you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

Thekla · Mar 20, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
indeed. so I'm not sure Why I would want to seek out another chance to prove that condition.

once the condition is recognised, it can be addressed -- as in Kristos' explanation of the Pauline illustration. Practice helps. In prayer and humility, any shortcoming is an opportunity for God. Recognition is essential for advancement; identification of the problem in one realm assists in the recognition of the problem in others - relationship (to God, self and others), prayer, scripture reading, etc. What you have identified is a shared post-fall condition.

Thekla · Mar 20, 2008

PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter said:
What do you make of Jesus' words regarding repitition in prayer?

"And when you pray, do nut use vain repetions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words." Matt. 6:7

Go Cards!

Jesus repeated His prayer in the garden.

further, I suppose if we are to avoid repetition, we can only pray for another once per lifetime.

jckstraw72 · Mar 20, 2008

The true church consists of those believers who God can lead of the Spirit, into all truth

then two ppl with contradictory beliefs cant BOTH be in the Church ...

namericanboy · Mar 20, 2008

It should be a living, fluid prayer life. Casting our cares. giving praise and adoration, intercession for those around us..They are alive, passionate meaningful..peace to you...nab..

sunlover1 · Mar 20, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
then two ppl with contradictory beliefs cant BOTH be in the Church ...

Then there'd be no church.
Nobody agrees 100%, we all
have perspectives.

Rick Otto · Mar 20, 2008

Thekla said:
Jesus repeated His prayer in the garden.

further, I suppose if we are to avoid repetition, we can only pray for another once per lifetime.

Aw, c'mon.
What Jesus re-iterated in the garden wasn't a traditional prayer and his repetition wasn't verbatim or with the thought in mind that say 8 repetitions are better than 4.

You would not have to repeat yourself nor would it be necessarily in vain to pray for a person who might need it more than once in a lifetime for easily imaginably different reasons.

jckstraw72 · Mar 20, 2008

Then there'd be no church.
Nobody agrees 100%, we all
have perspectives.

thats not true at all. every true Orthodox accepts what the Orthodox Church teaches. we are in agreement.

what bothers me about it, is the very fact that inauthentic worship is very, very easy in such a pattern. I know that I could not do this "cycle" and take it seriously. I'd just be parroting along with whatever I'm supposed to say, and inauthentic worship, is no worship at all. What makes me reject it, is not only the fact that I know that it would be useless for me, but also that the claim is that this is how it's always been done (not really supported by evidence, or the liturgical churches would all have the same liturgy) and that this is how it is commanded to be (no such command exists) and that this is how it will be done in heaven (no evidence to believe this either.

1. inauthentic worship is easy anywhere. singing someone else's words can be inauthentic, listening to someone else preach to you can be inauthentic. but deeply spiritual worship is quite possible in our Liturgy.
2. you dont KNOW it would be uselss for you. i thought the same thing at first, but now i see that liturgical worship goes far deeper than any Protestant service i ever attended. it isnt just listening to someone talk about God, its actually stepping into His direct presence and experiencing Him.
3. the notion that it has always been done liturgically is quite easily supported. In Acts we are told that the earliest Christians continued worshiping in the liturgical settings of the Temple and Synagogues. the Didache shows signs of liturgy, and people like St. Justin Martyr and Hippolytus go into considerable detail about the liturgies. Honestly, ive never come across anyone who has studied the issue that will deny that the early Church was entirely liturgical. There's no reason to say we'd all have the same Liturgy -- there were various liturgies in various regions, but they all had the same form, same essence.
4. the command to worship liturgically comes straight from God to Moses. We KNOW without a doubt that God desires liturgy bc He Himself commanded it. the same cant be said about any other worship. the NT is the fulfillment of the OT, not a complete break. Introducing Christ into the Liturgy makes it the fulfilled Liturgy. what has been fulfilled in modern-day Evangelical services? they have no predecessor to have been fulfilled. Also, in Malachi 1:11 God says that all ppl shall offer Him a pure offering and incense. The Didache shows that early Christians connected this pure offering with the Eucharist, since only Christ Himself is pure.
5. You've been showed ample evidence that Heaven is liturgical -- God showed Moses things in Heaven and told him to pattern the tabernacle worship after it, which grew into Temple and later Synagogue worship. In Isaiah 6 a sacrifice on the altar purifies Isaiah of his sins (type of the Eucharist), and the entire book of Revelation is liturgical. Our worship is like stepping into the book of Revelation.

jckstraw72 · Mar 20, 2008

the angels in Heaven continually cry Holy Holy Holy, and the Psalms are very repetitive.

