us from sin. God loves sinners, but hates sin, and we should be like Him. As Christians we should stand up for the institution of marriage as God established it." May I also point out that there were two things that were given to man by God Himself at creation. They were marriage and the Sabbath. If marriage is put on a strictly secular basis from a legal standpoint it will become much easier to implement laws against Sabbath keeping.

There are many, both SDA and non-SDA, that seem to think that those who supported Prop. 8 last November are automatically are against homosexuals as people, but that is not the case. You will also notice that I did not ask anyone to do anything other than pray about this matter. I can't speak for others, but I want God and the Holy Spirit to influence the outcome of these matters according to God's will, not according what seems right to me or any other human being.

I don't know how many of you have followed, or been involved in, this whole matter since it begain over a decade ago here in California but the longer you may have been involverd personally the more you will be able to see that this is not discrimnatory against gays. Let me explain.

There are several major areas of concern. First is the matter of constitutional law. The constitutions of every state in the U.S. were originally written with the word "marriage" being understood as between a man and a woman. Just as God intended it in the Garden of Eden. Because of the pressure from the gay activist, the people of California, several years ago, voted overwhelmingly to simply add to the wording of our constitution by ammendent, to clearly state that marriage was, and is, intended to be between a man and a woman. The gays appealed and a judge overturned the vote. Last November the people had gotten enough signatures to have it put back on the ballot which resulted in the reaffirmation of the previous vote. I won't bore you with all the details, but what has happened is that a state court has overturned a constitutional amendment that was put there by the electorate. The vote last November actually became a part of the constitution itself. This time it will a violation of the California State Constitution for a judge to rule on the validity of the constitution that has been put in place by the electorate.

Why is that so important you ask? It is extremely important because if a judge is allowed to overturn portions of the constitution it will also make it possible to take away other personal freedoms such as, but mnot limited to, our freedom of when, how, and where, you worship, and even what a pastor can, or can not, say or preach about from the pulpit.

Right now, in other jurisdictions, suit has been filed by gay activist charging ministers with "hate crimes" because they have spoken against homosexuality. If this kind of thing is not stopped it will become possible for churches to loose their tax exempt status as well. It will also have a profound effect on what may, or may not, be taught in schools whether they be public schools or church schools. It would make it impossible for any minister to refuse to perform a gay marriage even in the church.

One last point on the issue of gay marriage. Gay's now have, and will continue to have, the same rights/benefits of a "marriage" but the name of this action is a "Civil Union."

What I have stated here is but the tip of the iceberg. I pray that you can now understand the importance of asking God oversee this and let His will be done in this matter. If you have any questions please free to ask.

May God put His loving arms around each you, the Holy Angels protect you, and the Holy Spirit guide and comfort you as we travel salvations highway to our heavenly home.

Respectfully, your friend and brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[RND]

Doc, having re-read the post based on the first line in your comment I have to say that just because most disagreed with you doesn't mean we didn't read what your wrote "carefully" or that any have failed to "understand(s) completely what this whole controversy is all about" it just means we disagreed!

In fact, I think most here would agree with what the 'real' controversy is all about......"The Great Controversy between Christ and Satan."

Satan wants us to think that when we go to the polls to voice our displeasure at others in society that we are doing the will of God. As a Christian, and a Seventh-day Adventist at that, I can not see Jesus Christ entering into a voting booth to vote yea or nay on a particular matter. I just can't place that picture in my mind. As I said basically said before, "What Caesar wants, Caesar gets."

If we, as Christians and as Adventist's, wish to use the voting booth as a sword to skewer those very people we should extend the hand of love and understanding too should we be anymore shocked when the state and majority uses the same voting booth against us and our beliefs?

The bottom line is simply this Doc. The state (Caesar) wants "same sex marriage" and they want it very badly. For every marriage certificate that Caesar can create he can issue a bond on that "certificate of ownership" allowing more money to be issued by his bank. He will stop at nothing to get what he wants!

We must pray to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that He continues to work in the hearts of those that desperately need Him, His Son and His Holy Spirit just as you and I at one time were in the same "lost" condition and in need as well! That never happens in a voting booth, it happens on our knees!

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hello RND,

My request for prayer is exactly what you are indicating you also want done and that is for the Lord's will to be done as He sees fit not me or you or anyone else.

There is no public vote involved. No one is being ask to vote or make any public decision. The voting has already taken place. The outcome of the two previous ballot measures has been challenged in California's Supreme Court and the Justices have now taken the case for review. Whether it remains as the people of California have voted or if it is overturned is strictly up to the court. Only God has the ability to influence that decision. My prayer is simply that God's will be done.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[RND]

Hello RND,

My request for prayer is exactly what you are indicating you also want done and that is for the Lord's will to be done as He sees fit not me or you or anyone else.

