You Know... Maybe The 'Church' is on to Som'n Here?

[cvanwey]

What could be clearer than the message he sent? You are trying to clarify it for a 3 month old baby, but you are not a 3 month old baby, you are an adult who can understand that you are a sinner (even if you do good deeds) and that a holy God wants nothing to do with sin and therefore requires it be removed from our lives and to that end, by his Grace he has provided a way: the death of Jesus, the Messiah. Believe that, have faith in God and you are on the path to salvation.

If the objective for salvation was clear, the fate of the 3-month-old would be easily known. That is my entire point. Again....

- grace alone (all are now ultimately already saved in the end)
- grace by faith (some level of belief/trust in Him is required, presumably prior to death)
- grace by works (what we do, while either believing Him not at all, a little, or a lot?)
- some necessary combo platter (how much of each IS necessary, if any)

 

[cvanwey]

It is not a requirement for salvation that all Christians agree, though it would be nice.

You again have twisted my point Opposing sides cannot both logically be right.

Example:

-- One states grace alone is sufficient.

-- Another states works are required.

We also have original sin and/or actual sin....

The fate of the 3-month-old exposes the conflict between the two opposing doctrines here....

 

[cvanwey]

I'm sure there are many like that and I feel sorry for them, but that should be a shock awakening to them that their theology may be a bit askew.

So either their theology is right and their unbaptised baby has gone to hell or their theology is wrong and the baby is fine. Either way the baby is dead and they are suffering.

And it seems to me that God is far more interested in the fate of the baby and the suffering of the parents than in theoretical squabbles about whether the baby has gone to heaven or hell.

My point here is that God cares not to clarify if this baby will end up in Heaven or hell. You can certainly read many passages to support the conclusion that their baby is in hell. If God cares about the well-being of the ones whom mourn such loss, seems as though God might not allow such ambiguity in His Word?

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

You do not even have to be a Christian to believe that Jesus claimed to die to save us. And sure, the difference between the Christian and the non-Christian is the belief that the claim is true. HOWEVER, immediately after this point, it goes right back to the following:

- grace alone (all are now ultimately already saved in the end)
- grace by faith (some level of belief/trust in Him is required, presumably prior to death)
- grace by works (what we do, while either believing Him not at all, a little, or a lot?)
- some necessary combo platter (how much of each IS necessary, if any)

Does it really go back to your list? I'd have thought it went back to what the Bible says, not what people want it to say. Ephesians is very clear that it is not Grace Alone and that works won't save you. Build a framework from that and you will see how everything else fits in, including works.

 

[cvanwey]

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]

Are you actually following along, or, merely attempting to poke tiny holes in whatever you feel you can actually debate?

Looks as though we have two concepts, as presented from the Bible:

1. Original sin - for which many feel they must baptize their young, in the event they should die prior to their own self-chosen repentance. "We are all born in sin, and need to be cleansed...."

2. Actual sin - for which many feel needs known repentance to their proclaimed God, when they are later able...

These two realizations then alone leads us to....

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

"As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

"The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one."

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

According to the Bible, all are born corrupt/dirty/unrighteous. No one is 'good'. So if a 3-month-old dies, and is not 'purified' somehow, God deems such a human as corrupt; unworthy of salvation. Unless, you adopt the notion of grace alone?.?.?.?.?

If the objective for salvation was clear, the fate of the 3-month-old would be easily known. That is my entire point. Again....

- grace alone (all are now ultimately already saved in the end)?
- grace by faith (some level of belief/trust in Him is required, presumably prior to death)?
- grace by works (what we do, while either believing Him not at all, a little, or a lot?)?
- some necessary combo platter (how much of each IS necessary, if any)?

You tell me, oh 'wise well-read' one???

 

[cvanwey]

Does it really go back to your list? I'd have thought it went back to what the Bible says, not what people want it to say. Ephesians is very clear that it is not Grace Alone and that works won't save you. Build a framework from that and you will see how everything else fits in, including works.

Yes, it likely does. And you have provided nothing, as of yet, to demonstrate that these four options are not legitimately on the table. Here is the list again:

- grace alone (all are now ultimately already saved in the end)?
- grace by faith (some level of belief/trust in Him is required, presumably prior to death)?
- grace by works (what we do, while either believing Him not at all, a little, or a lot?)?
- some necessary combo platter (how much of each IS necessary, if any)?

