You observe days and months and seasons and years

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BobRyan

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Is that a quote from scripture? I am not going to read chapter 13 to try and figure out your point.
Seems more like another redirect.

You are making this too easy..

Hi @BobRyan, here is another informative post that included another passage from
Acts to help illustrate further.

your point that there were gentiles - god-fearing saved gentiles that went to the synagogues (so not pagan at all) is already accepted. That is not what Paul is condemning. In fact in Acts 13 he approves them in that state!!


Acts 13
15 After the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the synagogue officials sent word to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it.” 16 Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said,

Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen: 17 The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, ...23 From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,...

26 “Brothers, sons of Abraham’s family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent

Just as we see in Acts 10
Now there was a man in Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and made many charitable contributions to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, “Cornelius!” 4 And he looked at him intently and became terrified, and said, “What is it, lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and charitable gifts have ascended as a memorial offering before God.



Hi @BobRyan, Here's one you ignored.

Your reference to Acts 18:4 where "every Sabbath" Paul is preaching on Sabbath to both gentiles and Jews - creates a problem for your view (even in Acts 14) because the text says some of them were fully accepting the Gospel - and yet continue to come back Sabbath after Sabbath (every Sabbath) for more Gospel preaching. The very thing you appear to want to re-cast as a return to paganism.

Your argument does not survive that detail that you bring out in your own post.

.

That's what I do.

Don't think I don't appreciate how easy you are making this to see that your argument is not working.

You "really" need to read this post... it will help your argument
 
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Mr. M

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You "really" need to read this post... it will help your argument
Here is what you are missing Bob. You are separating who Paul is addressing in the letter into Jew
and Gentile, when he makes no distinction. We have already seen from Adam Clarke's commentary,
passages from Acts, and my post #78, that he is addressing the churches in the region of Galatia
which consisted of Jews and Gentiles who primarily were converts to Judaism. Are we to assume
that they were all blameless under the Law? That they didn't attend synagogue, Jew and Greek,
while engaging in various forms of Greek idolatry, or philosophy, of doctrines of science so called?
When they all left the synagogue, Jew and Greek, to join Paul and his companions, they were leaving
practices of Judaism behind, not forgetting that many may have been "traditions of the elders",
that Jeshua condemned. You refuse to acknowledge the content of the letter from chapters 2-5, that
Paul was addressing the fact that:
2:4 And because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), were troubling the churches in the region with practices that Paul insisted were unnecessary. You insist that they were pagans who came out of paganism and were now returning. The narrative does not support that. The commentaries do not support that. The letter does not support that. Quoting passages from Romans and 1 Corinthians is not relevant to the discussion. They may be relevant to a discussion of what constitutes idolatry or paganism. It is totally unacceptable to say that verses 1-7 of Galatians 4 have no bearing on what he is saying in verses 8-10. If you believe that, I will leave you to such blatantly false scholarship.
Your assumption is that he is only addressing Greeks in verse 8, as if Hellenized Jews and Greeks alike who observed some form of Judaism were free of false doctrines of "gods that are not gods". That there was some pure form of worship there before Paul arrived. To the contrary, the strictest Jews of Orthodoxy were the very ones opposing him and blaspheming him and driving him out of the synagogue. You accuse me of not holding myself to the details of the narrative, but your "details" are based on assumptions that simply do not hold.
It is like saying that all of the Christian denominations by the Grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit are holding pure doctrines. Nope, when the Tishbite comes, he will be cleaning house, even as Paul and the other apostles, under a powerful display of the power of the Holy Spirit, were cleaning house in the synagogues throughout the region.
He continues in his narrative in chapter 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