There is no public vote involved. No one is being ask to vote or make any public decision. The voting has already taken place. The outcome of the two previous ballot measures has been challenged in California's Supreme Court and the Justices have now taken the case for review. Whether it remains as the people of California have voted or if it is overturned is strictly up to the court. Only God has the ability to influence that decision. My prayer is simply that God's will be done.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

Not to be nosy Doc but did you originally vote for passage of proposition 8? I hear there are two college kids that are trying to get a ballot measure on the ballot that would completely eliminate any recognition by the state of "any" marriage - of course, I don't think Caesar would let that happen either!

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hi RND,

In answer to your question:

"Not to be nosy Doc but did you originally vote for passage of proposition 8?

No, you're not being nosy. I did indeed vote for Prop 8 last November. I did so because of my conviction that the two great institutions, the Sabbath and marriage are both things that, as Christians, we should honor and protect. These two things which the Creator gave to man at Creation are inseperabaly intertwined from Genesis to Revelaition.

There is no argument that the Sabbath is going to be one of the marks of our loyalty to God and will be the only alternitive to the mark of the beast.

In Rev. 14:12 we read;

12 "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Then in Rev. 19:20 we read;

20 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

From Rev. 7:1-3:

1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

Finally in Rev 20:4 we find the results of recieving the mark of the beast and recieving the Seal of God:

4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

The reason I have given these text is to establish the importance of the Sabbath if we are going to spend a thousand years with Christ after His second coming to be followed by all eternity.

So, where/how does marriage come into all of this you ask? Marriage is the most used comparison in all the Bible to illustrate the relationship between Christ and His Church, His children. The ultimate goal of that reltionship is that we will be able to sit down at the Marriage Feast of the Lamb.

It is quite clear that Satan wants to, if possible, destroy any symbolism that God has used, or is using, to show our relationship to our creator. The first target is marriage between a man and a woman. By doing so it removes mariage from the creation of man by our creator there by it erodes the entire account of creation and thus the origin of man and our salvation.

The entire conflict between Christ and Satan is a matter of worship. Which one will we worship? At the creation of man, the gift of the Sabbath and the gift of marriage are the two things that Satan can not duplicate. Counterfit and replace, yes! Duplicate, no!

There is yet another component to to be considered and that is how will the issue over marriage affect the coming conflict over the Sabbath.

I will not attempt to go into all the legalities involved if the "rights" of a very small monority are upheld over the "rights/wishes" of the majority. (I will however tell you that there are currently provosions available to same sex couples that will allow them every leagal benifit of marriage but does not use the word marriage.) Simply put the precident that would be set would clear the way for a reverse application. In other words it will make it much easier to reverse the process and the rights of Sabbath keepers in the future.

The concept of one male and one female is from God and creation. The concept of two people of the same sex God calls an abomnation.

We may not be able to change the ultimate outcome of this "marriage" issue, or the outcome of the callenge over Sabbath worship, but we must continue the strugle to preserve what God has ordained until Christ returns in the clouds of glory to take us to the Marriage Feast of the Lamb.

Respecfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[Idol Breaker]

Keep up the good work Doc, get it out while you can for it won't be long until laws are passed that restrict our profession of our faith and what it entails. Be thankful for now that we don't live in Canada else we'd all be going to jail or heavily fined for speaking out against this issue.

Love in Christ.

 

[RND]

Hi RND,

In answer to your question: No, you're not being nosy. I did indeed vote for Prop 8 last November. I did so because of my conviction that the two great institutions, the Sabbath and marriage are both things that, as Christians, we should honor and protect. These two things which the Creator gave to man at Creation are inseperabaly intertwined from Genesis to Revelaition.

Thanks Doc...I appreciate you letting me know your voting position on Prop. 8. Not being a voter nor one who believes voting is a requirement of our faith as Christians I'm glad you at least voted your conscious.

There is no argument that the Sabbath is going to be one of the marks of our loyalty to God and will be the only alternitive to the mark of the beast.

In Rev. 14:12 we read; Then in Rev. 19:20 we read; From Rev. 7:1-3:Finally in Rev 20:4 we find the results of recieving the mark of the beast and recieving the Seal of God: The reason I have given these text is to establish the importance of the Sabbath if we are going to spend a thousand years with Christ after His second coming to be followed by all eternity.

I think the mark of the beast is force, fear, intimidation and manipulation. That said I think we can find that in a voting booth.

So, where/how does marriage come into all of this you ask? Marriage is the most used comparison in all the Bible to illustrate the relationship between Christ and His Church, His children. The ultimate goal of that reltionship is that we will be able to sit down at the Marriage Feast of the Lamb.

