you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

[christianmomof3]

i dont think anyone would base unity on which direction you face when praying. im talking about stuff like salvation, baptism, eucharist, ecclesiology, etc

... who has the correct doctrines are of course a whole nother issue.

There is an older brother at my church who was ordained as a Baptist minister when he was a young man.
He spent a lot of time arguing about the differences in doctrine with Christians in other groups when he was young.
Then, he joined the marines and was in combat.
He said that he learned there that who had the "correct doctrines" did not matter.
What matters is Christ.
And he enjoyed fellowship with all the Christians who he was with in the military regardless of which religious group they were members of.
Yes baptism is important.
But, it should not divide the Body of Christ.

 

[Uphill Battle]

UB with all respect ....what is your point? your thread is just that 'we do not like it" and I think instead of "arguing" would be best of starting agreeing as to where the truth must lay.....because not all opinions can be right.. that is obvious. if you want to dish the baby along with the bath water....go ahead do it... but do not come back pointing out your finger... at EO for it....

the original point of the thread was to discuss the problem I have, and the rejection of liturgical style service. It degraded by the end of page 1 into a face slapping contest.

 

[Philothei]

which direction you should face when you pray and many other doctrines that people often argue about do not affect our salvation.....


???? wether Christ is God or man does matter though and I do not see that hapening with mormons....

 

[Philothei]

is it like GT... but tell me what you have against the Liturgical "style" of the EO?

 

[Uphill Battle]

is it like GT... but tell me what you have against the Liturgical "style" of the EO?

I'm not getting in to it again. I'm not looking forward to another 700 posts worth off hair pulling.

 

[Philothei]

If Chrsit comes down right this moment would he care more about whether or not you liked the STYLE or the actual eucarist? me thinks the latter... Do we do as he "commanded" us partaking of his Holy Eucarist? partaking and believing we eat his flesh and drink his blood ?? are we doing what he instructed us to do?

Is our assembly pure and free of hate for each other.... that is what would matter.....IMO not whether you liked "the style" ....Christianity is not about styles ... .fashion is.

 

[Uphill Battle]

If Chrsit comes down right this moment would he care more about whether or not you liked the STYLE or the actual eucarist? me thinks the latter... Do we do as he "commanded" us partaking of his Holy Eucarist? partaking and believing we eat his flesh and drink his blood ?? are we doing what he instructed us to do?

Is our assembly pure and free of hate for each other.... that is what would matter.....IMO not whether you liked "the style" ....Christianity is not about styles ... .fashion is.

except, of course, non of us non-RCC or non EO can actually do that. Even if we DO believe in the body and blood change from Bread and Wine, ours is "invalid" and we aren't actually getting it.

 

[Philothei]

As much as I want to say yes it is the true blood and flesh I have to say I do not know... Some Fahters do leave that an open ended question UB... Believe me I do not think that we want to exclude anyone from the Lord's supper... The majority of the Fathers do say that true communion should be there for the manifestation of the True Church... There has to be apostolic succession but then again IMO I do not see my proterstant brothers as "not christian" if they are only lacking that... God in his mercy would judge acconrdingly I only know that I am a sinner.

Forgive me.

Philothei

 

[GenemZ]

I
Paul preached it "Go your own way Corinthians" he said, "Trust the Holy Spirit". He told the Hebrews "Don't listen to the authorities".


Ah, freedom! Are you free of Christ? Do you resist God's commandments? No? Did this make you less free?

What happened was that arrogance built up in the church. It needed breaking away from for those who could see the truth. Peter warned that the established church would become corrupted down the road.

2 Peter 2:1-3 (New International Version)
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves."

​

.



Of course, each side will accuse the same of the other. But, do not act like what we see today was not supposed to happen. Don't you read your Bible?

2 Timothy 4:3 (New International Version)
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."
​

If you be the true church? You should be glad that God purged you of the burden of having to watch over all those who want only to rebel.

You should not be wanting them back in. God did you a favor, and you can not even see it. That is.. if you really have the truth, and all the truth.

I will ask my question again.

Does your denomination believe that Jesus was born with a sin nature? A sin nature that he overcame?