GenemZ · Mar 20, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
then two ppl with contradictory beliefs cant BOTH be in the Church ...

Both can not be being true to God's will.

Now, that is not saying that all who are living in what's false doctrines are not a part of the church. Those who have come to Christ.

After all, a young man was sleeping with his mother in Corinth, and Paul never intimidated that the man was not saved. Yet, Paul certainly stated that to God, this man was being untrue.

Being true to God is what I am getting at. At one time your church may have been the one true church. But, if we do not keep growing forward in truth, we die.

In Christ, GeneZ

.

Uphill Battle · Mar 20, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
thats not true at all. every true Orthodox accepts what the Orthodox Church teaches. we are in agreement.

no true scotsman.

1. inauthentic worship is easy anywhere. singing someone else's words can be inauthentic, listening to someone else preach to you can be inauthentic. but deeply spiritual worship is quite possible in our Liturgy.

never said it wasn't possible, either or. If it's inauthentic though, DON'T DO IT. which is why I do not.

2. you dont KNOW it would be uselss for you. i thought the same thing at first, but now i see that liturgical worship goes far deeper than any Protestant service i ever attended. it isnt just listening to someone talk about God, its actually stepping into His direct presence and experiencing Him.

hence relegating anyone who doesn't do your liturgy as neither in the presence of God, nor experiencing him. I can point to MANY instances in non liturgical church services, that the presence of God was palpable among his people. Liturgy was not required. (and even if you don't feel anything, Christ states taht where 2 or 3 are gathered, he's there.)

3. the notion that it has always been done liturgically is quite easily supported. In Acts we are told that the earliest Christians continued worshiping in the liturgical settings of the Temple and Synagogues.

"liturgical settings?" no such thing. Liturgy is done either here, or there. The fact that someone worshipped in the temple, is no proof of a liturgical worship.

the Didache shows signs of liturgy,

I put no stock in the Didache.

and people like St. Justin Martyr and Hippolytus go into considerable detail about the liturgies. Honestly, ive never come across anyone who has studied the issue that will deny that the early Church was entirely liturgical.

get used to it. Someone now has come across that doesn't believe that the early Church was entirely liturgical. I don't doubt that it was used. I don't believe it was, to the exclusion of all else.

There's no reason to say we'd all have the same Liturgy -- there were various liturgies in various regions, but they all had the same form, same essence.

or, not the same. "same essence" is a rather vague term.

4. the command to worship liturgically comes straight from God to Moses.

we are NOT JEWS.

We KNOW without a doubt that God desires liturgy bc He Himself commanded it. the same cant be said about any other worship. the NT is the fulfillment of the OT, not a complete break.

unless of course, you pay attention to the NT scriptures. The old is gone, the new is come.

Introducing Christ into the Liturgy makes it the fulfilled Liturgy. what has been fulfilled in modern-day Evangelical services?

I'm not much into believeing that WE fulfill anything. Christ fulfills. Not us.

they have no predecessor to have been fulfilled. Also, in Malachi 1:11 God says that all ppl shall offer Him a pure offering and incense.

yup. the offerings were OC, and they were bringing contemptible sacrifices. Christ comes, pure sacrifice, done ONCE.

The Didache shows that early Christians connected this pure offering with the Eucharist, since only Christ Himself is pure.

I've already spoken on my viewpont of the Didache.

