Your Origin View

[GodSaves]

As many have seen on this forum theistic evolutionists vary greatly in their beliefs in Christianity. Creationist's beliefs vary very little. We all think we are being guided by the Holy Spirit. So, if we are all being guided by the Holy Spirit why do you think the beliefs of those who believe in evolution are very different than another who believes in evolution? Why do you think creationist's beliefs vary very little compared to another creationist?

 

[versastyle]

I think it is because the Holy Spirit isn't concerned with these issues. The Holy Spirit is for spiritual guidance and these types of conversations only result in bickering. There is no spiritual growth in the gain of the knowledge of our origins. The quest for this knowledge builds moral attributes, and value among each other, but if we were to hold strong to a particular belief that is irrelevant to our salvation, it becomes a strong-hold of our faith, one in which I do not give in to. It is a temptation in attempting to conquer these questions, and to change each others minds, when we are already of one mind, and where no struggle should exist.

This is why I hold the no-belief position when it comes to our question of origins, other than "God did it".

Personally, when I was a creationist, I was very close-minded. This is why they all pretty much agree. For one, they all use the same one-sided reference and build around it. As a TE, I found myself trusting everyone and everything in support of evolutionary theory, a little too open-minded. And evolution is one science in which I am not educated in to start with.

I let the evolutionists do their thing. I let creationists do their thing. I am extremely weary of their ways and motives. I however will thank God for doing His thing, whatever that might be.

 

[GodSaves]

What about in other area's of the Bible, it seems evolutionists vary there as well too, while creationists vary very little?

 

[versastyle]

What about in other area's of the Bible, it seems evolutionists vary there as well too, while creationists vary very little?

Its quite simple.

YEC's are generally not as inclined to think outside the box.
TE's are generally very inclined to do so.

 

[GodSaves]

Do you think the Holy SPirit is open to allowing Christians believe most parts of the Bible in anyway they wish?

 

[versastyle]

Do you think the Holy SPirit is open to allowing Christians believe most parts of the Bible in anyway they wish?

First we would have to establish the purpose of the Holy Spirit. Then you will need to establish what is meant by "allowing".

I personally think the Holy Spirit's only intent is spiritual guidance, and only intervenes in spiritual matters.

Things like the validity of a historical matter aren't really important to Him, nor whether you believe in them or not. As long as your eyes are on Jesus and the throne I think He's going to be pretty much satisfied. Much of everything else is window-dressing.

I think the Holy Spirit allows anything, example: all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial.

 

[Ben_Hur]

I am envisioning a river of christians/people. In the middle of the river is a dam that did not used to be there, but has built-up only recently. The dam is YEC'ism. On the upstream side of the dam are YEC'ers. Most of them believe that there is no way around the dam and the dam is the end of their origins studies.

On the downstream side of the dam are other christians that have made it over or through the dam seeking truth. As they traveled over, some were damaged. Some remained unscathed. Some were "killed." The ones who made it unscathed had deep faith. The damaged ones, less so and were discouraged when they learned of the truth of God's creation and how it didn't fit with the YEC interpretation of origins. The "killed" ones had even less faith, and lost it when they could not reconcile the truth of God's creation with their former YEC interpretations.

Had the dam not been there, all would have made it smoothly down the river.

 

[Vance]

I think the real question is why even Biblical literalists, such as YEC's, believe so dramatically differently on so many theological points, just like TE's do? If all literalists are led by the Spirit in their literal interpretations, why do they reach such different results on MUCH more important issues than origins?

 

[GodSaves]

We are talking about YEC and TE's, not a branch that encompasses those two. So if we can stick with TE's and YEC's please, it would be appreciated.

So why is it that TE's hold variously different views, from origins to Abraham, from Moses to Christ, and even Paul. There is such a great difference held by TE's in all these area's. In these area's there is hardly any difference in beliefs by YEC's. Why is this, if we are all lead by the Holy Spirit?

