you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

holo · Mar 18, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
well if the Church that the Apostles became corrupted and change its beliefs then its no longer the same Church. then the true Church of the Apostles would be dead.

Perhaps church doesn't actually depend on some sort of flawless lineage back to the first christians? People are finding Christ everywhere and in all sorts of ways. A muslim has a vision of Christ in a dream. Some agnostic witnesses a miracle. An addict prays to an unknown God and is delievered. Etc. And they are all believers, and as such, they are all part of the church. Denomination, tradition, organization or building does not make a church! The very claim that "we are the one original and true church" only shows that one doesn't even understand what the church is.

jckstraw72 · Mar 18, 2008

except that Christendom contains contradictory beliefs -- contradictions cannot be a part of the Body of Christ for He is NOT the God of confusion. a house divided against itself cannot stand.

christianmomof3 · Mar 18, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
i substituted in an elementary art classroom yesterday

I imagine that was fun! I taught one 6th grade art class one year also. Mainly I taught middle school reading.

christianmomof3 · Mar 18, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
except that Christendom contains contradictory beliefs -- contradictions cannot be a part of the Body of Christ for He is NOT the God of confusion. a house divided against itself cannot stand.

That is true. We are only one when we are in Christ. Outside of Christ is confusion. The Body of Christ is not a religious institution. It is the redeemed and regenerated believers who are built up together in His life.

holo · Mar 18, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
except that Christendom contains contradictory beliefs -- contradictions cannot be a part of the Body of Christ for He is NOT the God of confusion. a house divided against itself cannot stand.

Our unity is in Christ, not in agreeing on every theological detail.

When someone tries to base unity on theological agreement, they're getting it wrong right from the start. In Christ there is neither jew nor greek, and there is most definitely room for wine drinkers and teetotalers, and there is of course room for different opinions on stuff. I know there is, because I've already changed my mind about a lot of stuff many times over, and it has never changed my position in Christ. I was just wrong about some things, and I'm no doubt wrong about some things still.

The fact that we disagree isn't the problem. The problem is that we think that our unity depends on agreement rather than the fact that we are all in Christ. We don't make ourselves one with each other. It is He who has done that

WarriorAngel · Mar 18, 2008

holo said:
Our unity is in Christ, not in agreeing on every theological detail.

When someone tries to base unity on theological agreement, they're getting it wrong right from the start. In Christ there is neither jew nor greek, and there is most definitely room for wine drinkers and teetotalers, and there is of course room for different opinions on stuff. I know there is, because I've already changed my mind about a lot of stuff many times over, and it has never changed my position in Christ. I was just wrong about some things, and I'm no doubt wrong about some things still.

The fact that we disagree isn't the problem. The problem is that we think that our unity depends on agreement rather than the fact that we are all in Christ. We don't make ourselves one with each other. It is He who has done that

So what you are saying is, truth really doesnt matter.

Neither Jew nor Greek..MEANS we DO NOT all hold our own ideas..but we become ONE in a common faith.

Ahuh!!

And then you contradict that very statement by saying it doesnt matter...which case in point means we are indeed Jew or Greek, but its ok so long as we are and we dont need to agree.

Are you seeing the problem?

jckstraw72 · Mar 18, 2008

Our unity is in Christ, not in agreeing on every theological detail.

St. Paul does not agree with you. He tells us to reject those who teach something different, and he constantly tells us to be of one mind, and he says continuing in the doctrines will save you and those around you.

Albion · Mar 18, 2008

WarriorAngel said:
So what you are saying is, truth really doesnt matter.

No, I'm pretty sure that what he is saying is 'Our unity is in Christ, not in agreeing on every theological detail.'

That's a very sound observation.

Albion · Mar 18, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
St. Paul does not agree with you. He tells us to reject those who teach something different, and he constantly tells us to be of one mind, and he says continuing in the doctrines will save you and those around you.

That's not what Paul was saying. He was much too perceptive to waste his time saying that we must all think the same thing about every last idea the mind of man can come up with. But he was definite about holding to the heart of the Gospel. That's quite a different matter.

jckstraw72 · Mar 18, 2008

That's not what Paul was saying. He was much too perceptive to waste his time saying that we must all think the same thing about every last idea the mind of man can come up with. But he was definite about holding to the heart of the Gospel. That's quite a different matter.

he tells us to reject those who teach differently, but you're saying its ok to teach differently from one another ... we dont even agree on the heart of the gospel.

Albion · Mar 18, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
he tells us to reject those who teach differently, but you're saying its ok to teach differently from one another ... we dont even agree on the heart of the gospel.

That's missing the point totally. The question is on what is taught, not simply that he said to be of one accord or to separate from falsehood. If you don't care to know what he was speaking about being false, you can't begin to talk about rejecting.

Paul taught the importance of holding to the doctrines necessary to salvation. He was firm about the nature of Christ, the atonement, etc. BUT he was equally strong in saying that the incidentals are NOT, in no way, to be considered in the same way.

holo · Mar 18, 2008

WarriorAngel said:
So what you are saying is, truth really doesnt matter.