5. You've been showed ample evidence that Heaven is liturgical -- God showed Moses things in Heaven and told him to pattern the tabernacle worship after it, which grew into Temple and later Synagogue worship. In Isaiah 6 a sacrifice on the altar purifies Isaiah of his sins (type of the Eucharist), and the entire book of Revelation is liturgical. Our worship is like stepping into the book of Revelation.

you've given reason why you think it IS liturgical. No evidence that it IS.

jckstraw72 said:
the angels in Heaven continually cry Holy Holy Holy, and the Psalms are very repetitive.

what Angels do is God's business. Have you ever stopped to consider why God created a Pantheon of character traits among humans? Different people, different personalities... different views?

Do you think he would let us loose on this earth for 80 years or so, to be individual, to slam the door on that in heaven, and that we would lose individuality in an eternal litany of repetition?

I just believe God thinks bigger than that.

jckstraw72 · Mar 20, 2008

no true scotsman.

i have no idea what that means.

"liturgical settings?" no such thing. Liturgy is done either here, or there. The fact that someone worshipped in the temple, is no proof of a liturgical worship.

you already said before that you dont deny that Jews worshiped liturgically! make up your mind puhlease.

I put no stock in the Didache.

so you say we give no evidence that itsa lways been done liturgically, but when we offer evidence you just dont feel like accepting it?

or, not the same. "same essence" is a rather vague term.

yes, St. James's Liturgy is not identical to St. Mark's Liturgy, is there a point?

we are NOT JEWS.

Christians are sons of Abraham by faith. there was not supposed to be a break between Judaism and Christianity -- Christianity is in fact the true Judaism.

but either way, i dont know how you keep missing the point. GOD HIMSELF COMMANDED LITURGY!!! Where does he command someone to get out their guitars and sing love songs to Him and then listen to a motivational speaker?! we know God desires Liturgy -- the same cannot be said of any other style of worship.

unless of course, you pay attention to the NT scriptures. The old is gone, the new is come.

the old is fulfilled, not abolished.

I'm not much into believeing that WE fulfill anything. Christ fulfills. Not us.

duh. so Christ fulfilled the rock and roll services of ancient Jewish worship? rock on.

yup. the offerings were OC, and they were bringing contemptible sacrifices. Christ comes, pure sacrifice, done ONCE.

read Malachi 1:11, its a prophecy of a time when the Gentiles come into the Church.

God did not like their sacrifices bc their heart was not there. He never actually tells them to stop offering sacrifices.

and how many times do i have to say that i agree we offer God no new sacrifice now? ive already posted an explanation about this when preacherswife aksed for it.

I've already spoken on my viewpont of the Didache.

right -- every early Christian was wrong. someohow, you, coming out of a corrupt tradition are able to throw off completely a corrupt mindset and discover the truth.

you've given reason why you think it IS liturgical. No evidence that it IS.

youre doing nothing more than simply denying bc your pre-determined beliefs demand it to be so.

if Jewish liturgical worship is a shadow of heavenly worship then what on earth does that mean to you?

Do you think he would let us loose on this earth for 80 years or so, to be individual, to slam the door on that in heaven, and that we would lose individuality in an eternal litany of repetition?

1. who said anything about losing individuality. maybe you lose individuality when you sing someone else's praise songs and listen to someone else's sermon
2. we are to lose ourself and gain Christ. im really quite fine with losing individuality -- whatever that even means.

Uphill Battle · Mar 20, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
i have no idea what that means.

It means that there is no such thing as the "true" Scotsman. Someone will say "no real Orthodox would" or "all true Orthodox would" when it's an assertion that cannot be proven.

you already said before that you dont deny that Jews worshiped liturgically! make up your mind puhlease.

I'm talking about Christians. Not OC Jews.

so you say we give no evidence that itsa lways been done liturgically, but when we offer evidence you just dont feel like accepting it?

the evidence is spurious.

yes, St. James's Liturgy is not identical to St. Mark's Liturgy, is there a point?

just noting that the "same essence" is vague.

