Your best copy isn't what God wants.

aiki

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You've maybe heard the question, "What would Jesus do?" You can buy bracelets, t-shirts, bumperstickers and baseball caps with this question, in acronym form, on them (WWJD). The idea is that you figure out what Jesus would do and then you do that. Simple, right? That's the key to Christian living: Just copy Jesus. You'll never go wrong, if you do.

If you've lived for very long at all as a Christian - especially as one who is keen to live God's way - you'll have figured out that things in the Christian life aren't quite this simple. And if you've had a chance to really mature spiritually, you'll know that God doesn't want your best copy of what He has called you to as His child at all.

An important underlying assumption of the WWJD question is that the Christian life is, in essence, mimicry. But is this really what the Bible indicates? Is the Christian called by God merely to do his best, manufacturing a human copy of Christlikeness? Is God really satisfied with, or even the slightest bit interested in, how good a version of the life in Christ we can produce? The answer is "NO."

It might help in understanding what I'm getting at to think about what was necessary to making you a born-again child of God. What, exactly, did you do to deal with the curse and stain of sin that was upon you? How did you get rid of the burden of your sin that put you under God's holy judgment and wrath? Yes, you responded to the conviction and illumination of the Holy Spirit as you heard the truth of the Gospel that is the "power of God unto salvation," you humbled yourself under that truth, repenting of your godless living, confessing your sin and rebellion to God, and trusting in Christ as your Saviour and Lord. But, if Jesus had not died on the cross for your sins, if he had not paid the price God's holy justice required in payment for your sin, and if the Spirit had not acted to spiritually regenerate you, what use would your repentance, confession and belief have been? In fact, if Jesus had not done these things, you'd have no Gospel to which to respond and no salvation to receive.

On this head, I wrote the following for a discipleship course I teach at my church:

"It would seem the believer has very little to do in the process of being transformed by God. Mostly, the believer is receiving, remaining in and then reflecting the work of God in his life. He is like a man with a brain tumor who must receive the work of the brain surgeon to remove his tumor. The man cannot remove his own tumor; he can do nothing to aid the surgeon in extracting the tumor. The man just lies upon the operating table and waits on the surgeon to do what only the surgeon can do.

The man has first had to accept the diagnosis of a brain tumor, though, and agree to the surgery to remove it, trusting that the brain surgeon can perform the surgery well. Is the sick man not contributing, then, to his healing? Well, he is certainly making it possible for healing to occur. The actual removal of his tumor, however, is solely the work of the surgeon to accomplish. No degree of awareness of the tumor, or willingness to see it removed, or trust in the surgeon to remove it, does anything to free the man of his tumor. Only the surgeon, entirely apart from any direct, contributing effort of his patient, can extract the deadly mass from the patient’s brain. Again, in order to be free of his tumor, all the sick man can do is receive the healing work of the surgeon.

When the surgery is complete and the man is freed from the tumor and its fatal effects, he does not go about behaving as though he still has a brain tumor. The headaches, the nose bleeds, the vision loss, the cognitive impairment – these are all gone and it shows unavoidably in the living of the healed man. He does not pretend he is healed; he does not force himself to live free of the symptoms of his tumor; in a very natural, inevitable way, he reveals in his living the reality of his healed state.

In the same way, the man who has been freed of the “tumor” of sin by the Great Physician, cannot help but manifest this in his living. He does not need to act as though he is healed; he is healed and it will show unavoidably and inevitably in his life."

This is the very sort of circumstance under which a person is "saved," born-again into the family and kingdom of God. The lost man cannot save himself, he cannot be free of the "tumor" of sin, except the Great Physician removes it from him. Yes, the lost man must come to God for salvation, he must believe the diagnosis of the Gospel and its offered remedy and trust himself to the saving work of Christ, but, in the end, he can only receive the "spiritual surgery" necessary to save him from his sin, unable to add anything whatever to the work of the removal of his "sin-tumor."