Neither Jew nor Greek..MEANS we DO NOT all hold our own ideas..but we become ONE in a common faith.

Ahuh!!

And then you contradict that very statement by saying it doesnt matter...which case in point means we are indeed Jew or Greek, but its ok so long as we are and we dont need to agree.

Are you seeing the problem?

No, I've never said that truth doesn't matter, and I never will.

Jesus IS the truth. For any of us to claim that we know the full truth about anything, or even everything, is foolish at best. So to deny another member of the body of Christ based on some theological disagreement is just... way off. We are one in the faith in Christ. There are so many things we don't know, and there are so many areas where we can't and shouldn't be too bombastic, so it's just dumb to create divisions based on those things. I don't believe Jesus separates people based on how they interpret Paul's words on hair lengths, for example, so neither should we.

We don't need to agree on everything, because the gospel is simple enough for even a fool to understand. The gospel isn't some detailed set of beliefs about all sorts of technicalities and details. The main lines are bigger than that...

We are one, we are family, because we have the same father. We don't GET the same father because we agree on some point of view, we are siblings because He IS our Father. And just like in my own family, none of us knows and describes our parents in the exact same way. And some of us may misunderstand our parents now and then. But that doesn't make us any less children and siblings.

holo · Mar 18, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
St. Paul does not agree with you. He tells us to reject those who teach something different, and he constantly tells us to be of one mind, and he says continuing in the doctrines will save you and those around you.

Teach something different than what? A certain way to baptise? A certain way to pray? A certain way of assembling together?

Heresy isn't in details like that. Heresy is in denying that Jesus is the Christ.

Yes, we are to be of one mind. And that mind is not to be preoccupied with all sorts of minor stuff, but with the gospel. The gospel is simple, in fact it's so simple it's often easier for the fool to accept it than for the wise. "Learned" people have a tendency to complicate it. And then they make matters worse by insisting that unless you agree with their complication, you're not really part of the Body...

holo · Mar 18, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
he tells us to reject those who teach differently, but you're saying its ok to teach differently from one another ... we dont even agree on the heart of the gospel.

What do you believe the heart of the gospel is?

When Paul complains about the endless quarrels over the law and the genealogies and such, I'm pretty sure we can apply that to 99% of the quarreling that's going on here on CF.

holo · Mar 18, 2008

If you believe Jesus is the Christ, then you are my brother, whether you like it or not

And of course, we could always start a discussion on what is means to be the Christ and so forth. And we'd probably just end up arguing.

Look at how Jesus Himself met people. When someone came to Him because He was a great Rabbi who could teach them, He didn't go "yes, I'm your Rabbi, but have you felt sorry enough for this and that sin?" And when someone heard about this great Healer and came to Him to be healed, He didn't go "yes, but have you made Me your Personal Lord And Saviour(tm)?" And when people said "show us God!" He didn't go "well, here's the deal about baptism..."

I see christians accepting and rejecting each other for all sorts of reasons, but when I look in the bible, I don't see Jesus accepting or rejecting anyone for those reasons at all.

jckstraw72 · Mar 18, 2008

Paul taught the importance of holding to the doctrines necessary to salvation. He was firm about the nature of Christ, the atonement, etc. BUT he was equally strong in saying that the incidentals are NOT, in no way, to be considered in the same way.

which doctrines do you think Paul wasnt concerned with?

What do you believe the heart of the gospel is?

the Incarnate Logos crucified and resurrected of course that doesnt mean the same thing to me and you, and we could get many different answers from many different Christians as to what that means.

Uphill Battle · Mar 18, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
which doctrines do you think Paul wasnt concerned with?

the Incarnate Logos crucified and resurrected of course that doesnt mean the same thing to me and you, and we could get many different answers from many different Christians as to what that means.

that second bit makes it seem like you're LOOKING for reasons to disagree.

jckstraw72 · Mar 18, 2008

that second bit makes it seem like you're LOOKING for reasons to disagree.

um no. i wish we agreed, but im not going to pretend that we do. Christendom cant even agree on what salvation means. it doesnt get much worse than that. everyone always says oh we agree on the essentials -- but we cant even agree on salvation!

Uphill Battle · Mar 18, 2008

jckstraw72 said:
um no. i wish we agreed, but im not going to pretend that we do. Christendom cant even agree on what salvation means. it doesnt get much worse than that. everyone always says oh we agree on the essentials -- but we cant even agree on salvation!

I think you make more of it than there is.

jckstraw72 · Mar 18, 2008

I think you make more of it than there is.

you just made a thread abotu how you no longer believe in OSAS -- you didnt find 100% agreement there did you? is salvation predestined, is it once for all, can it be lost, is it a path to Godliness, do our works factor in, do they not factor in? etc etc etc -- no unity on even the "heart of the gospel"

you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

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