You Must Serve One Of Two Masters

[Oneofhope]

What does this mean? Scripture tells us, plainly, that we will serve one of two possible Masters, Satan, or God the Father.

But what if a person doesn’t want to serve either of them? Can the folks who believe in free will actually decide not to serve either Satan or God? Can a free will advocate be independent of the control of either of these two Effectual Fathers?

 

[RandyPNW]

What does this mean? Scripture tells us, plainly, that we will serve one of two possible Masters, Satan, or God the Father.

But what if a person doesn’t want to serve either of them? Can the folks who believe in free will actually decide not to serve either Satan or God? Can a free will advocate be independent of the control of either of these two Effectual Fathers?

Free Will does not necessarily imply "absolute freedom," including freedom from environmental conditions, or freedom from our own brain's programming. We make choices within the context that the Creator gave us. But we do have free choice to decide whether to respond to God's word or not.

I personally believe that God knows who are predisposed to respond favorably to His word, and who are not. Determining that is the domain of God. Since we are not God we may have trouble figuring that out.

When we choose to "go our own way," it is not a "3rd way." In choosing to go our own way what we are really doing is rejecting our on board programming, which is designed to respond favorably to God's word. We were born in the image of God, and are predisposed to responding to God's word.

But sin has wrecked our programming, and we have re-programmed our brain to resist control by the Programmer. As such we are in a war between wanting to do the right thing and wanting to rebel against doing the right thing.

In rebelling against doing the right thing we are not deciding to do nothing or to follow some "3rd way." Rather, we are following Satan in rebelling against God's word. At what point we've completely thrown in with Satan I don't know. Again, we've have to be God to know, unless it is revealed to us by Him.

 

[bling]

Choosing not to serve God automatically makes you selfishly sinning and serving satan.

 

[Oneofhope]

Free Will does not necessarily imply "absolute freedom," including freedom from environmental conditions, or freedom from our own brain's programming. We make choices within the context that the Creator gave us. But we do have free choice to decide whether to respond to God's word or not.

I personally believe that God knows who are predisposed to respond favorably to His word, and who are not. Determining that is the domain of God. Since we are not God we may have trouble figuring that out.

When we choose to "go our own way," it is not a "3rd way." In choosing to go our own way what we are really doing is rejecting our on board programming, which is designed to respond favorably to God's word. We were born in the image of God, and are predisposed to responding to God's word.

But sin has wrecked our programming, and we have re-programmed our brain to resist control by the Programmer. As such we are in a war between wanting to do the right thing and wanting to rebel against doing the right thing.

In rebelling against doing the right thing we are not deciding to do nothing or to follow some "3rd way." Rather, we are following Satan in rebelling against God's word. At what point we've completely thrown in with Satan I don't know. Again, we've have to be God to know, unless it is revealed to us by Him.

Hello Randy!

Lot's of interesting ideas, here. Thank you for sharing!

As for being programmed, that idea actually fits with the context of the entire Bible. However, if a person is programmed, are we prepared to say that God's programming cannot be trusted and counted on? Does this mean that Satan's programming is more Powerful than God's programming?

Job 42:2 CSB - "I know that you can do anything and no plan of yours can be thwarted."

When Job acknowledged that the Plans of God cannot be stopped, wouldn't this indicate that God's programming cannot be altered?

 

[Oneofhope]

Choosing not to serve God automatically makes you selfishly sinning and serving satan.

Who caused this person to choose the Devil over the Lord?

If a person can choose either the Lord or the Devil, would this indicate that they are independent of either at some point? Can our "free will" choose neither?

 

[eleos1954]

What does this mean? Scripture tells us, plainly, that we will serve one of two possible Masters, Satan, or God the Father.

But what if a person doesn’t want to serve either of them? Can the folks who believe in free will actually decide not to serve either Satan or God? Can a free will advocate be independent of the control of either of these two Effectual Fathers?

All are in a position of choice ... there isn't neutral ground ... we have the freedom to choose. Neither control us ... choices are presented and we make choices and are responsible for them.

A person of indecision is considered lukewarm

Revelation 3:15
I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other!

 

[Oneofhope]

All are in a position of choice ... there isn't neutral ground ... we have the freedom to choose. Neither control us ... choices are presented and we make choices and are responsible for them.

A person of indecision is considered lukewarm

Revelation 3:15
I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other!