The Bible is not clear. Again, you need not go any further than identifying and acknowledging the existence of both Evangelicals, as well as Catholics. I've been to plenty of meetings from both institutions. They both claim to have 'saved' the other ones. Meaning, an Evangelical saved their Catholic mom from hell, by no longer being a Catholic. And vise-versa... Ephesians is no more or less clear than other opposing Verse I could site, for which you might merely then rationalize.

 

[cvanwey]

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]

Here is the extremely limited and calculated response, for which you decided to present your 'beef': "You can certainly read many passages to support the conclusion that their baby is in hell."

Now, did I state the Bible itself specifically states 'infants go to hell'? Nope. Of course the Bible is not going to present an endless list of 'Heaven-bound' and 'Hell-bound' individuals. You would still be reading the Bible now, and never be finished. Heck, the authors might still be writing the dang thing

Instead, The Bible lists criteria. What are these criteria? That is the question? IF the criteria, as it looks to be given from the Bible, is that ALL are born dirty, and are unworthy of salvation, then we do not need an infinite number of infant scenarios, now do we @2PhiloVoid ? Thus, if you instead adopt the notion of 'grace alone', then you can ignore the Verses, which elude to the notion that all humans are dirty, until made clean by some form of necessary 'works' / other?

However, if one follows Chapter and Verse, one "can certainly read many passages to support the conclusion" that infants go to hell. For which I then cited.

As usual, I might have merely tapped your 'monster'. You appear quite perturbed now.

Okay, let's continue below....

Time is ticking, cvanwey. Time is ticking! Better get on it so someone like me doesn't have have to take your Troll shoes away from you. 'Cuz, I will! I've about had enough of your crap.

I continue to be in virtual awe at the fact that this forum is specifically designed for "non-Christians to challenge the Christian faith, and for Christians to defend their faith". And in return, you reference me as a 'troll'?

Very bazaar indeed?.?.?.?

And please remember, we appear to have the following, for which you conveniently avoid:

- original sin and actual sin

as well as:

- grace alone (all are now ultimately already saved in the end)?
- grace by faith (some level of belief/trust in Him is required, presumably prior to death)?
- grace by works (what we do, while either believing Him not at all, a little, or a lot?)?
- some necessary combo platter (how much of each IS necessary, if any)?

 

[cvanwey]

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]

If you believe my inquiries are 'junk' and 'crap', then why waste your precious time responding, for 2 1/2 years? There's a question.

The fact that you continue to get miffed, is on you.

 

[cvanwey]

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]

Haha, okay

Truly, I'm flattered. Here you were, telling all you were going to 'ride off into the sunset.' But instead, months later, you wish to present pure nobility, be completely altruistic, and guide others of "what not to do." Awesome. How were you planning on achieving this BTW?

- Were you going to stick with the 'nuh-uh' defense?
- Were you going to continue moving the goal posts?
- Or were you going to be even less creative, and just continue performing plain ol' ad hominems, red herrings, or ignoring the points?

(All recently demonstrated from post #38 of God's Revelation is Real and Proven!)

Just curious?

******************************

Now we can start anew, so you can start your education process, for others of course, on HOW to interpret Scripture the CORRECT way

A baby dies at three months of age.

Question: According to Chapter and Verse of Scripture, and all given criteria presented, what is the demise of this baby...?

a. Goes to Heaven
b. Goes to hell
c. We don't know because Scripture is not clear

I suspect I already know your answer.

 

[Tone]

Opposing sides cannot both logically be right.

Who ever said it all has to be logically right (it would be correct actually)?

This is certainly true for a computer, but for a person, not so much.

Unless, of course, you are on Star Trek or something.

 

[cvanwey]

Who ever said it all has to be logically right (it would be correct actually)?

This is certainly true for a computer, but for a person, not so much.

Unless, of course, you are on Star Trek or something.

I agree some things [exclude] logic... Emotion for example....

In regards to salvation, there can only be one answer. The deceased infant either goes to Heaven or hell. This is the dichotomy.

Here's what we 'know' from the Bible:

The Bible speaks about [original sin and actual sin].

Thus, here is the question for the infant's resolve.

Does this baby go to heaven or hell?

Surely following and interpreting the Words of the Bible will lead us to an answer, right? Or will it? Logically, we can conclude the baby has performed no [actual] sin. Is God going to smite the baby for continuing to have 'original sin'? Or is 'grace alone' the answer here? Please remember the 4 plausibilities below:

- grace alone (all are now ultimately already saved in the end)?
- grace by faith (some level of belief/trust in Him is required, presumably prior to death)?
- grace by works (what we do, while either believing Him not at all, a little, or a lot?)?
- some necessary combo platter (how much of each IS necessary, if any)?