In the same way, the saved person moves forward with God into the Christian life. The Christian isn't called by God to pretend he is saved, to merely act like Christ, to produce his best version or copy of a Christlike life anymore than the man healed of a fatal, cancerous tumor must act like he is, or pretend to be a healed man, or to create his best version of a tumor-free person.

Instead, in Scripture, God takes to Himself the responsibility for producing godliness in us:

1 Corinthians 1:7-9
7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.


Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.


Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.


Colossians 2:19
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.


Romans 8:11-13
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


1 Peter 5:10
10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself confirm, strengthen and establish you.


It is the Christian's "job," if you like, to receive the work of God in himself. Not produce it, not make up his best copy of the work of God, but simply to receive it.

The question, then, that the Christian should ask himself, isn't "What would Jesus do?" but, rather, "Am in a position to receive the work of God in my life?"
 
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public hermit

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The question, then, that the Christian should ask himself, isn't "What would Jesus do?" but, rather, "Am in a position to receive the work of God in my life?"

It is true that we are transformed by grace, the power of the Holy Spirit working in us. And, that this transformation cannot be simply manufactured at will.

But our Lord gave us a new commandment, to love just as he loved us (John 13:34; John 15:12). So, isn't it also true that we are to imitate his love, i.e. do as he did?
 
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mlepfitjw

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Love God with all your strength, all your soul, all your heart, and all your mind.

If a person places God first, accepting his love that was shed abroad in our hearts, as are character is being produced after being justified by faith in God with our living hope in trusting in him to have forgiven us by the Lord Jesus Christ dying on the cross, and being risen again. That same life giving spirit ; Spirit of God, Holy Spirit, Spirit of Christ ; dwells with-in the believer in accordance with their heart as they believe and trust God. This will bring forth fruit, to love others.

God can do this without scriptures; for it says God will write on their hearts, and He will be their God and they will be his people.



Loving others will flow through the spirit of the believer, which Love is defined as : Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

I agree with you on the reflection of their own life, and allowing God to renew and restore them as a new creation in Christ Jesus. The work of God is to believe on the one whom God has sent. With this being said, he will continue to do a mighty work with-in you as a believer the more you lean on him, than our own understanding and trust his ways.

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
 
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John Mullally

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We contribute to Romans 11:12-13 quoted by the OP, by considering ourselves dead.

Romans 6:11 So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.​

Fundamentally we are to be led by the Spirit of God. There are plenty of articles written on the subject of being led by the Spirit of God.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Side note. God is not going to do for us what he commanded us to do. We can certainly ask for his help and to make us willing. The "Jesus take the wheel" song is not scriptural. For example, in Ephesians 6:11-18 where he tells us to put on the whole Armor of God, it is something we do by faith.
 
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aiki

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It is true that we are transformed by grace, the power of the Holy Spirit working in us. And, that this transformation cannot be simply manufactured at will.

But our Lord gave us a new commandment, to love just as he loved us (John 13:34; John 15:12). So, isn't it also true that we are to imitate his love, i.e. do as he did?

Well, Jesus shows us where we're going, what it is God is aimed at in His transformation of us, but as Jesus said in John 15:5, "Without me you can do nothing." We can't get where God wants us to go. Not in-and-of ourselves.

So, do you think God wants us to love Him (and others) with our own sin-corrupted, selfish, contingent love, or with His own eternal, perfect, divine love? And if God wants us to love Him with His love, how do we obtain that love and reflect it back to Him (and to those around us)? Check out: Romans 5:5, Galatians 5:22, and 1 John 4:7.

Do the verses I offered above indicate that God intends we merely imitate His love? Or is it that God intends we reflect or manifest His love?
 
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aiki

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Love God with all your strength, all your soul, all your heart, and all your mind.

Yes. Matthew 22:36-38. Amen. Do you love God this way? If you do, how, exactly?

God can do this without scriptures; for it says God will write on their hearts, and He will be their God and they will be his people.

