YOUR PRAYERS are URGENTLY NEEDED!!!

[thecountrydoc]

Hello Friends!

We live in momentous times. The devil is hard at work to undermine God's program. This coming Thursday, March 5, the California Supreme Court will hear arguments regarding the striking down of California's recently passed Proposition 8, which defines marriage as being between one man and one woman. I invite you to pray (following the example of Daniel in this chapter) for God's agencies to work on the minds of civil authorities to made a decision favorable to His cause. Think carefully what Gabriel said about Daniel's prayer, "your word was heard."

The attack against marriage in California is not limited to what will happen at the Court hearing (they will announce their decision within 90 days of the hearing). There are bills in California's Assembly (House Resolution #5) and Senate (Senate Resolution #7) which are in support of overthrowing Proposition 8. Signatures are being gathered to have another ammendment at the next election, which will counter the effect of Proposition 8. Finally, given the posture of the current presidency and make-up of Congress, there is serious concern that the "Marriage Protection Act" (which said that states are not required to recognize the same-sex marriages performed by other states..currently Massachusettes and Connecticutt allow same-sex marriage), which passed by a wide majority in congress and was signed by President Bill Clinton September 21, 1996, will be superceded by the current pro-gay legislature and executive branch.

We do not hate homosexuals! We love them as God loves them and as He loves all sinners. But the practice of homosexuality is condemned by the Bible as sin, and Jesus came to save us from sin. God loves sinners, but hates sin, and we should be like Him. As Christians we should stand up for the institution of marriage as God established it. Pray that God will move upon the minds of decision makers in these climactic moments of earth's history. All that is required for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

Your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[trubeautie]

This is an interesting issue. California Adventists (and others) are split on this issue. On one side there are those who would like legislation to prevent homosexuals from "marrying" and then on the other side were those that believe in maintaining separation of church and state (even when not favorable to them).

My question why aren't more Adventists fighting this from the perspective that there should not be any legislation in this regard? It is a highly religiously charged issue, another reason the government should not be in the "marriage business." However, ultimately shouldn't we not attempt to abridge others' right to choose even though we believe their lifestyles to be wrong?

 

[reddogs]

Hello Friends!

We live in momentous times. The devil is hard at work to undermine God's program. This coming Thursday, March 5, the California Supreme Court will hear arguments regarding the striking down of California's recently passed Proposition 8, which defines marriage as being between one man and one woman. I invite you to pray (following the example of Daniel in this chapter) for God's agencies to work on the minds of civil authorities to made a decision favorable to His cause. Think carefully what Gabriel said about Daniel's prayer, "your word was heard."

The attack against marriage in California is not limited to what will happen at the Court hearing (they will announce their decision within 90 days of the hearing). There are bills in California's Assembly (House Resolution #5) and Senate (Senate Resolution #7) which are in support of overthrowing Proposition 8. Signatures are being gathered to have another ammendment at the next election, which will counter the effect of Proposition 8. Finally, given the posture of the current presidency and make-up of Congress, there is serious concern that the "Marriage Protection Act" (which said that states are not required to recognize the same-sex marriages performed by other states..currently Massachusettes and Connecticutt allow same-sex marriage), which passed by a wide majority in congress and was signed by President Bill Clinton September 21, 1996, will be superceded by the current pro-gay legislature and executive branch.

We do not hate homosexuals! We love them as God loves them and as He loves all sinners. But the practice of homosexuality is condemned by the Bible as sin, and Jesus came to save us from sin. God loves sinners, but hates sin, and we should be like Him. As Christians we should stand up for the institution of marriage as God established it. Pray that God will move upon the minds of decision makers in these climactic moments of earth's history. All that is required for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

Your brother in Christ,
Doc

Hey Doc,

Good to see you. I think as christians we always have to stand on the side of what God has shown us, that for a christian is not a seperation of church and state issue. But it should be a individual issue not something for the church or GC to get into, so prayer is a excellent suggestion in this matter.

God Bless
Red

 

[woobadooba]

Hello Friends!

We live in momentous times. The devil is hard at work to undermine God's program. This coming Thursday, March 5, the California Supreme Court will hear arguments regarding the striking down of California's recently passed Proposition 8, which defines marriage as being between one man and one woman. I invite you to pray (following the example of Daniel in this chapter) for God's agencies to work on the minds of civil authorities to made a decision favorable to His cause. Think carefully what Gabriel said about Daniel's prayer, "your word was heard."