In Christ, GeneZ




.

 

[GenemZ]

:o
No

Well, then. Some in your own denomination do not agree with you. I have been told by EO moderators in the past, that the EO position is that Jesus could only be tempted because he was born like us in every way.. with a sin nature. But, that he never sinned.

You are not aware of this teaching? Then your own denomination is not in unity. Or, perhaps, you should check out your church's official stand on this issue.



In Christ, GeneZ

.
​

 

[WarriorAngel]

This is what i am saying...
Someone HAS TO BE RIGHT!

Because of the words of Christ 'the gates of hell shall not prevail' means that Church would be here for every generation, and that Church would not teach error, and they would be the same Church instituted that very day by Christ.

NOW...if you say you love truth and you want truth because it will nourish you like no other...then you must recognise that that Church must exist, does exist, and the doctrines are still with us the same as the day the Holy Spirit descended on the men who preached it.

The Holy Spirit doesn't change, and He is capable [as God] to keep everything on track.

If you agree that St John & St Paul belong in scriptures, and you agree they had the Holy Spirit to write scriptures, then you must agree with htem when they tell us;

2 Corinthians 11
3 But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted, and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom we have not preached; or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel which you have not received; you might well bear with him.

...and...
13 For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.


Galatians 1
6 I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel.

Galatians 1
7 Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.


Acts Of Apostles 2
42 And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers.




Romans 6
17 But thanks be to God, that you were the servants of sin, but have obeyed from the heart, unto that form of doctrine, into which you have been delivered.


Romans 16
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them.

1 Corinthians 2
13 Which things also we speak, not in the learned words of human wisdom; but in the doctrine of the Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 John 4
6 We are of God. He that knoweth God, heareth us. He that is not of God, heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1 John 2
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us; but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us.

 

[WarriorAngel]

[bible]1 John 2:19[/bible]

 

[christianmomof3]

It is better to be livingly wrong than to be dead right.
I don't think Christ is looking for "right" people, but for those who love Him with all their heart, soul and mind.
I don't think anyone has to be right.
Only Christ is right.
I think we have to be found in Christ and that is what matters.
We need to be those who are pursuing Him always.
We need to be those who always rejoice, unceasingly pray and in everything give thanks.

 

[E.C.]

But without leaders, there wouldn't be anyone to lead us into heresy. The more trust you place in some priest to understand things for you, the less you trust in the Spirit to teach us all things, as Paul suggests.

So, instead of having bad leaders that may lead us into heresy, we should lead ourselves into heresy?

I'd prefer the bad leaders. Less people going to hell that way.

I trust my priest to do what is his job as a priest: distribute Communion and oversee the spiritual well-being of the parish. The way you post here, you make it sound like we're all a building full of mindless drones that can't breath without permission.

That is not so. Come to an Orthodox church and see for yourself.

BTW, do you think the teachings of your church are infallible?

If by infallible you mean that I believe them to be true? The answer there is yes, or else I would not be Orthodox, would it?

I found Orthodoxy with no outside help (with the exception of God) I never visited a parish and was told by the priest or any other person there that my salvation was in danger, I was following the path of evil or that I was the scum of the earth because I was (at the time) Roman Catholic. Sure, the Orthodox Church's official position is that Roman Catholicism and Protestantism are both "in error" and both have "strayed from the path", but that does not mean that Orthodox Christians are taught to hate and guilt those that are either Roman Catholic or Protestant.
If any are, than the bishop is notified.

well if the Church that the Apostles became corrupted and change its beliefs then its no longer the same Church. then the true Church of the Apostles would be dead.

I wonder when Protestants and others will figure out that. Or when they'll figure out that if that were so, than they would have nothing to "return" to.

Our unity is in Christ, not in agreeing on every theological detail.

What? We don't need to agree on every theological detail?

Not even Christological?


Well, in that case, hurray for Arius, Nestorius and Eutyches must be so proud.

However, don't you think that while our unity should be in Christ, that we must agree on who Christ is?

What do you believe the heart of the gospel is?

