Your argument against "many paths to God"

[Ed1wolf]

I never said the Word of God is full of errors or incomplete. The canon is written by humans, which we trust is (overall) the inspired word of God. Making an image of the bible itself is faulty - which is what many churches like to do. The book itself is not sacred - it is paper and ink.

You are right, it is not the book/bible itself that is sacred, it is the MESSAGE contained within.

yi: The Word of God - by the New COvenant - is already in your heart; you dont have to ask your neighbor, or consult a book, concerning the things of God. He, and His word are already in your heart. Through sin and ignorance we dampen that influence of the Holy Spirit, but if you were stuck on an island and you were a Christian, you should be able to fully know God with no need of a canon.

No, even though the Holy spirit IS in our hearts, we also still have a sin nature within our hearts fighting against the holy spirit so we need the refreshment of His written word to battle against our sin nature which will try to justify our sin when we commit one. So the Holy Spirit speaks to us thru His Word and helps us to interpret it correctly though our interpretation will never be perfect or infallible, but the text itself IS infallible. Yes, we can fully know Him on an island but our sinful nature will still be working on us to justify our sin and cause us to sin. And in rare cases we can be tempted by Satan to do the same thing. But mostly it is our sin nature which will not be completely destroyed until we go to heaven after death though it will become gradually weaker as we spiritually grow stronger over time. And we need our fellow believers to help us to grow as "iron sharpens iron".

yi: Most Churches accept the canonical authority of the religion. The Word of God itself is rejected - in many parts - based on doctrine. Where, for example, does God stipulate that we can follow only nine of the ten commandments?

No, orthodox Churches accept the canonical authority of His written Word. Gods word is where we get correct doctrine. Doctrine just means teaching. Christian doctrine is the teachings of Christ and His word. Good churches at least try to follow all 10 commandments, like my church, of course, no church is perfect, except maybe yours. ;-)

yi: It would do well for everyone to understand that YOU (self) - no one else - determines the trajectory of your (self) soul. If another human contradicts [the Word of] God, then that human is wrong, or a liar depending on the circumstances. The type of twisting of the word of God to fit times is not new; scholarly support of such a thing is not new. Christ spent a lot of time chastising the same temporal analogues of theology - the Pharisees. (Of course, back then they were culturally the "scholars" and leaders of the time.)

No, there are false teachers/leaders and true teachers/scholars/leaders. And as long as you stay in His Word and study it deeply and often the holy spirit can show who they are. Or God may call you to become one of His leaders/scholars or elders in the church. The Pharisees were false teachers and leaders. You are right anyone who contradicts Gods word is wrong or a liar or ignorant.

yi: One last time, and I open this up to anyone who can show this:

Just as explicitly as God told Moses His commands - and His language is present and clear in the canon - show me one place where God or Christ says that we have the authority to reject or fail to follow any of His laws. If you cant give an example of this, then it may do well to stop spreading it to other new and/or founded Christians. ​

See my previous posts how Christ has taught us that some laws have become obsolete.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

See my previous posts how Christ has taught us that some laws have become obsolete.

Reread this statement, and ask yourself if you really believe this.

Does this even sound like a characteristic of Christ - informing us that parts of Him are obsolete?

He is the literal living word of God, and the same One who gave the Law to Moses.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Now that is something we can sort of agree on - that the ceremonial laws are fulfilled in Christ. However, I would argue that they are still in effect - their purpose has been fulfilled through Christ as the perfect sacrifice. All of the sacrifices before Him were foreshadowings; the Abraham-Isaac interaction was an on the nose prophecy of Christ - especially since God gave Abraham a ram ensnared/prepared for slaughter.

But this is what I mean: God explicitly told us that He was tired of our vain oblations, and our Sabbaths because we were hypocrites. The law was still in effect, but even God said stop giving vain oblation. We would look forward to "BBQ" instead of retarding our sinful ways. We made the sacrifices moot to us because of our iniquity and sin. But, they are still applicable, and always will be.