I agree, but I know see where Jesus ever asked us to defend "marriage" in the Sermon on the Mount.

It is quite clear that Satan wants to, if possible, destroy any symbolism that God has used, or is using, to show our relationship to our creator. The first target is marriage between a man and a woman. By doing so it removes mariage from the creation of man by our creator there by it erodes the entire account of creation and thus the origin of man and our salvation.

The entire conflict between Christ and Satan is a matter of worship. Which one will we worship? At the creation of man, the gift of the Sabbath and the gift of marriage are the two things that Satan can not duplicate. Counterfit and replace, yes! Duplicate, no!

I agree Doc. Satan looks to counterfeit everything of God. That should be something we reaily speak to others in love.

There is yet another component to to be considered and that is how will the issue over marriage affect the coming conflict over the Sabbath.

I will not attempt to go into all the legalities involved if the "rights" of a very small monority are upheld over the "rights/wishes" of the majority. (I will however tell you that there are currently provosions available to same sex couples that will allow them every leagal benifit of marriage but does not use the word marriage.) Simply put the precident that would be set would clear the way for a reverse application. In other words it will make it much easier to reverse the process and the rights of Sabbath keepers in the future.

Right! Shouldn't we embrace what Jesus said when we see these things happening?

The concept of one male and one female is from God and creation. The concept of two people of the same sex God calls an abomnation.

Right, no argument from me there.

We may not be able to change the ultimate outcome of this "marriage" issue, or the outcome of the callenge over Sabbath worship, but we must continue the strugle to preserve what God has ordained until Christ returns in the clouds of glory to take us to the Marriage Feast of the Lamb.

I just don't see that as Christians this is something we've been asked to do.

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hi RND,

I just returned from the medical center and when I opened my mail I found the following post that had just come in. It is from a nonSDA religious liberty organization and I think you might find it interesting. The only thing I'm going to edit is a request for funding.

"From the Desk of:

Mat Staver

Doc,

A shocking and very disturbing report has just crossed my desk
that could fundamentally shift the marriage debate in America.

In fact, if this new strategy works, it could literally mean
the "End of Marriage."

Earlier this month, the California Supreme Court heard oral
arguments regarding the homosexual activists' challenge to
Proposition 8 -- the amendment defining marriage as one man
and one woman that was approved by voters last November.

Liberty Counsel's amicus brief for this case makes it clear
that the California Supreme Court has no legal or constitutional
grounds to reject Proposition 8. But as I learned when I
argued the original same-sex marriage case before this same
Court last year, the homosexual activists (and judges with
an agenda!) are not deterred by the facts.

+ + How the California Court could "end" marriage

During the arguments in this year's case, a "compromise" was
discussed that would supposedly satisfy all parties --
affirming the result of Proposition 8 but resolving the
alleged "equal protection" problem of not allowing homosexuals
to marry.

What was that compromise? Simply end the use of the term "marriage"
altogether by the state of California! When asked by one of the
justices, lawyers from both sides agreed that the so-called
"compromise" would resolve the legal disputes. But the
ramifications of a new legal principle that ends marriage
would be devastating!

+ + Dangerous phase in the battle over marriage

Doc, we do not know what the California court will do.
But one thing is clear:

We are entering the most dangerous and most difficult
phase in the battle to save marriage we have yet seen.

The California court ruling could be announced any day and Liberty
Counsel must be ready. No matter who the decision favors, many
Californians will be outraged. If the decision goes against
pro-homosexual interests, we expect dramatic public demonstrations
and possibly even rioting.

Our lawyers are working on several marriage-related cases right now,
but I expect a flood of new cases to result from the California
decision, no matter which way it goes.

We cannot allow these activists and judges to "end"
marriage. Will you help me prepare for this crucial phase
of the marriage battle?

We know the political climate in Washington, D.C., under President
Obama and the Pelosi Congress is hostile to marriage. Our only
defense is to fight in the courts.

But we must be ready. Please help today. Thank you in advance for
your generous gift to Liberty Counsel, and may God bless you.


Mathew Staver, Founder and Chairman
Liberty Counsel

P.S. This new legal strategy that "ends" marriage is one of the
most dangerous threats we have yet seen to the institution of
marriage. I must fight back -- in the courtroom and the court
of public opinion.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

I'll be back in a bit to make comment on your last post.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[RND]

As I said Doc....if Caesar wants same sex marriage Caesar is going to get it.

 

[honorthesabbath]

Unless I have been misinformed, it's my understanding that the citizens of California have THREE (3) times VOTED on this issue and with the majority voice have declared that marriage is defined between a man and a woman. Now who is the Supreme Court to over-ride the will of the people?