Hello, and thanks for joining in!

I hear what you are saying, however, after an exhaustive study of the Bible, there are many, many passages that talk about how God controls us. If you tell me which translation you prefer to use, I can show them to you in that translation.

Thanks again!

 

[Sabertooth]

But what if a person doesn’t want to serve either of them? Can the folks who believe in free will actually decide not to serve either Satan or God? Can a free will advocate be independent of the control of either of these two Effectual Fathers?

There are only three types of people in the context of the OP:

1. those who have surrendered to God, through Jesus' work on the Cross;
2. those who deliberately surrender to the Devil &
3. those who fancy themselves to be neutral, like Switzerland.

#3s have three problems that they have not considered,

• Unlike the 1s, 3s have no defense against the Devil's agenda to manipulate them for his purposes.
• The Devil does not, nor has he any obligation to, recognize their declared neutrality; he is a spiritual outlaw. As are they.
  "Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." 1 Peter 5:8 NIV
• 3s have not had their sins washed away, so they still cannot stand in the Presence of God (when they die).

Gotta Serve Somebody, Bob Dylan (1979)​

 

[Oneofhope]

There are only three types of people in the context of the OP:

1. those who have surrendered to God, through Jesus' work on the Cross;
2. those who deliberately surrender to the Devil &
3. those who fancy themselves to be neutral, like Switzerland.

#3s have three problems that they have not considered,

• Unlike the 1s, 3s have no defense against the Devil's agenda to manipulate them for his purposes.
• The Devil does not, nor has he any obligation to, recognize their declared neutrality; he is a spiritual outlaw. As are they.
  "Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." 1 Peter 5:8 NIV
• 3s have not had their sins washed away, so they still cannot stand in the Presence of God (when they die).

Gotta Serve Somebody, Bob Dylan (1979)​

Top to bottom, I absolutely love this post. And to think that I have all of Bob Dylan's music (I think), and forgot about "Gotta Serve Somebody."

Dylan got it right!

You said something that the Bible fully supports, which is that some have no defense against the Devil's agenda to manipulate them for his evil purposes. This is the fundamental context of the Bible, which is that the Lord's Elect needs to be released from the captivity for the precise reason you gave. Those under the Power of the Devil are manipulated. This is why the Work of Christ, according to the Scriptures, separates a person from the Power of the Devil, thus no longer being allowed to manipulate that person beyond their own choice and control.

Every bit of your post is dripping with "Bible." You have not offered a man-made idea, but without quoting Chapter and Verse, you are most certainly conveying the principles of the Bible in a most accurate and demonstrable way.

Thank you for posting!

 

[Oneofhope]

I meant to add that if a person, prior to being Transformed by Christ, is manipulated by the Devil, total and complete free will is a fundamental impossibility that even a child can recognize and understand. A child can testify that when they are told to do something that they don't want to do, they have lost their right to choose.

 

[RandyPNW]

Hello Randy!

Lot's of interesting ideas, here. Thank you for sharing!

As for being programmed, that idea actually fits with the context of the entire Bible. However, if a person is programmed, are we prepared to say that God's programming cannot be trusted and counted on? Does this mean that Satan's programming is more Powerful than God's programming?

Job 42:2 CSB - "I know that you can do anything and no plan of yours can be thwarted."

When Job acknowledged that the Plans of God cannot be stopped, wouldn't this indicate that God's programming cannot be altered?

Yes, these are interesting matters. I would say that God, once He has decreed something, cannot be challenged. However, numerous activities, supported by God, He has allowed to be challenged.

For example, God supported Man's choice to eat of the Tree of Life in Eden. He allowed Man to challenge that, and he did. And so, God's supported plan got successfully changed.

We know that God's original determination, however, cannot be challenged. Men will eventually partake of the Tree of Life. And the sin of challenging God's Word will be judged and punished, or removed forever. It's allowable to challenge God, but it is not to be recommended!

Take care! I appreciate the exchange, as well.

 

[bling]

Who caused this person to choose the Devil over the Lord?

If a person can choose either the Lord or the Devil, would this indicate that they are independent of either at some point? Can our "free will" choose neither?

No. We enter this world as innocent babies, but if we live long enough to reach our age of accountability, we sin. Sinning automatically makes us a slave of satan (we are slaves of who we obey). As a good soldier of satan, I can still wimp out, give up and surrender to my enemy God, even though I am still hating God (soldiers who surrender are not joining their enemy). The fact that I an just willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity from my hate enemy (God) allows God to shower me with unbelievable wonderful gift.