Not sure what you mean by "still applicable". God told the Hebrews their sacrifices were vain because they had always been just a symbol of dying to oneself and truly repenting of your sin, but the Hebrews were not doing that. They were an external symbol of an internal reality. Just like baptism.

yi: (This is an especially important point to recognize, seeing as some entity will begin the daily sacrifice so that it can be stopped.)

Not sure what you are saying here.

yi: The law is still in effect; the sacrifice is just Perfect this time. This was explicit from The Word of God. Even the Justice laws are still in effect - but if you believe Christ is alive, and Christ is King, then only He has authority to execute judgment. People who try to execute judgment when the King has declared mercy are treasonous.

Not sure exactly what you are referring to as the Justice laws. If you are referring to the Civil Laws then yes they are still in effect except most of the punishments only applied to the old Hebrew theocracy. Only the command to use the death penalty for first degree murder is still in effect.

yi: The Word of God even says that in the future the saints will be judges - under what codex will these saints judge? Under the codex of the unchanging and everlasting Word of God that never changes.

That text is referring to judgements in heaven made to determine what certain people's rewards will be in heaven. If you are referring to the text I think you are. Otherwise you need to provide the verse you are referring to.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Being inspired by the Holy Spirit is not the same as the Holy Spirit itself. I am aware of the relationship between the Holy Spirit, God and Christ. However, just because a human is inspired by the Holy Spirit does not automatically make everything s/he says and does right. That is a fact, not opinion.

True, except when certain things he has written are chosen by God to be a written revelation from Him. Then those things are protected from error by His Spirit.

yi: Moses was in direct communication with God (a foreshadowing to the gift of the Holy Spirit), and he still did things during his ministry that were not things the Holy Spirit would do (or command.) One specific thing kept him from entering the promised land.

Yes, and the only way we know Moses did those things is because God commanded him to write them down and God protected them from error when recording those events so we know what happened and is confirmed by the HS to be words from God.

yi: Jonah was directed by God to prophesy to Nineveh, and despite being a prophet he chose to fight the will of God until he was forced to submit.

True, but we would not know this except that God inspired and chose the writer of the book of Jonah to record it inerrantly for inclusion

yi: Peter denied Christ three time, and He was in the presence of the Word of God Itself.

True, but we would not have known this if God had not chosen Mark to infallibly write the memoirs of Peter to be included in His written communication to mankind.

yi: God is no joke; He demands perfection even in humans. We have an Advocate - who is [the Word of] God Himself - to, on our behalf, say, "C'mon Dad give em a pass... I went through it and [x-righteous thing here] is harder for humans than it is for "Us" (Elohim.)" But, that Advocate doesn't mean we get free-rein to break whatever law we have chosen as a culture that is not applicable to our lives. That is supremely dangerous for one's spirit, don't you think?

Yes, that is right but the ceremonial laws, ie sacrificial and dietary laws and etc have been made obsolete when Christ fulfilled them.

yi: The canon is - at best - a compilation of texts concerning the Most High God and his basic requirements. It is in no way the absolute end-all-be-all perfect collection of texts. The amount of politics that went into making the canon alone disqualifies the canon as a pure piece of inspirational work by men concerning God. Men put their will into the addition and removal of books, words and resources.

Evidence for this? There is no evidence that politics had anything to do with the formation of the canon. The laity of the church had been using the canon hundreds of years before it was made official by the holy spirit guided leaders of church.

yi: Yet, and still, The Most High God never told any of us - in the canon or apocrypha - that He would allow us to pick and choose what law to follow, that He Himself said any of His law is no longer applicable, or that His law is conditional based on genetics or respect. Never.

No, the fulfillment of the ceremonial law were commanded by God and Christ as I have shown above.

yi: In fact, the Apocryphal books (beyond Enoch) constantly talk about the Christ, and His advent that birthed Christianity. Not one of the books ever hints that the Most High God allows us to follow some of His laws based on conditions. The Ancient of Days (Christ) never says this. When He came to the planet and ministered He said that the law would never be changed until heaven and earth pass (which is also never; earth puts on new garments, it doesn't go away.)