Are you sure about this? I don't think Scripture actually says what you are here...

The work of God is to believe on the one whom God has sent.

Is this the sum-total of God's work in His children and in the world through them? Or does Scripture indicate other things, too, as the work of God?

1 Corinthians 10:31
Matthew 5:16
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
 
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Aussie Pete

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It is true that we are transformed by grace, the power of the Holy Spirit working in us. And, that this transformation cannot be simply manufactured at will.

But our Lord gave us a new commandment, to love just as he loved us (John 13:34; John 15:12). So, isn't it also true that we are to imitate his love, i.e. do as he did?
The question is not so much what we are doing as the motivation and empowering of what we do. The first commandment trips up everyone. Who loves the Lord their God with all that they are? But if we allow Lord Jesus to live in place of us, all is pleasing to God, at least while we cooperate with the leading of the Holy Spirit. Our trying does not impress God one bit. He looks to see His Son, in whom He is well pleased. The question therefore is not, "Is this good?", rather, "Is this God?" If we are loving with God's love, which is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, all is well. If we are just trying our best, sorry, it's not good enough.
 
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aiki

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Actually, we are to imitate Christ. 1 Corinthians 11:1

Hmmm...Here's the verse in its larger context:

1 Corinthians 10:31-33
31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
32 Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;
33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved.

1 Corinthians 11:1
1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.


Verse 33 of chapter 10 is the immediate context giving rise to verse 1 of chapter 11. In respect to what, then, are the Corinthians to imitate Paul? In not giving offense to Jew or Greek, and not seeking their own profit but the profit of the many unsaved that they might be saved. In this respect, the Corinthian believers were urged by Paul to follow his example. And Paul acted as he did in this regard in emulation of the example of Christ which he explained to the Corinthians in order to give weight to his command to them in verse 1.

If, in 1 Corinthians 11:1, Paul was giving a general prescription for Christian living, was he not inserting himself as an intermediary figure between the believer and Christ? He doesn't say, after all, that the Corinthians ought to imitate Jesus, but, rather, himself. Are we to understand that the Christian life is actually lived first in emulation of Paul, then of Jesus? I don't think that's what Paul ever intended to communicate, do you?

As I showed in my OP, Paul has a great deal to say about how to live as a born-again believer, much of which defies the idea that mere imitation is the way to live as a Christian. Romans 6, 7 and 8 challenge this notion pretty directly and powerfully. There are, too, all those places in Scripture where God clearly, explicitly takes to Himself the responsibility for transforming us, some examples of which I cited in my OP. What of them in relation to the idea of merely imitating Christ via Paul?
 
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RDKirk

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When the surgery is complete and the man is freed from the tumor and its fatal effects, he does not go about behaving as though he still has a brain tumor. The headaches, the nose bleeds, the vision loss, the cognitive impairment – these are all gone and it shows unavoidably in the living of the healed man. He does not pretend he is healed; he does not force himself to live free of the symptoms of his tumor; in a very natural, inevitable way, he reveals in his living the reality of his healed state.

Actually...he might. He might very well continue living as though he were still ill even if he doesn't actually feel the effects of his former illness.

When I was miraculously healed of a debilitating back injury, it was some time before I thoroughly excised all the little "back favoring" habits I'd accumulated through the time of pain.

That happens a great deal of the time. People often need therapy after the procedure--both physical and psychological--to begin living as fully healed.

Otherwise, most of Paul's letters would have been unnecessary.
 
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You've maybe heard the question, "What would Jesus do?" You can buy bracelets, t-shirts, bumperstickers and baseball caps with this question, in acronym form, on them (WWJD). The idea is that you figure out what Jesus would do and then you do that. Simple, right? That's the key to Christian living: Just copy Jesus. You'll never go wrong, if you do.

If you've lived for very long at all as a Christian - especially as one who is keen to live God's way - you'll have figured out that things in the Christian life aren't quite this simple. And if you've had a chance to really mature spiritually, you'll know that God doesn't want your best copy of what He has called you to as His child at all.