The attack against marriage in California is not limited to what will happen at the Court hearing (they will announce their decision within 90 days of the hearing). There are bills in California's Assembly (House Resolution #5) and Senate (Senate Resolution #7) which are in support of overthrowing Proposition 8. Signatures are being gathered to have another ammendment at the next election, which will counter the effect of Proposition 8. Finally, given the posture of the current presidency and make-up of Congress, there is serious concern that the "Marriage Protection Act" (which said that states are not required to recognize the same-sex marriages performed by other states..currently Massachusettes and Connecticutt allow same-sex marriage), which passed by a wide majority in congress and was signed by President Bill Clinton September 21, 1996, will be superceded by the current pro-gay legislature and executive branch.

We do not hate homosexuals! We love them as God loves them and as He loves all sinners. But the practice of homosexuality is condemned by the Bible as sin, and Jesus came to save us from sin. God loves sinners, but hates sin, and we should be like Him. As Christians we should stand up for the institution of marriage as God established it. Pray that God will move upon the minds of decision makers in these climactic moments of earth's history. All that is required for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

Your brother in Christ,
Doc

Doc, I too, feel that it is important to pray. However, we must remember that our current government does not serve the same God that we serve; and the cup of iniquity must be full before the LORD returns.

And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. (Luke 17:26-30 NKJV)

 

[RND]

This is an interesting issue. California Adventists (and others) are split on this issue. On one side there are those who would like legislation to prevent homosexuals from "marrying" and then on the other side were those that believe in maintaining separation of church and state (even when not favorable to them).

My question why aren't more Adventists fighting this from the perspective that there should not be any legislation in this regard? It is a highly religiously charged issue, another reason the government should not be in the "marriage business." However, ultimately shouldn't we not attempt to abridge others' right to choose even though we believe their lifestyles to be wrong?

I agree. My curiosity has always revolved around the insistence that a piece of paper issued by the state means two are married. Why would simply writing names down in the family Bible, as was the previous way these things were done be any less of a marriage?

Whenever we ask the state to get involved in anything, for any reason the sure bet is that 1) the state will, and 2) they will take the road that is most advantageous for the state, not for everyone else.

 

[teresaq]

i have been pretty vocal on this issue, possibly ending up looking like im for something im not.

i believe the devil has us between a rock and a hard place on this issue and he probably couldnt have picked a better one.

meddling in the lives of others and church and state versus morality.

yes we do need to pray, for the wisdom of God.

 

[trubeautie]

i have been pretty vocal on this issue, possibly ending up looking like im for something im not.

i believe the devil has us between a rock and a hard place on this issue and he probably couldnt have picked a better one.

meddling in the lives of others and church and state versus morality.

yes we do need to pray, for the wisdom of God.

Please share your perspective on the issue...

 

[trubeautie]

Hey Doc,

Good to see you. I think as christians we always have to stand on the side of what God has shown us, that for a christian is not a seperation of church and state issue. But it should be a individual issue not something for the church or GC to get into, so prayer is a excellent suggestion in this matter.

God Bless
Red

How is this not a separation of church and state issue? I have had this discussion with others and still see the issue.

Let me ask this to anyone who will answer...

When does a couple become married? When they take their vows or when they register with the state?

 

[RND]

How is this not a separation of church and state issue? I have had this discussion with others and still see the issue.

Let me ask this to anyone who will answer...

When does a couple become married? When they take their vows or when they register with the state?

You know how I feel. When they take their vows. I'll go even one better....what God reads in the heart.

 

[trubeautie]

You know how I feel. When they take their vows. I'll go even one better....what God reads in the heart.

So then why do so many of us as Adventists...and as Christians in general get so caught up in what the state allows or does not allow? If we believe that marriage is between a man and a women, I do wonder why so much emphasis is put on their demand for recognition by the state. According to God, they would still not be married. So unless we are fighting against marriage legislation in general, should we even be "taking sides?"

People say this isn't a church/state issue. But if we favor the proposition, are we not doing so due to our religion? Even the OP states that the reason we should support the proposition is due to the sinfulness of homosexuality. Is this not pushing our religious mores on others?

Guess I would like to understand the perspective of those who support this legislation. It seems like those who are against the proposition take the stance not because they support homosexuality but because people have the right to choose how to conduct their personal lives.