I have to disqualify any human that contradicts God, because His spirit poured on someone won't contradict Him. I don't care how much inspiration they claim to have: if they contradict God then they are liars. It is very simple.

The writers of the Bible did not claim the inspiration themselves, it was revealed that they were inspired by the Holy Spirit Himself directly to the Church.

yi: Any entity saying that God says we don't have to follow all of His laws as an obedient child of God who loves Him is erroneous - when Christ and God throughout the canon say that if you love God, you will keep His commandments. That means all of them. If you can show where Christ said that we only have to follow some laws for some condition, then I am all ears. But, just know that the "...in these two are contained the entire law of God" is because 1) if you love God, you will do what He says (Commandment 1-4, anything that begins with a command) and 2) if you love your neighbor like you love yourself, then you won't steal from them, enslave them more than 7 years without debt forgiveness, they won't rape someone, etc.

I want to know where God/Christ say explicitly that we can conditionally follow any of His laws? IF you cannot tell me other than implications from prophets, then with respect I reject those completely. I would like to see it from the Horses' Mouth.

The Prophets that were chosen by God to write down His one and only written revelation WERE the very Mouth of GOD for that period that they wrote the canonical books. And you have no evidence to believe otherwise.

 

[miknik5]

How would you persuade somebody who seeks God that Christianity is either the best way or the only way (without simply quoting from Christian sources that the other person doesn't yet accept)?

Because if Christ came specifically to die for sin then a man without Christ will stand before God claiming he was perfect and had no need for Christ

Which is a foolish thing to do

 

[miknik5]

with regards to the truth of the gospel, a person born of, led by, inspired by the Holy Spirit stands as a witness to the truth

They mat not be perfect but when it comes to speaking the truth of Christ, they are speaking the truth regardless of the imperfection of their vessel (flesh/body)

 

[Ed1wolf]

Paul, Peter, Luke, Moses, Noah, Enoch, David, Solomon, Elijah, Elias, Joshua (Moses' successor, not Christ,) etc. are not holy spirits. The deification of the humans, and the marginalization of God's actual word is dangerous.

Nobody is saying that they are holy spirits but some of them were chosen by the Holy spirit to write down God's word.

yi: The men are the ministers/messengers speaking on behalf of God. But, they are not God themselves. They are not angelic holy hosts. They were prophets and messengers.

Correct, and the words that they proclaimed and were written down are the very WORDs of God and are infallible.

yi: And yes, the only words that matter are what God said - directly from Him. Are you really going to tell me that you also follow humans as if you would follow God? Do you put as much faith - or more in the words of these men (who are actually just regurgitating what God has always said?)

All the words in the Canonical bible ARE directly what God said thru His chosen human mouthpiece. Even the words you claim are directly what God said were written down by humans. You do know that don't you?

yi: However, by the New Covenant, you don't even have to worry about splitting spiritual hairs between the men of the bible. The Word of God is written on the hearts of men now - along with the conviction of the Holy Spirit. You no longer need to go to a prophet, or minister to learn the word of God. His spirit poured out will provide the conviction and teaching you need.

This is serious business; where is your foundation if it isn't the Word of God first?

My foundation and most Christians foundations have always been the Word of God, ALL of it. Not just the parts that you arbitrarily say are His word because the verse says "Lord God says..."
Because even those were written down by a human so there ARE NO direct Words as you say.

yi: They are speaking on God's behalf; however, you are mixing up the compilation of the canon of the bible with the context of the bible script. Politics of Christian history is enough to firmly say that the canon is not the complete word of God, and its creation was due to squelching and ecumenical agenda. Here, you are arguing which prophet to follow when humans have been manipulating the canonical word of God, while telling people it is the infallible word of God. The book is not holy; His words are - and they are HIS words - not another human.

What politics of Christian history? The canon was established long before it was officially recognized by the church leaders by the use of the ordinary HS guided believers.