An important underlying assumption of the WWJD question is that the Christian life is, in essence, mimicry. But is this really what the Bible indicates? Is the Christian called by God merely to do his best, manufacturing a human copy of Christlikeness? Is God really satisfied with, or even the slightest bit interested in, how good a version of the life in Christ we can produce? The answer is "NO."

It might help in understanding what I'm getting at to think about what was necessary to making you a born-again child of God. What, exactly, did you do to deal with the curse and stain of sin that was upon you? How did you get rid of the burden of your sin that put you under God's holy judgment and wrath? Yes, you responded to the conviction and illumination of the Holy Spirit as you heard the truth of the Gospel that is the "power of God unto salvation," you humbled yourself under that truth, repenting of your godless living, confessing your sin and rebellion to God, and trusting in Christ as your Saviour and Lord. But, if Jesus had not died on the cross for your sins, if he had not paid the price God's holy justice required in payment for your sin, and if the Spirit had not acted to spiritually regenerate you, what use would your repentance, confession and belief have been? In fact, if Jesus had not done these things, you'd have no Gospel to which to respond and no salvation to receive.

WWJD? Jesus would teach how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law by word and by example, and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to live God's way, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others. As followers of Christ, we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), to be imitators of Paul as he is of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1), and to love one another in the same way he loved us (John 13:34).

A chip off of the old block is someone who has the same nature or character as their father, and the Son is essence of that phrase because he is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, and it is through partaking in the divine nature that we are born again as children of God (2 Peter 1:1-12). In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so our obedience to it has always been about putting our faith in Christ and has never been about depending on ourselves.

On this head, I wrote the following for a discipleship course I teach at my church:

"It would seem the believer has very little to do in the process of being transformed by God. Mostly, the believer is receiving, remaining in and then reflecting the work of God in his life. He is like a man with a brain tumor who must receive the work of the brain surgeon to remove his tumor. The man cannot remove his own tumor; he can do nothing to aid the surgeon in extracting the tumor. The man just lies upon the operating table and waits on the surgeon to do what only the surgeon can do.

The man has first had to accept the diagnosis of a brain tumor, though, and agree to the surgery to remove it, trusting that the brain surgeon can perform the surgery well. Is the sick man not contributing, then, to his healing? Well, he is certainly making it possible for healing to occur. The actual removal of his tumor, however, is solely the work of the surgeon to accomplish. No degree of awareness of the tumor, or willingness to see it removed, or trust in the surgeon to remove it, does anything to free the man of his tumor. Only the surgeon, entirely apart from any direct, contributing effort of his patient, can extract the deadly mass from the patient’s brain. Again, in order to be free of his tumor, all the sick man can do is receive the healing work of the surgeon.

When the surgery is complete and the man is freed from the tumor and its fatal effects, he does not go about behaving as though he still has a brain tumor. The headaches, the nose bleeds, the vision loss, the cognitive impairment – these are all gone and it shows unavoidably in the living of the healed man. He does not pretend he is healed; he does not force himself to live free of the symptoms of his tumor; in a very natural, inevitable way, he reveals in his living the reality of his healed state.

In the same way, the man who has been freed of the “tumor” of sin by the Great Physician, cannot help but manifest this in his living. He does not need to act as though he is healed; he is healed and it will show unavoidably and inevitably in his life."

This is the very sort of circumstance under which a person is "saved," born-again into the family and kingdom of God. The lost man cannot save himself, he cannot be free of the "tumor" of sin, except the Great Physician removes it from him. Yes, the lost man must come to God for salvation, he must believe the diagnosis of the Gospel and its offered remedy and trust himself to the saving work of Christ, but, in the end, he can only receive the "spiritual surgery" necessary to save him from his sin, unable to add anything whatever to the work of the removal of his "sin-tumor."