 

[RND]

So then why do so many of us as Adventists...and as Christians in general get so caught up in what the state allows or does not allow? If we believe that marriage is between a man and a women, I do wonder why so much emphasis is put on their demand for recognition by the state. According to God, they would still not be married. So unless we are fighting against marriage legislation in general, should we even be "taking sides?"

People say this isn't a church/state issue. But if we favor the proposition, are we not doing so due to our religion? Even the OP states that the reason we should support the proposition is due to the sinfulness of homosexuality. Is this not pushing our religious mores on others?

Guess I would like to understand the perspective of those who support this legislation. It seems like those who are against the proposition take the stance not because they support homosexuality but because people have the right to choose how to conduct their personal lives.

You know, in my mind it all comes down to people not being all that secure in their knowledge of God and the wonderful things God is able to accomplish.

What is the best way to convert the unconverted? Love or condemnation? Understanding or chastisement? If we as Christians believe in what we believe in then we can allow people to be wrong and still not have it effect our belief system. Homosexuality is wrong and it will forever be wrong. Yet, can we truly love those that insist on doing things their own way, the wrong way, and not have it effect the basic beliefs we all share and that is, "God is love?"

How does one convey "God is love" to another while condemning them at the same time?

I see this as the great dichotomy that must be answered by all Christians. Can we love even those that despise and hate us? Will we feed them, clothe them, help them even though they may wish us dead? I struggle with this myself, seemingly at the time, and yet we know exactly what Christ would do....He would forgive and not condemn. He didn't say on the cross, "Father, please exact the most painful retribution on these miserable sots that have nothing but evil in there hearts." He forgave and said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do."

Can we see the homosexual, the thief, the murderer, the adulterer, the gossiper or for that matter our own neighbor as needing our forgiveness first and our willingness to understand as well because "they know not what they do."

Whether the state wants to recognize that a man can marry a man is not nearly as much as a concern of mine as whether I can still love and still care about people that have made a colossal error. Whether the state wants to recognize that a man can marry a man should never shake my firm belief in my faith and the mercy and love that God has to offer even those that hate Him. Whether the state wants to recognize that a man can marry a man should never shake anyone's faith in what God and what the continual prayer of a righteous man can accomplish.

The state is wrong, period. Yet the state is made of people that need God just as desperately as we do and these people need our prayers. "Lord, open their eyes. Open their hearts to the truth of your word and the glorious love you have for them." Does the Lord care who wins the football game when both teams pray for victory? Does the Lord care who wins the game of allowing gays to marry and both sides pray for victory? Or does the Lord care when we don't display a heart filled with the same pity, mercy and compassion of our enemies as He does for His?

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so? Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The question is this. Is God's love so powerful as to allow even those that are mistaken, and which seek their foolish ways, and that even hate Him and yet still reach out in a desperate attempt to save, to bless and not curse?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

What is the best way to convert the unconverted? Love or condemnation? Understanding or chastisement?

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."
Hebrews 12:6

 

[RND]

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."
Hebrews 12:6

"The Lord" not His followers.

 

[teresaq]

Please share your perspective on the issue...

we, each one of us, can vote for whatever we believe to be right, or wrong. our church should not get involved. i read some of the issues on one site some time ago-for the prop-but another site that had done some reseach pretty much rebutted them.

i am against gay marriage. i think its wrong. but, the tactics the "good guys" are using seems as wrong to me.

i read ahead and rnd makes very good points. quietly go vote your conscience. quietly, lovingly, make your case against gay marriage if you feel constrained to do so. but make as few enemies as possible. God wants to save them as much as He does anyone else.

i cant speak for anyone elses G/god, but i know mine does not consider homosexuality a worse sin than any other sin. i know that He loves the gay as much as He loves my worthless self. the tiniest, once-committed-only sin will still keep someone out of heaven.

i wish people were as vehement against slandering/misrepresenting etc as they are against homosexuality.

2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hello to everyone has posted to, or read, this thread.

I would like to thank all of you for your particiapation. Those of you who have posted have brought up some very good points that need to be addressed. At the moment time doesn't allow me to respond to each point raised but I will be back after while and attempt to make a cogent rsponse.

In the meantime please take a minute to read a letter I just recieved from Mr. Brian Burch, Director of the Catholic public awareness organization CathoilcVote.org. As you will readly see Seventh-day Adventist are not the only demonation or group that see these legistative actions as something that against the family and biblical teaching. When I return I will also attempt to explain some of the legal implication as well.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc
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CatholicVote.org

Dear CatholicVote.org Member,

If you spend any time on the Internet or watch television news these days, the number of threats and crises can seem overwhelming. Our government is spending trillions of borrowed dollars, while proposing huge changes in how it will control our economy, health care, and other areas of our national life.