 

[GodSaves]

I am envisioning a river of christians/people. In the middle of the river is a dam that did not used to be there, but has built-up only recently. The dam is YEC'ism. On the upstream side of the dam are YEC'ers. Most of them believe that there is no way around the dam and the dam is the end of their origins studies.

On the downstream side of the dam are other christians that have made it over or through the dam seeking truth. As they traveled over, some were damaged. Some remained unscathed. Some were "killed." The ones who made it unscathed had deep faith. The damaged ones, less so and were discouraged when they learned of the truth of God's creation and how it didn't fit with the YEC interpretation of origins. The "killed" ones had even less faith, and lost it when they could not reconcile the truth of God's creation with their former YEC interpretations.

Had the dam not been there, all would have made it smoothly down the river.

This is a very relevant issue here. It was the same exact view held when Martin Luther broke away from the Church. He was also blamed for preaching that one needs to stick with what is written in the Bible and not add teachings to them. Many cited Martin Luther as man of little faith during the Reformation. This was because he went against the popular teachings and focused on the teachings of the Bible.

I am not trying to equate the two, but show that just because a popular belief is held and those who hold it call it the greater truth, doesn't mean it is. Also, because there are ones who are standing for Biblical truth and Biblical teachings that are found only in the Bible doesn't mean they are the ones who are ruining Christianity. It is only ruining it if one believes that truths need a veil so all can be accepted. Amorality.

 

[Vance]

We are talking about YEC and TE's, not a branch that encompasses those two. So if we can stick with TE's and YEC's please, it would be appreciated.

So why is it that TE's hold variously different views, from origins to Abraham, from Moses to Christ, and even Paul. There is such a great difference held by TE's in all these area's. In these area's there is hardly any difference in beliefs by YEC's. Why is this, if we are all lead by the Holy Spirit?

Well, first, we have seen that not all literalists DO believe the same. Among literalists, you have those who adhere to a strict Young Earth Creationism, insisting that the Scripture requires that the earth can not be more than 6,000 years old. Others, even among the YEC's say no, it can be as old as 10,000 years old. Other YEC's say that actual age of the earth is not an issue, just that it was all created in six literal days. Other literalists are Old Earth Creationists, either GAP theorists or Progressive Creationists.

TE's also share many beliefs about origins and vary in their beliefs about origins in the same way.

Now, why do YEC's differ in their beliefs about the details, just as TE's and OEC's differ in these details if we are all guided by the same Spirit? For EXACTLY the same reason as Christians differ in so many other areas of theology and Biblical interpretation: either they are not guided by the Spirit or the Spirit is allowing them to read things differently because it is not an essential issue.

Similarly, the point about beliefs involving areas outside of origins (Abraham, Moses, Christ, Paul, etc) are exactly the same reasons why there are differences among ALL Christians regarding these areas. You can't say that the differences among TE's in this area are any more significant regarding the guiding of the Holy Spirit than differences in these same areas among all Christians.

 

[Ben_Hur]

With regard to Martin Luther, even he made mistakes. It is my recolection that he wanted to exclude the books of James and Jude from the NT. I don't think your analogy holds.

And for some, focusing ON the teachings of the Bible is what drives them to old earth understanding. What about them?

Also, because there are ones who are standing for Biblical truth and Biblical teachings that are found only in the Bible doesn't mean they are the ones who are ruining Christianity.

This is to assume that old earth understanding is NOT found in the Bible which would be incorrect.

It is only ruining it if one believes that truths need a veil so all can be accepted. Amorality.

Are you saying that the scientific facts which point towards an old earth are a "veil?"

 

[GodSaves]

I am not addressing an old earth. I am addressing man evolving from a prehistoric ape. There are no accounts of this in the Bible. The Bible speaks of a different account then this.

To have a view that there is no right or wrong reading of the Bible is to believe in amorality. This is the veil over the truth that I am speaking of.

 

[Ben_Hur]

I am not addressing an old earth. I am addressing man evolving from a prehistoric ape. There are no accounts of this in the Bible. The Bible speaks of a different account then this.