In the same way, the saved person moves forward with God into the Christian life. The Christian isn't called by God to pretend he is saved, to merely act like Christ, to produce his best version or copy of a Christlike life anymore than the man healed of a fatal, cancerous tumor must act like he is, or pretend to be a healed man, or to create his best version of a tumor-free person.

Instead, in Scripture, God takes to Himself the responsibility for producing godliness in us:

1 Corinthians 1:7-9
7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.


Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.


Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.


Colossians 2:19
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.


Romans 8:11-13
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


1 Peter 5:10
10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself confirm, strengthen and establish you.


It is the Christian's "job," if you like, to receive the work of God in himself. Not produce it, not make up his best copy of the work of God, but simply to receive it.

The question, then, that the Christian should ask himself, isn't "What would Jesus do?" but, rather, "Am in a position to receive the work of God in my life?"

The Bible describes our salvation as having past, present, and future aspects, so we have been saved from the penalty of our sins (Ephesians 2:8), we are being saving from continuing to practice sin (Philippians 2:12), and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9-10), so your analogy is good insofar at it helps to understand the past aspect, but is not good insofar as it denies the present aspect of our salvation. To use an analogy for the present aspect, if a professional musician were to teach me how to play an instrument as a gift to me, then their lessons would themselves be the content of their gift, which would require my active participation in order to receive it, but that would not be doing anything to earn their gift.

The present aspect of our salvation is the same sort of gift where it requires our active participation in order to receive training, as we are being made to be more like a copy of Christ. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law (1 John 3:4), so being trained by grace to obey the Mosaic Law through faith is what it looks like to receive the gift of Jesus saving us from continuing to live in transgression of the Mosaic Law.



Your analogy is good insofar
 
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aiki

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Actually...he might. He might very well continue living as though he were still ill even if he doesn't actually feel the effects of his former illness.

That happens a great deal of the time. People often need therapy after the procedure--both physical and psychological--to begin living as fully healed.

Otherwise, most of Paul's letters would have been unnecessary.

Do they often need this sort of post-surgery? Interesting. Can you show me some data on this?

If an alternate sort of surgery would navigate around this complication to the point of the analogy I gave, I can certainly offer one. How about an appendectomy, instead? I know several people who would have died without an appendectomy, but having had it, they went on to live without lingering after-effects of the ruptured appendix that prompted the surgery. This works just as well in my analogy - perhaps better, if your claims are true - as brain surgery does.

Paul's letters are rife with chiding and upbraiding of his readers.

Romans 6:1-3
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.


2 Corinthians 13:5
5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?


Galatians 1:6
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;


Ephesians 4:19-20
19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
20 But you did not learn Christ in this way,


And so on.

Paul clearly expected understanding and living very different from what he often observed in his readers. But why have such an expectation if, as you suggest, it's normal for a person "healed" of sin to live still as though they aren't?
 
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aiki

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WWJD? Jesus would teach how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law by word and by example, and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to live God's way, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others. As followers of Christ, we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), to be imitators of Paul as he is of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1), and to love one another in the same way he loved us (John 13:34).

None of this engages at all with the points I made, or the verses I cited in support of them. And so, I'm not going to respond to any of this.

The Bible describes our salvation as having past, present, and future aspects, so we have been saved from the penalty of our sins (Ephesians 2:8), we are being saving from continuing to practice sin (Philippians 2:12), and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9-10), so your analogy is good insofar at it helps to understand the past aspect, but is not good insofar as it denies the present aspect of our salvation.

Actually, I was intending to carry on with my OP, adding more to it in explanation of how God transforms His children. Unfortunately, this thread has attracted, not new believers, but a bunch of veteran CF posters who have crowded onto this thread to toss in their two cents. I had hoped, this being the New Believer subforum, of speaking to and with new believers, not a bunch of bored theological "axe-grinders" (mostly, though not entirely) who seem only to want to muddy the waters for any new believer who might venture into the thread.