When Paul complains about the endless quarrels over the law and the genealogies and such, I'm pretty sure we can apply that to 99% of the quarreling that's going on here on CF.

I believe that part of the problem, in context, was that people were going back in their genealogies to see if any of their family at any time had been Jewish. The Law is gone.

However, some things are worth quarreling over. Not all, but some.

 

[GenemZ]

Which can lead anyone to believing what ever they believe to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

That includes yourself, sir.

Yes! Freedom is a mysterious wonderful thing!

In Revelation the Spirit speaks to the churches. Plural! Churches.

What unified them, was the same Scriptures.

Yet, they all faced entirely different issues. One could not think for the other. They each were assigned their own obstacles to overcome. There was no mother church dictating to each one what they needed to know in order to overcome. There was no one singular message.


.

 

[GenemZ]

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."

Its time that Catholics like yourself had a wake up call.

Your own Pope? He recently said that to quote that passage as you do? Is wrong.

"Pope Benedict XVI is to rehabilitate Martin Luther, arguing that he did not intend to split Christianity but only to purge the Church of corrupt practices."


"According to Vatican insiders the Pope will argue that Luther, who was excommunicated and condemned for heresy, was not a heretic."
​

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3492299.ece
​

.

 

[Philothei]

What happened was that arrogance built up in the church. It needed breaking away from for those who could see the truth. Peter warned that the established church would become corrupted down the road.

2 Peter 2:1-3 (New International Version)
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves."

​

.



Of course, each side will accuse the same of the other. But, do not act like what we see today was not supposed to happen. Don't you read your Bible?

2 Timothy 4:3 (New International Version)
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."
​

If you be the true church? You should be glad that God purged you of the burden of having to watch over all those who want only to rebel.

You should not be wanting them back in. God did you a favor, and you can not even see it. That is.. if you really have the truth, and all the truth.

I will ask my question again.

Does your denomination believe that Jesus was born with a sin nature? A sin nature that he overcame?


In Christ, GeneZ




.

What would be the point for Christ to establish a church that would become "corrupt"? St. Paul warned about abuses of PEOPLE not the Church.... People are always corrupt ....and all "churches" are... as long as there is human nature....

 

[GenemZ]

It is better to be livingly wrong than to be dead right.
I don't think Christ is looking for "right" people, but for those who love Him with all their heart, soul and mind.

We can not know Christ without the Truth. To be wrong about some aspect of Christ, is to love with all our heart an idol of Christ we have raised up of our own thinking.

Isaiah 55:8 (New International Version)
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD."
​

Many simply raise up in their hearts a fairy tale version of Christ. In a good number of ways Christ would shock you in your natural way of seeing life and love if you knew his thoughts on certain matters.

Proverbs 3:5 (New International Version)
"Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight."
​

​

All divisions stem from differing views of who and what believers think (wish) Christ is to be.

Proverbs 14:12 (New International Version)
"There is a way that seems right to a man,
but in the end it leads to death."
​

Dead works are the result of men thinking that their preferred way of seeing Christ, is how Christ is. Yet, his ways, are not our ways.

To come to know his ways?

"In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight."
​

Patience! And... Trusting.



In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[GenemZ]

What would be the point for Christ to establish a church that would become "corrupt"? St. Paul warned about abuses of PEOPLE not the Church.... People are always corrupt ....and all "churches" are... as long as there is human nature....

Because, Christ always knew he would have some who were Spirit filled and faithful, and by God's grace would find the Truth needed to escape the errors that crept into established churches. The gates of hell would not prevail, because Jesus knew that there would always be some who could accept correction and to learn from God's Spirit throughout history.

Jesus also said that "few would find it." That the majority in the church (broad and wide) would not. Mainstream thinking is not the few.



.

 

[Asinner]

It is better to be livingly wrong than to be dead right.
I don't think Christ is looking for "right" people, but for those who love Him with all their heart, soul and mind.
I don't think anyone has to be right.
Only Christ is right.
I think we have to be found in Christ and that is what matters.
We need to be those who are pursuing Him always.
We need to be those who always rejoice, unceasingly pray and in everything give thanks.