Christians are sons of Abraham by faith. there was not supposed to be a break between Judaism and Christianity -- Christianity is in fact the true Judaism.

right. and the true Judaism is one sacrifice, for all time. not repeated sacrifices. The Jewish liturgy revolved around the neccessary repetition of the same act, for "absolvment" of sin-debt. that is no longer required.

but either way, i dont know how you keep missing the point. GOD HIMSELF COMMANDED LITURGY!!! Where does he command someone to get out their guitars and sing love songs to Him and then listen to a motivational speaker?!

you're contempt is duly noted. We're to make a joyful noise to the Lord. We're to worship in spirit and truth. We're to study the word. That seems to fit the bill (minus the arrogant "motivational speaker" crack.)

we know God desires Liturgy -- the same cannot be said of any other style of worship.

we don't know any such thing. You're assuming that the required sacrifices for sins, that HAD to repeated, should continue in form today (even though the acknowledgement of no more sacrifices exists.)

the old is fulfilled, not abolished.

and what is fulfilment? It isn't rubber stamping what was "always done."

duh. so Christ fulfilled the rock and roll services of ancient Jewish worship? rock on.

this is rather irrelevant. (and, seems to be getting awfully petty.)

right -- every early Christian was wrong. someohow, you, coming out of a corrupt tradition are able to throw off completely a corrupt mindset and discover the truth.

I didn't say that. I just don't believe that what is claimed as "they always said, did, or believed this" is anywhere near as accurate as the claiment would have you believe.

youre doing nothing more than simply denying bc your pre-determined beliefs demand it to be so.

if Jewish liturgical worship is a shadow of heavenly worship then what on earth does that mean to you?

the Shadow was the sacrifices. The reality, was the sacrifice of Christ. NOT the litanies.

1. who said anything about losing individuality. maybe you lose individuality when you sing someone else's praise songs and listen to someone else's sermon
2. we are to lose ourself and gain Christ. im really quite fine with losing individuality -- whatever that even means.

I just find it intriguing, is all. To think that God would have us all with free will in THIS life, and then make us all robots in the next.

jckstraw72 · Mar 20, 2008

It means that there is no such thing as the "true" Scotsman. Someone will say "no real Orthodox would" or "all true Orthodox would" when it's an assertion that cannot be proven.

so when Paul tells us to be of one mind its wishful thinking?

I'm talking about Christians. Not OC Jews.

the Apostles worshiped in the TEMPLE -- LITURGY

the evidence is spurious.

how so?

so youll only accept the Bible? but you also wont accept what the Bible says about worship either.

right. and the true Judaism is one sacrifice, for all time. not repeated sacrifices. The Jewish liturgy revolved around the neccessary repetition of the same act, for "absolvment" of sin-debt. that is no longer required.

and our Liturgy revolves around Christ's once sacrifice

you're contempt is duly noted. We're to make a joyful noise to the Lord. We're to worship in spirit and truth. We're to study the word. That seems to fit the bill (minus the arrogant "motivational speaker" crack.)

God told Moses to base the worship on what is shown in Heaven. Jews worship liturgically. please make the connection.

we don't know any such thing. You're assuming that the required sacrifices for sins, that HAD to repeated, should continue in form today (even though the acknowledgement of no more sacrifices exists.)

yes, we do know, bc it came right out of God's mouth, and also through Malachi that we should offer a pure offering. you have no command from God to go out on a wing and make up new styles of worship that have no connection to soteriological history.

and what is fulfilment? It isn't rubber stamping what was "always done."

nor is it "do whatever you want now." the presence of Christ in our Liturgy fulfills it, brings it to perfection. Jewish liturgy pointed ahead to Christ, Christian liturgy experiences Christ.

I didn't say that. I just don't believe that what is claimed as "they always said, did, or believed this" is anywhere near as accurate as the claiment would have you believe.

and your evidence is what?

the Shadow was the sacrifices. The reality, was the sacrifice of Christ. NOT the litanies.

so then why didnt God just tell them to kill animals and be done with it? why did He command all the ritual? you think it served no purpose?

I just find it intriguing, is all. To think that God would have us all with free will in THIS life, and then make us all robots in the next.

submitting to God makes us robots? those in Heaven are those who desire to serve God as He wants to be served. its not a loss of free will in any way.