We have been saved from the penalty of sin, from its power, and, in the end, from its presence. But being transformed by God is not our work, but God's. As I said in my OP, the believer's "job" is threefold: receive the work of God, remain in the truth of that work, and reflect that work in practical, daily living. This is how the Christian participates with God in His transformation of them.

Who does the changing of the believer? God.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.


Colossians 2:18-23
18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"
22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.


1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.


Only God can make a person godly. Like begets like. God's goal isn't merely to help you produce a pale, weak copy of Himself, but to form Himself in you by His power, by filling you up with Himself and emptying you of the "old man," Self. And when He has, your imitation of Christ will not be an imitation, but the real thing, Christ communicating himself through you.

The keys to our divine transformation are found, I believe, in Romans 6: identification and submission. I hope to explain in another post - for new believers - what I mean.
 
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mlepfitjw

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Luke chapter 10:
“One day an expert in religious law stood up to test Jesus by asking him this question: “Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus replied, “What does the law of Moses say?

How do you read it?” The man answered, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.’ And, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” “Right!” Jesus told him. “Do this and you will live!”

The man wanted to justify his actions, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” Jesus replied with a story: “A Jewish man was traveling from Jerusalem down to Jericho, and he was attacked by bandits. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him up, and left him half dead beside the road. “By chance a priest came along. But when he saw the man lying there, he crossed to the other side of the road and passed him by.

A Temple assistant walked over and looked at him lying there, but he also passed by on the other side. “Then a despised Samaritan came along, and when he saw the man, he felt compassion for him.

Going over to him, the Samaritan soothed his wounds with olive oil and wine and bandaged them. Then he put the man on his own donkey and took him to an inn, where he took care of him.

The next day he handed the innkeeper two silver coins, telling him, ‘Take care of this man. If his bill runs higher than this, I’ll pay you the next time I’m here.’

“Now which of these three would you say was a neighbor to the man who was attacked by bandits?” Jesus asked. The man replied, “The one who showed him mercy.” Then Jesus said, “Yes, now go and do the same.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭10:25-37‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Here is the answer to your question on how one loves God with all their mind, strength, heart, soul, and love their neighbor as yourself, along with the actions that follow when you do love God with all your strength, all your mind, all your heart, all your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.
 
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Soyeong

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None of this engages at all with the points I made, or the verses I cited in support of them. And so, I'm not going to respond to any of this.

You spoke in regard to the WWJD and in regard to living in God's way, so I spoke in regard to how that should be understood.

Actually, I was intending to carry on with my OP, adding more to it in explanation of how God transforms His children. Unfortunately, this thread has attracted, not new believers, but a bunch of veteran CF posters who have crowded onto this thread to toss in their two cents. I had hoped, this being the New Believer subforum, of speaking to and with new believers, not a bunch of bored theological "axe-grinders" (mostly, though not entirely) who seem only to want to muddy the waters for any new believer who might venture into the thread.

"For New Christians forum is a place for New Christians to ask questions and get answers, encouragement, and support from other Christian members." So the intent of this subforum is not a place to direct posts at new Christians to discuss among themselves, but a place where veteran Christians can help new Christians.

We have been saved from the penalty of sin, from its power, and, in the end, from its presence. But being transformed by God is not our work, but God's. As I said in my OP, the believer's "job" is threefold: receive the work of God, remain in the truth of that work, and reflect that work in practical, daily living. This is how the Christian participates with God in His transformation of them.

Your analogy spoke about salvation as being a specific point where God did surgery and that spoke about how we are to live as a result of what God did, but that is still part of our ongoing salvation. And you spoke against copying Christ, but that is what we are supposed to do.

Who does the changing of the believer? God.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.


Colossians 2:18-23
18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"
22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.


1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.


Only God can make a person godly. Like begets like. God's goal isn't merely to help you produce a pale, weak copy of Himself, but to form Himself in you by His power, by filling you up with Himself and emptying you of the "old man," Self. And when He has, your imitation of Christ will not be an imitation, but the real thing communicating himself through you.