Oops. I got mixed up about what thread I was on. Sorry. But about man evolving from apes, I'm not completely up on my evolution, but I don't even think evolutionists believe that. I thought it was just that we had a common ancestor - which was NOT an ape. I could be wrong.

There are also no accounts in the Bible of where poodles come from (developed through breeding), but that doesn't mean it didn't happen or even matters. Again, the point of the Bible is not the details of where humans come from. It is God's plan to seek and save the lost.

To have a view that there is no right or wrong reading of the Bible is to believe in amorality. This is the veil over the truth that I am speaking of.

That is a bit of a generalization, don't you think, that those that believe that evolution is a valid theory and has merit and a place in God's truth, also think that there is no right or wrong reading of the Bible?

 

[GodSaves]

What I have seen in here is that no one should speak against those who wish to read the Bible a certain way. Whether it be Genesis that is read allegorically or Jonah, Job, Micah, or even one of the Gospels. What I have seen happening is a push of tolerance. To be tolerant if one wishes to believe evolution. To be tolerant if one wishes to be believe there is no Abraham. To be tolerant if one wishes to believe there was no virgin birth.

Even though the virgin birth is covered in the Nicene Creed, it has been said in this forum here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t1117245-teism-provides-ammo-against-christianity.html&page=4

that it is not a salvation issue. You know the Nicene Creed covers the virgin birth in the second article called redemption.

 

[GodSaves]

Oh, no worries about the mix up. I do that all the time, lol.

 

[Didaskomenos]

As many have seen on this forum theistic evolutionists vary greatly in their beliefs in Christianity. Creationist's beliefs vary very little. We all think we are being guided by the Holy Spirit. So, if we are all being guided by the Holy Spirit why do you think the beliefs of those who believe in evolution are very different than another who believes in evolution? Why do you think creationist's beliefs vary very little compared to another creationist?

I think it's because creationists are of a strain of Christianity that regularizes and admits no variation of interpretation from an accepted standard. This brand of theology went from sola scriptura (only Scripture) to solum interpretatio nostrum scripturae (only our interpretation of Scripture). I truly wish everything were as clear-cut as your ilk demand that it must be for it to be inspired.

The fact is that it doesn't all fit so neatly into an obvious reading, but requires well-reasoned intepretation. Should we not expect that correct readings be harder to come by, given man's depravity and God's transcendence? I pray that the Kingdom will one day understand that we should not blindly accept the interpretation of the majority of some group (e.g. fundamentalists) taken from a surface reading of the complex Scriptures, given to the Church by a complex God; if not, maybe we'll get past it by loving God and one another like God loves us.

 

[GodSaves]

So as you stated creationists are obviously not being lead by the Holy Spirit. Are TE's then? If so then explain why there is a great variance of beliefs from Genesis through Revelations, even concerning Christ Himself.

Can you explain what well-reasoned interpretation means?

 

[Vance]

So as you stated creationists are obviously not being lead by the Holy Spirit. Are TE's then? If so then explain why there is a great variance of beliefs from Genesis through Revelations, even concerning Christ Himself.

I don't think anyone has said that creationists are not led by the Holy Spirit. When any two Christians who seek the Spirit's guidance come to different conclusions on matters of interpretation or doctrine, one of two things can be happening:

1. One of them is NOT properly open to the Spirit's guidance and, thus, comes to a wrong reading.

2. The Spirit is allowing different readings because the particular reading is not essential to salvation.

On the issue of origins, I would not say that YEC's fall into category 1, and I am absolutely confident that my TE view does not fall into category 1. So, it must be category 2.

If the Spirit can let Christians seeking it's guidance come to different conclusions on so many other matters, why would it not allow them to come to different conclusions on origins?

 

[GodSaves]

In another thread artybloke has said creationism is a lie created by Satan. So it has been said creationists are not being lead by the Holy Spirit, but rather by Satan.

Do you think the Bible has parts that are unimportant? WHy do you think God moved men to write the Scriptures, if only certain parts are important and other don't need a correct understanding?