Uphill Battle · Mar 20, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
so when Paul tells us to be of one mind its wishful thinking?

no. You're just assuming that Paul meant that we are to be of "one mind" on every little detail. An impossibility.

the Apostles worshiped in the TEMPLE -- LITURGY

that is supposition.

how so?

so youll only accept the Bible? but you also wont accept what the Bible says about worship either.

I accept what the bible says. I don't accept what you are telling me it says.

and for the most part, rules of faith are guided by the bible, not other things, yes. the issue with the Didache is it's spurious nature. Not only that it isn't in the bible.

and our Liturgy revolves around Christ's once sacrifice

good for it. The point is, it wasn't commanded.

God told Moses to base the worship on what is shown in Heaven. Jews worship liturgically. please make the connection.

are you Jewish? Neither am I.

yes, we do know, bc it came right out of God's mouth, and also through Malachi that we should offer a pure offering. you have no command from God to go out on a wing and make up new styles of worship that have no connection to soteriological history.

ah, so we get to the quick of it. Your church history tells you that this is the way God wants it done, so therefore, that is how God wants it done.

gotcha.

nor is it "do whatever you want now." the presence of Christ in our Liturgy fulfills it, brings it to perfection. Jewish liturgy pointed ahead to Christ, Christian liturgy experiences Christ.

funny... I know a number of Christians that experience Christ with no liturgy.

and your evidence is what?

a variety. Not just what one Church organization says.

so then why didnt God just tell them to kill animals and be done with it? why did He command all the ritual? you think it served no purpose?

It served a purpose. It's purpose has been served.

submitting to God makes us robots? those in Heaven are those who desire to serve God as He wants to be served. its not a loss of free will in any way.

no, submitting to God does not make us robots.

let's look at it another way. How do you imagine heaven will be?

sunlover1 · Mar 20, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
duh. so Christ fulfilled the rock and roll services of ancient Jewish worship? rock on.

Amen rock on!
Actually, Christians used to make a fuss about
pianos being played in church.
Nothing new under the sun.
God said Spirit and truth, not 'with
certain instruments and tempos' right?

God did not like their sacrifices bc their heart was not there. He never actually tells them to stop offering sacrifices.

Didnt He say He desired mercy not sacrifice?

right -- every early Christian was wrong. someohow, you, coming out of a corrupt tradition are able to throw off completely a corrupt mindset and discover the truth.

Way to go UB.

jckstraw72 said:
the Apostles worshiped in the TEMPLE -- LITURGY

We now are the temple.

yes, we do know, bc it came right out of God's mouth, and also through Malachi that we should offer a pure offering. you have no command from God to go out on a wing and make up new styles of worship that have no connection to soteriological history.

What is the definition of "pure' offering?
Have you heard the Heavenly Worship?
Are they chanting, yelling, harmonizing?
Do we really know?

Rdr Iakovos · Mar 20, 2008

PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter said:
What do you make of Jesus' words regarding repitition in prayer?

"And when you pray, do nut use vain repetions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words." Matt. 6:7

Go Cards!

The verse doesn't say "repetitions," it says "vain repetitions."

The Greeek term thus translated either refers to stuttering or long, tedious, wordy poems.

I have heard extemporaneous praying in Evangelical churches that made me wish that God would strike the speaker mute.

As for repetition, check out Psalm 136, where the phrase "His mercy endures forever" is repeated 26 times.

Uphill Battle · Mar 20, 2008

Rdr Iakovos said:
The verse doesn't say "repetitions," it says "vain repetitions."

The Greeek term thus translated either refers to stuttering or long, tedious, wordy poems.

to someone on the outside, the liturgical style would seem awfully wordy.

I have heard extemporaneous praying in Evangelical churches that made me wish that God would strike the speaker mute.

no doubt! I've heart the same.

As for repetition, check out Psalm 136, where the phrase "His mercy endures forever" is repeated 26 times.

It's a song.

simonthezealot · Mar 20, 2008

Rdr Iakovos said:
The Greeek term thus translated either refers to stuttering or long, tedious, wordy poems.