The keys to our divine transformation are found, I believe, in Romans 6: identification and submission. I hope to explain in another post - for new believers - what I mean.

While I agree that it is God who changes us, it nevertheless still involves our active participation. God is perfectly capable of giving instructions that teach us how to do the real thing.
 
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Active participation comes from the will. To be willing one must place themselves in the position to lean on God’s understanding and not our own. When a shadow is the example the willingness can only take us to the spiritual application or remain in human understanding. Guidance for such is not found in the letter or there would not have been another example given that corresponds to a further understanding. Christ in the order of Melchezedec is the further fulfillment that leads to the Father. Paul’s shadow in most of his epistles are like an intermediate between the shadow and substance that doesn’t stop at human understanding but is directed to accomplish what it was sent for. Human reasoning can build a structure but it falls short on reasoning God’s intent.
 
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Here is the answer to your question on how one loves God with all their mind, strength, heart, soul, and love their neighbor as yourself, along with the actions that follow when you do love God with all your strength, all your mind, all your heart, all your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.

I had a conversation with a young man a few weeks ago about what he meant by "love God." He gave the usual answer Christians are trained to give: obedience. That's love. I pointed out that it's possible to be very obedient without being loving. The Pharisees, for example, were professionally "obedient," keeping the law extremely carefully, and honoring God with their lips, but Jesus said of them that their hearts were far from God (Matthew 15:1-9). I suggested to the young man that obedience and love were not exactly the same thing, but that the latter gives rise to the former and could be distinguished from it. Jesus makes this point to his disciples in John 14:

John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.


Here, Jesus predicated the keeping of his commands by his disciples upon the fact that they loved him. This suggests that love is not mere obedience, doing good deeds, but is something else that produces these things. My question to the young man was, "So, what is this 'love' that is reflected in our obedience to God?" He couldn't tell me. He had always thought that love of God was just doing what God said.

I went to the words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.


Here, Paul explained that no matter what one might say, or know, or do - even to the point of self-destitution or martyrdom - if love (first for God and then other people) does not ground these things, then they are of no value. This, too, indicates that love is not what I do, or know, or say, but something else that is supposed to be expressed in or through these things. And if it isn't, Paul says "It profits me nothing" that I have spoken, or expressed great faith, or died a martyr's death.

It's easy to appear to love God if one makes obedience what love is. Many are those in church on Sunday who seem to love God - they're in church, after all - giving money, singing hymns, maybe even teaching a Sunday School class, but whose hearts are cold toward God, set instead upon themselves and the things they really love: hobbies, money, relationships, clothing, cars, sports, sex, food, etc. This is in part why it is so dangerous to make love for God and obedience to Him identical. Such thinking lends itself very easily to the hypocrisy of the Pharisees.

I went to the Psalms to show the young man what God means by "love" for Him.

Psalm 42:1-2
1 As the deer pants for the water brooks, So my soul pants for You, O God.
2 My soul thirsts for God, for the living God; When shall I come and appear before God?


Psalm 63:1
1 O God, You are my God; I shall seek You earnestly; My soul thirsts for You, my flesh yearns for You, In a dry and weary land where there is no water.


Psalm 84:2
2 My soul longed and even yearned for the courts of the LORD; My heart and my flesh sing for joy to the living God.


"Longing," "yearning," "thirsting" - these words express what it means to really love God. At its core, love for God is about desiring Him and doing so above all else, with such fervor that we will set all else aside, if we must, to satisfy our desire for Him. It is this intense longing for God, this yearning for Him, that is supposed to drive our obedience to Him. And when it is, obedience to God is a joy, a delight, never a burden or mere onerous obligation.

When I had finished explaining this to the young man, he was silent for some time and then confessed that he didn't have anything like this sort of love for God. He's not alone. I was at one time, in my younger days, the same. How about you? Do you desire God above all else? Do you pant after God like a thirsty deer pants for water?
 
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