 

[Oneofhope]

I would say that God, once He has decreed something, cannot be challenged.

Yes sir . . . and the above is Scriptural, for Job said it Himself:
Job 42:2 CSB - "I know that you can do anything and no plan of yours can be thwarted."

And so did one of the Psalmists:
Psalm 33:6, 10-11 NLT - "The LORD merely spoke, and the heavens were created. He breathed the word, and all the stars were born. ... 10 The LORD frustrates the plans of the nations and thwarts all their schemes. 11 But the LORD's plans stand firm forever; his intentions can never be shaken."

Your ideas on people eating from the Tree of Life in the Garden, that God had changed His Plan. I don't see in Scripture. I see that there is an Eternal Plan stated before Adam and Eve's fall . . . Genesis 1 3-4, where God commanded that Light arrive, and that it would separate the darkness (within our hearts) from the Light. This is referring to the Circumcision of Christ, which can be done at any time and to anyone, according to the Lord in Exodus 33:19.

The First Book of Adam and Eve, which I recommend that all people read, even mentions the 5,500-year covenant, which points to Christ on the cross to make His Elect Right with the Lord. Anyway, that's a different topic, but one that is spectacular, but also vital toward understanding the core context of the Bible.

Great ideas! Keep them coming folks!

 

[Oneofhope]

No. We enter this world as innocent babies, but if we live long enough to reach our age of accountability, we sin. Sinning automatically makes us a slave of satan (we are slaves of who we obey). As a good soldier of satan, I can still wimp out, give up and surrender to my enemy God, even though I am still hating God (soldiers who surrender are not joining their enemy). The fact that I an just willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity from my hate enemy (God) allows God to shower me with unbelievable wonderful gift.

I see, and thank you.

Doesn't the Scriptures tell us that our problem is that because of Adam and Eve, all of physical creation is under a Curse, the Curse of the Lord? We know that even little babies are under this Curse, for not only are they a part of this physical world, but they will die. All babies will die at some point, from within the womb or as an elderly who has lived 120 years and reached the limit of God. If all will die, then we can know that all are under the Curse of the Lord. And anyone who is under the Curse of the Lord, well, their Spiritual Father is the Devil. No? Yes?

Thank you, Bling!

 

[eleos1954]

Hello, and thanks for joining in!

I hear what you are saying, however, after an exhaustive study of the Bible, there are many, many passages that talk about how God controls us. If you tell me which translation you prefer to use, I can show them to you in that translation.

Thanks again!

Just post the verses ... I look at many translations and check the greek and hebrew lexicons as well along with searching the entire bible for consistency in principle.

Free moral agency is a gift that God has given to every human being (and all his intelligent beings). He allows us to make our own decisions and choices. This is something God does not control.

He did not make us robots where we are just programmed to do what He wants us to do. He created billions of human beings each with their own individuality, thinking, and reasoning and the ability to make choices, even choices against Him. And this is what Adam and Eve did; they chose to disobey God ... He don't control our choices.

 

[Oneofhope]

Just post the verses ... I look at many translations and check the greek and hebrew lexicons as well along with searching the entire bible for consistency in principle.

Free moral agency is a gift that God has given to every human being (and all his intelligent beings). He allows us to make our own decisions and choices. This is something God does not control.

He did not make us robots where we are just programmed to do what He wants us to do. He created billions of human beings each with their own individuality, thinking, and reasoning and the ability to make choices, even choices against Him. And this is what Adam and Eve did; they chose to disobey God ... He don't control our choices.

Good morning!

Well, I'll start with one set of passages. I have collected over 350 passage sets, so this will be a good place to start if you're interested in continuing.

Let's begin with Israel as an entire Nation. They were put into a deep sleep by God, less those that God chose to Enable. If you disagree that they were not controlled and that their sense of free will was not touched, then perhaps I haven't a clue as to what "free will" is all about.

Romans 11:5-11 NLT - "It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God's grace--his undeserved kindness in choosing them. And since it is through God's kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God's grace would not be what it really is--free and undeserved. So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear." Likewise, David said, "Let their bountiful table become a snare, a trap that makes them think all is well. Let their blessings cause them to stumble, and let them get what they deserve. Let their eyes go blind so they cannot see, and let their backs be bent forever." Did God's people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves."