In the midst of these broad changes, a number of specific and important battles are occurring. The new Congress and Obama administration are proposing policies that will impact human life, workers rights of conscience, taxpayer freedoms, and the list goes on. Each day brings a new challenge and focal point, and it may seem hard to keep up.

We are closely following each of these issues, and could responsibly send you a 'call to action' or update every few hours. A number of very good organizations are working tirelessly to respond to each new threat, and we applaud them. In many cases, CatholicVote.org is working alongside these groups, and we encourage you to stay as active as possible. The threats are real, and require our utmost attention and vigilance.

Tomorrow in San Francisco, yet another critical issue hangs in the balance. The California Supreme Court is scheduled to hear arguments on whether to void the Marriage Amendment passed by an overwhelming majority of California voters last November.

CatholicVote.org is especially interested in this court case because it goes to the heart of what we are all about. During the Election last fall, we mobilized concerned citizens to vote their conscience. We produced a short video that became one of the most watched videos on the Internet for the entire election cycle, viewed by millions of Americans.

Can you guess which state where our video was most popular? Yes, it was California. Our analytics software shows that nearly 500,000 people in California watched our election film on their computers. And hundreds of thousands more watched it in their churches, and at their football stadium (yes, our video was broadcast at Qualcomm Stadium in San Diego during The Call prayer rally!).

Why does this matter? Because if there is anything that we have accomplished over the past six months, it has been an awakening of conscience for many Americans. We have worked to both inspire and educate voters with media campaigns that speak to people's minds and hearts. We worked to reach out to both Republicans and Democrats. Catholics and Protestants. Every American with a conscience. And tens of thousands responded by telling us how much our work has impacted them - including how they voted.

In California, we are hopeful that our efforts played a role, however small, in the success of the marriage amendment passed last November.

In fact, we are so concerned about protecting the impact of our work, and the wishes of California voters, that we filed an important legal brief in this case on behalf of you - the supporters of CatholicVote.org. Our main point was simple: Marriage is a fundamental institution that society must protect. And when it does, as voters did in California, judges must respect the result.

In fact, at stake is not only the institution of marriage, but also self-government. Prior to the vote, California judges overturned the state's marriage laws without any vote in the Legislature. But the people fought back and amended their Constitution to affirm the special role of marriage in society.

Arguing on behalf of the pro-marriage coalition is a former U.S. Solicitor General. And the Court must hand down a decision within 90 days.

CatholicVote.org urges all of its supporters and friends to pray tomorrow for the defense of marriage in California. California is the most populous state in our union and it has often been a trendsetter. This case is extremely important. Please ask your friends and family to pray!

Thank you,
Brian Burch
CatholicVote.org


P.S. Last week we rolled out some new web advertising for our latest ad, including a prominent ad that ran on the Drudge Report. In less than 8 hours, over 40,000 viewers clicked through to watch our ad. The advertising representative told us it was one of the highest "click-through rates" he had ever seen. We plan to be more aggressive in advertising online as we grow. Our new website and next ad are also in production and will be ready soon. Stay tuned!

 

[teresaq]

now, my brother, substitute sunday versus sabbath in this article and we will have a clear picture of how it will soon be going down for us.

so when the government decides that a sunday law is unconstitional, all that has to be done is manipulate and incite the people and they will vote in a sunday law!!!

why on earth does it matter what any other church believes or does? and when, just when, are we supposed to do something because the papacy does it?


i am horrified when i see sdas buying into these tactics. using a papal article to prove why we, seventh day adventists, should meddle in others lives, use the government to force people to live by our standards leaves me speechless!!!

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hello once again my friends,

In my last post I said;

"I would like to thank all of you for your particiapation. Those of you who have posted have brought up some very good points that need to be addressed. At the moment time doesn't allow me to respond to each point raised but I will be back after while and attempt to make a cogent rsponse."

I had a few minutes between other duties and took a look at each response made so far in this thread. Once again I would like to thank each of you for your input. After taking a look at each response and the questions each poster has raised, and the points made, I can see that it will take a bit longer than anticipated to give a response that will cover each item properly. May I also suggest that each of you re-read the OP, my follow up post, and your own post so that we will be sure we are all on the same page.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hello once again,

I must appolize for not getting back sooner but it's taking me a bit longer than anticipated to spend much time at the computer. However, while I'm composing the balence of my response, here is something that hits the highlights for the points that all of you have posed. This was prepared by Amazing Facts.