He is still addressing the churches of Galatia, making no distinction between Jew or Greek, just believers
who he was trying to hold to a pure doctrine of the New Covenant in the Holy Spirit. You are assuming
along with many commentators, that he is only addressing Gentiles when he says:
8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.
This is a brash, and irresponsible assumption. Totally in contradiction to the entire narrative of the
Law and the prophets. Jews were just as guilty as Greeks of "serving gods that are not gods."
I have pointed out repeatedly that you are making this assumption and it is absolutely unscriptural.
He is addressing the churches, making no distinction between Jew and Greek. You are doing that.
To quote a famous member of the forum: details matter. Yours are a little too convenient, and naive.
There is no reason to believe that prior to Paul bringing the Gospel to the region that the Jews there
were living like saints. That is a downright irrational assumption, but if you want to make it, I leave
you with this final appeal to reason, knowledge of human nature-both Jew and Gentile, and the
complete narrative of scripture. That Paul is addressing the issues of mankind, making no distinction between Jew or Gentile. Neither does the Father or the Son.
 
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BobRyan

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Here is what you are missing Bob. You are separating who Paul is addressing in the letter into Jew
and Gentile, when he makes no distinction.

1. It has already been shown that Paul approved believing gentiles "God fearing" gentiles - we saw it in post #3, you see it in Acts 13, we see it in Acts 10.. This is not "news".

2. We all agree that Paul is addressing pagans-turned Christian in Gal 4:8-11 even you agreed to it.

3. Paul was not condemning former pagans because they foresook paganism and accepted the God of the Bible before becoming Christians - that would be utter nonsense.

4. Paul is not calling belief in scripture a form of paganism - that would be nonsense.

5. Paul specifically points to their former paganism , contrasts that with their current Christian belief and then condemns them for turning back again - to their old pagan practice.

This is irrefutable.

We have already seen from Adam Clarke's commentary,
passages from Acts, and my post #78, that he is addressing the churches in the region of Galatia
which consisted of Jews and Gentiles

The letter to the Galatians is written to Christians
Paul never condemned any pagan for converting to belief in the God of the Bible nor did he ever claim that was a form of paganism.

The fact that some pagans converted directly to Christianity and others converted to scripture as known in OT then later Christianity is irrelevant since they are all there - and Paul specifically points back to their pagan belief in those who are "not gods at all'.

. You refuse to acknowledge the content of the letter from chapters 2-5, that
Paul was addressing the fact that:
2:4 And because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), were troubling the churches

I already did address it - I pointed out that as in 1Cor 5 and 6 - Paul is capable of addressing more than one issue in a letter.

The point remains. The details in Gal 4:8-11 matter as one of several issues facing former-pagans turned Christian in the church in Galatia


You insist that they were pagans who came out of paganism and were now returning.

That's how Paul words it in the text - he does not paint them as former believers in the one true God , but former pagans in Gal 4.

This is irrefutable.

The narrative does not support that.

Yes it does - I already showed that.

The commentaries do not support that.

Yes they do - I already showed that - they say that the former practice is paganism and turning back again - was turning to paganism.

The letter does not support that. Quoting passages from Romans and 1 Corinthians is not relevant to the discussion

Only for those who need to avoid the way that Paul refers to the Jewish condition and belief as compared to the pagan one. The "turning back again" in Gal 4:8-11 is clearly in reference to the former-pagans turning back again to paganism - which is not "belief in the God of the Bible" but rather ... "paganism"

. They may be relevant to a discussion of what constitutes idolatry or paganism. It is totally unacceptable to say that verses 1-7 of Galatians 4 have no bearing on what he is saying in verses 8-10. If you believe that, I will leave you to such blatantly false scholarship.

You can't simply "quote yourself" then blame what you say on me. that is not a compelling form of response.

Your assumption is that he is only addressing Greeks in verse 8, as if Hellenized Jews and Greeks alike who observed some form of Judaism were free of false doctrines

Paul does not claim that the one specific issue addressed in Gal 4:8-11 addresses all issues... that is not reasonable.

To the contrary, the strictest Jews of Orthodoxy were the very ones opposing him and blaspheming him and driving him out of the synagogue.

The flaw in that logic was already proven with Acts 13 and Acts 10 and 1Cor 8 and Romans 3:1 ... you are skimming over the details

It is like saying that all of the Christian denominations by the Grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit are holding pure doctrines.