 

[bling]

I see, and thank you.

Doesn't the Scriptures tell us that our problem is that because of Adam and Eve, all of physical creation is under a Curse, the Curse of the Lord? We know that even little babies are under this Curse, for not only are they a part of this physical world, but they will die. All babies will die at some point, from within the womb or as an elderly who has lived 120 years and reached the limit of God. If all will die, then we can know that all are under the Curse of the Lord. And anyone who is under the Curse of the Lord, well, their Spiritual Father is the Devil. No? Yes?

Thank you, Bling!

Some might say: “The knowledge of good and evil changed our nature”, but our knowledge is not our disposition or attitude. Knowledge in and of itself is not “bad”. There is a lot of good, we can learn from the Adam and Eve story.

There were lots of “curses” bestowed upon Adam, Eve and mankind, but these are not punishment for their one sin, but really can help them and us in the future fulfilling the earthly objective after they sinned. Death helps, the threat of hell helps, limited resources help, working to survive helps, reliance on God helps, having to seek God’s mercy and forgiveness helps, this messed up world is actually the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective, which Adam & Eve showed us.

Is “death” bad in and of itself? Good people get to go home to be with their Father and bad people quit doing bad stuff. Some babies also have to die to make death truly real at any time so, we need to care, protect and be responsible for all needy people, but that helps us also to be like Christ: show, experience, give, and grow Godly type Love.

 

[Oneofhope]

Some might say: “The knowledge of good and evil changed our nature”, but our knowledge is not our disposition or attitude. Knowledge in and of itself is not “bad”. There is a lot of good, we can learn from the Adam and Eve story.

There were lots of “curses” bestowed upon Adam, Eve and mankind, but these are not punishment for their one sin, but really can help them and us in the future fulfilling the earthly objective after they sinned. Death helps, the threat of hell helps, limited resources help, working to survive helps, reliance on God helps, having to seek God’s mercy and forgiveness helps, this messed up world is actually the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective, which Adam & Eve showed us.

Is “death” bad in and of itself? Good people get to go home to be with their Father and bad people quit doing bad stuff. Some babies also have to die to make death truly real at any time so, we need to care, protect and be responsible for all needy people, but that helps us also to be like Christ: show, experience, give, and grow Godly type Love.

Ok. Thank you very much for sharing, Bling.

 

[Neogaia777]

What does this mean? Scripture tells us, plainly, that we will serve one of two possible Masters, Satan, or God the Father.

But what if a person doesn’t want to serve either of them? Can the folks who believe in free will actually decide not to serve either Satan or God? Can a free will advocate be independent of the control of either of these two Effectual Fathers?

Your theology/ideas are just a little bit off, because there is only ever One who programmed, and all other angels/beings/humans, including Satan, are all a part of that, and all fall under that, etc.

IOW's Satan does not have free will either, and does not/cannot institute his own will/programming (onto others) but can only ever follow or do, only God the Father's own will/programming ever, etc.

The Father quite literally has already wrote all, and none can escape/change that, no matter how hard they might think otherwise, or do insist, or might do or try that, etc.

And until this all fully plays out completely, none of us has or ever will have absolute insight into that (yet), etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

Your theology/ideas are just a little bit off, because there is only ever One who programmed, and all other angels/beings/humans, including Satan, are all a part of that, and all fall under that, etc.

IOW's Satan does not have free will either, and does not/cannot institute his own will/programming (onto others) but can only ever follow or do, only God the Father's own will/programming ever, etc.

The Father quite literally has already wrote all, and none can escape/change that, no matter how hard they might think otherwise, or do insist, or might do or try that, etc.

And until this all fully plays out completely, none of us has or ever will have absolute insight into that (yet), etc.

God Bless.

This is why if we think or feel that we really are struggling with Satan way, way beyond our own ability, we need to pray to the Father (in Jesus name) and ask Him to help us and/or change that, etc.

And hopefully it was already written for us to pray to Him in or at those moments, and hopefully it was already in His will to do something about that and/or change it, etc, because none can ever resist, or ever has any kind of power over that, etc, not even Satan, or even God the Holy Spirit, and not even the Angels, or even Jesus Christ, because that is just how high and how great God the Father is, etc.

God Bless.