The Facts: February 2009

The following article is a service of The Facts, the Amazing Facts e-newsletter. Get the latest news in evangelism and the ministry of Amazing Facts! The Facts features inspiring articles, great resources, and more. Sign up now for more links and resources!

The Calm Before the Storm
Revelation 13:16, 17 warns that in the future, Christians committed to honoring God’s commandments will have no legal rights in a future economy as a way to punish them into disobedience of His Word.

Well, in many ways, we are already seeing this happen. In one nation, people’s religious beliefs are being used as justification to be refused crucial foreign aid. In another, store shops are being forced to close on Sunday as a political concession to religious power. And in America, a provision in the economic stimulus package regarding religious activies on campus stirred controversy in congress.

A Return to Sodom?
For instance, in Nigeria, it is against the religious beliefs of both Christians and Muslims to commit homosexual acts. Moreover, their legislative body recently determined that the nation would not recognize homosexual marriage.

This vote in support of traditional marriage riled the European Union, which is now seeking to stop foreign aid to that nation. Matt Barber, a spokesperson for Liberty Counsel, says the EU is making an example of Nigeria: “[Activists] are using that body … to push the international homosexual agenda [on] countries that respect traditional values relative to sexual morality.”

Closer to home, Proposition 8, which amends the California constitution to define marriage as between a man and a woman, stirred up a great deal of controversy after its passage as many of its supporters began receiving threatening phone calls from angry activists, who “were using public lists to issue death threats, boycott businesses, accost people at their homes, and engage in other forms of harassment.”

This sends a chilling message to Christians to keep silent about their opposition to social movements that violate God’s will.

God Offers Hope in the Storm
What can Christians do when faced with extreme and often violent backlash against their beliefs — whether speaking out against immorality or standing in support of the Genesis account of creation?

Pastor Doug Batchelor says, “Stand up!”

He explains, “Once we know that something is right according to God’s Word, our responsibility is to take our stand. God is looking for representatives who will trust Him — ‘The eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him’ ” (2 Chronicles 16:9).

But more than that, He will use you for His glory. Pastor Doug adds, “When you stand firm for truth, your life will be a saving witness to your family, your friends, and your neighbors. And Christ has not left us to do this alone. According to Ephesians 6, He has provided His own armor to protect us so that we can withstand evil!”

Just remember that the correct posture for those wearing the armor of God is to stand, so resolve now by His grace to stand on the Rock and resist the waves of compromise that are sweeping God’s children from the shores of salvation. And always remember that when you take your stand, you do not stand alone. Jesus stands with you!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[RND]

Doc, what good does it do to stand for the truth and yet have no love? Is standing for the truth going to a voting booth and casting a voting for what "we" think the government should do? If so, then would we be prepared to accept the "will of the majority" when the sabbath is outlawed or severally restricted?

If Caesar (the state) wants men to marry men then Caesar (the state) will get it's way. It has the guns, munitions, manpower, force and will to make sure it gets what it wants. It always does. Instead of wringing our hands as Christians always do when the state acts like that proverbial 800 lb. gorilla we should more and more be willing to emulate the love of Christ in these matters and be glad for the things that are happening.....

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Homosexuality is a sad, sad thing....no doubt. But we can't look at the problem as if we have no mirrors in our house. We must be willing to be like Christ, to take the stance and attitude, that He did with the woman caught in adultery. If we as Christians were to show true Christian love and empathy towards non-Christians, i.e. sinners of all sort and ilk, how much better would the world see us and see the reflection of God's love in us?

Should we as Adventist's take the stand that the Westboro Baptist Church takes? Should we have websites titled, "God hates [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]?" (I still think Phelps is a Jesuit!),and picket with signs that say, "You're going to hell!"

 

[Xenon]

Doc, what good does it do to stand for the truth and yet have no love?

Of course we should be loving about it. Nowhere in that newsletter does it say, or even hint at, being heartless and cruel towards homosexuals. But we still have to stand for what God says is right. It is completely possible to be both kind and firm on an issue. The major problem, however, is that we're barely making a stand at all, loving or otherwise. It can be just as bad to be silent than oppressive.