A good example may be the hail mary's/rosary performed by angelica and troupe on ewtn...

WarriorAngel · Mar 20, 2008

simonthezealot said:
A good example may be the hail mary's/rosary performed by angelica and troupe on ewtn...

ANd the EO pray the the Jesus prayer with a prayer rope.

If you do not like repeating scriptures, thats fine...Catholics do. The Hail Mary is scriptures.

Jesus isn’t condemning repetition in prayer; he’s condemning vain prayer. When Jesus said, "Do not babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words" (Matthew 6:7, NAB), he was referring to a belief of the pagans that a god would not listen to your prayer unless you used his correct title, and the title would change every day. Thus, the pagans would begin their prayer with every title they could think of in order to make sure their prayers would be heard (e.g., "O Great Zeus, O Master of Olympia, O Great Father Zeus. . . .") Jesus tells us this is vain because pagan gods don’t exist, and when we pray to God he hears all our prayers. We don’t have to worry about getting the right title.

In fact, Scripture gives us many examples of repetitive prayer. For example, in Matthew 26:36–46, Jesus prayed the same prayer three times. In Revelation 4:8, four living creatures are around and within the throne, and day and night they do not cease to say, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty." And then there’s the tax collector in Luke 18:9–14 who is beating his breast repeatedly and praying, "God, be merciful to me, a sinner!" And let’s not forget Luke 11:1–4, where Jesus tells us how to pray: He gives us the Lord’s Prayer. Since most Christians pray the Lord’s Prayer from time to time, they are all "guilty" of repetitious prayer. But it is not vain prayer—after all, we merely are doing as Jesus taught us.

Any prayer can be prayed in vain. What makes a prayer efficacious is the attitude of the heart (cf. CCC 2559). And sadly, "If our heart is far from God, the words of prayer are in vain" (CCC 2562; cf. Matt. 15:8–9).

jckstraw72 · Mar 20, 2008

no. You're just assuming that Paul meant that we are to be of "one mind" on every little detail. An impossibility.

i guess you can show me where he says to be of one mind only on select things? where does he mention the things that its ok to be at variance about?

why is it an impossibility? anyone in Paul's congregations who simply accepted what he taught would then have unity. its quite possible.

that is supposition.

look, on one hand you admit that liturgical worship happened in the Temple, and on the other you say its just a supposition. seriously, make up your mind.

good for it. The point is, it wasn't commanded.

the point is that Christ never said anything about instituting a radical change in worship. do you really think He had to specifically mention EVERYTHING that carried over? Can you imagine the Apostles thinking "well, He didnt say we had to keep worshiping liturgically, so of course that means its time for a massive overhaul!"?

ah, so we get to the quick of it. Your church history tells you that this is the way God wants it done, so therefore, that is how God wants it done.

gotcha.

actually i quoted Malachi. Doesnt your Sola Scriptura approach kinda demand that you accept it as authoritative?

have you noticed that you're not making any arguments, but simply denying mine?

are you Jewish? Neither am I.

do you have a point here? How do you justify the complete break that you posit btwn the OT and the NT? the Church is the true Israel, its not completely different. there is a seamless thread beginning with Abraham, running up through Christ and into His Body. it doesnt matter WHO God told to worship liturgically, the point is that we see God specifically demanding liturgical worship -- we KNOW He desires it (since He commanded it, and its in Heaven). you have absolutely no way of KNOWING that any other kind of service is pleasing to God at all. Cain musta thought his service was good too, but God had something different to say.

funny... I know a number of Christians that experience Christ with no liturgy.

funny, that doesnt even remotely address what i said.

a variety. Not just what one Church organization says.

and your evidence of non-liturgical worship is what? you have yet to provide a single piece of evidence to bolster your argument, from Scripture or history

It served a purpose. It's purpose has been served.

what was the purpose? youve already said that Christ fulfilled the sacrifices but that the prayers were i guess somehow separate since they didnt pertain to Christ, as you said.

let's look at it another way. How do you imagine heaven will be?

worshiping God.

you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

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