 

[Tone]

I agree some things [exclude] logic... Emotion for example....

In regards to salvation, there can only be one answer. The deceased infant either goes to Heaven or hell. This is the dichotomy.

Here's what we 'know' from the Bible:

The Bible speaks about [original sin and actual sin].

Thus, here is the question for the infant's resolve.

Does this baby go to heaven or hell?

Surely following and interpreting the Words of the Bible will lead us to an answer, right? Or will it? Logically, we can conclude the baby has performed no [actual] sin. Is God going to smite the baby for continuing to have 'original sin'? Or is 'grace alone' the answer here? Please remember the 4 plausibilities below:

- grace alone (all are now ultimately already saved in the end)?
- grace by faith (some level of belief/trust in Him is required, presumably prior to death)?
- grace by works (what we do, while either believing Him not at all, a little, or a lot?)?
- some necessary combo platter (how much of each IS necessary, if any)?

You are attempting to compute old formulae from philosophers past.

*So have you researched their findings?

 

[cvanwey]

You are attempting to compute old formulae from philosophers past.

*So have you researched their findings?

This one question demonstrates my point. God's Word is confusing. This question should be one of the easiest to answer. Sure, at the end of the day, one can always say, "only God knows". Or, "God is the judge."

The Baby has no 'actual sin'. But the baby still apparently has 'original sin'. According to Chapter and Verse, is this baby met in Heaven, or sent to hell????

If you state the baby gets a pass, then by logic, you are forced to adopt the Christian doctrine of 'grace alone'. If you state the baby cannot have a free pass, then you ascribe to more. Again, please observe the 4 options below, for your consideration:

- grace alone (all are now ultimately already saved in the end)?
- grace by faith (some level of belief/trust in Him is required, presumably prior to death)?
- grace by works (what we do, while either believing Him not at all, a little, or a lot?)?
- some necessary combo platter (how much of each IS necessary, if any)?

 

[Tone]

This one question demonstrates my point. God's Word is confusing. This question should be one of the easiest to answer. Sure, at the end of the day, one can always say, "only God knows". Or, "God is the judge."

The Baby has no 'actual sin'. But the baby still apparently has 'original sin'. According to Chapter and Verse, is this baby met in Heaven, or sent to hell????

If you state the baby gets a pass, then by logic, you are forced to adopt the Christian doctrine of 'grace alone'. If you state the baby cannot have a free pass, then you ascribe to more. Again, please observe the 4 options below, for your consideration:

- grace alone (all are now ultimately already saved in the end)?
- grace by faith (some level of belief/trust in Him is required, presumably prior to death)?
- grace by works (what we do, while either believing Him not at all, a little, or a lot?)?
- some necessary combo platter (how much of each IS necessary, if any)?

Maybe you will find this thread useful:

Many are puzzled by the difference between Greek thought and Hebrew thought.

 

[Tone]

God cares not to clarify for His followers. Not in the slightest it seems.

Hint:

It's not clear according to the letter (mere words).

It's clear in the Person Yahshua the Messiah (Spirit).

And even then, it is not as clear as it will soon be...or should I say, "He is not as clear...".

Yahshua means Yahweh's Salvation. Does this make it a little more clear for you?

1 Corinthians 13:12
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

 

[Tone]

Matthew 13:13
"Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."

1 Corinthians 11:19
"For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you."

Look to Him and not your own understanding.

 

[cvanwey]

Maybe you will find this thread useful:

Many are puzzled by the difference between Greek thought and Hebrew thought.

No @Tone , I don't find this thread useful. I instead see this as not wanting to take accountability for an actual answer. I'm asking (you), point/blank....

Do you ascribe to 'grace alone' for salvation, or does salvation require more? Or, does God's requirements salvation differ, for differing people????

The question regarding a deceased child brings to surface the questions...

I'm pressing you for your conclusion here. You've read the Bible apparently. Again:

- grace alone (all are now ultimately already saved in the end)?
- grace by faith (some level of belief/trust in Him is required, presumably prior to death)?
- grace by works (what we do, while either believing Him not at all, a little, or a lot?)?
- some necessary combo platter (how much of each IS necessary, if any)?

 

[Tone]

Do you ascribe to 'grace alone' for salvation, or does salvation require more? Or, does God's requirements salvation differ, for differing people????

I don't subscribe to Protestantism or Catholicism.

*Your mind is scurrying around within their mental constructs...

**