Not even remotely true. Rather it is like saying "all Christian denominations face different issues and we can pick one and address it .. then we can pick another one and address it".

details matter.

8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.

That is paganism , as even the commentaries pointed out. Why keep going back over that as if the basic details are not understood?

Jews were just as guilty as Greeks of "serving gods that are not gods."

The idea that the book of Galatians is addressed to Jews who are serving gods that are no gods at all - is utterly false. All commentaries agree with that.
 
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Mr. M

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The idea that the book of Galatians is addressed to Jews who are serving gods that are no gods at all - is utterly false. All commentaries agree with that.
So the letter is written just for Greeks, or to the churches in that region Jew and Greek, with the
exception of 4:8, which clearly is only Greeks. That's funny, because Paul never makes any assertion that he is only speaking to Greeks, such as in Romans 11:13. The idea that you continue to use commentaries to support your position has become a running joke. Call them what they are, opinions. You really believe that none of the Jews were involved with idolatry? That's just as silly as it is unscriptural.
That is paganism , as even the commentaries pointed out. Why keep going back over that as if the basic details are not understood?

Oh, that's right. Jews never were involved in Paganism or idolatry. You truly are clueless on this
topic.
Jeremiah 32:
34
But they set their abominations in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.
35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’

Is that not pagan enough for you?

Not even remotely true. Rather it is like saying "all Christian denominations face different issues and we can pick one and address it .. then we can pick another one and address it".

details matter.
And as you addressed each one, none of the errors would have resulted from idolatry or
pagan traditions, because the church is otherwise pure, w/e minor doctrinal differences. Merry Christmas.
The flaw in that logic was already proven with Acts 13 and Acts 10 and 1Cor 8 and Romans 3:1 ... you are skimming over the details

Logic has nothing to do with this Bob. It is an historical fact. Paul was persecuted repeatedly by his countrymen.
 
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Mr. M

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Paul does not claim that the one specific issue addressed in Gal 4:8-11 addresses all issues... that is not reasonable.
How is it you cannot read a simple statement and get it right. I said that you cannot assume
that Paul is only addressing Greeks in verse 8-10, when Jews are just as susceptible to error.
My statement says nothing about issues, There is one issue, and Jews and Greeks are being
addressed concerning this, not just Greeks as you assume. You assume, and you assume.
You have no factual basis other than this ridiculous assertion that "all commentaries agree".

Only for those who need to avoid the way that Paul refers to the Jewish condition and belief as compared to the pagan one. The "turning back again" in Gal 4:8-11 is clearly in reference to the former-pagans turning back again to paganism - which is not "belief in the God of the Bible" but rather ... "paganism"
Saying the same thing over and over does not prove anything. He wrote a letter to the churches.
For some reason you only want one verse, 4:8, to apply to Greeks only because Jews could not
possibly be accused of ever worshipping idols. What Bible do you use? Or do you just stick to commentaries?
You can't simply "quote yourself" then blame what you say on me. that is not a compelling form of response.
What does that mean? I am not quoting myself. You have refused to include vvs. 1-7 in the discussion from the start. Just stating a fact.

Only for those who need to avoid the way that Paul refers to the Jewish condition and belief as compared to the pagan one. The "turning back again" in Gal 4:8-11 is clearly in reference to the former-pagans turning back again to paganism - which is not "belief in the God of the Bible" but rather ... "paganism"
The Greeks believed in the God of the Bible from the beginning. They were proselytes and met
Paul in the synagogue. There is absolutely nothing to support the idea that Paul is addressing the churches, and in mid-narrative, make a special comment for those who came out of paganism later
to join. Furthermore, he does not say that they went back to worshipping other gods, he says,
10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.
 
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HARK!

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MOD HAT ON

Per the OP's request:

241634_a435e7c864cf3d1d54069d68f79ef38b_thumb.jpg


MOD HAT OFF
 
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