You die and find yourself in the boot program of the Matrix...

[Gottservant]

Hi there,

I just want you to imagine this: you die and find yourself in the boot program of the Matrix - the one where Morpheous explains the nature of simulation to Neo - only unlike Neo, you have not been jettisoned from the Matrix, just relegated to the boot program, instead of suffering psychosomatic death at the hands of the laws of physics inside the Matrix.

• What thoughts go through your mind?
• Do you try to reboot your portal to the Matrix or can you handle limbo?
• Are you afraid to go back to the Matrix, or do you want something new?
• In what sense do you need "information" at that point, and not some kind of specific data?

Thoughts?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Its not the matrix, its a dream. OR we can never "discover" the fact about either, because by nature they are untestable propositions. Discover entails disclosure, revelation. So please (I ask) stop borrowing analogies from common sense reality, in order to undermine it. "Its a dream" can only make sense when theres a difference between dream and wake. If its all a dream, then where did the concept dream originate... in an erronous prior distinction (between waking and dream). Maybe its all one big epistemic fudgecake. Is that sweet enough?

 

[Gottservant]

Its not the matrix, its a dream. OR we can never "discover" the fact about either, because by nature they are untestable propositions. Discover entails disclosure, revelation. So please (I ask) stop borrowing analogies from common sense reality, in order to undermine it. "Its a dream" can only make sense when theres a difference between dream and wake. If its all a dream, then where did the concept dream originate... in an erronous prior distinction (between waking and dream). Maybe its all one big epistemic fudgecake. Is that sweet enough?

Are you saying its not possible to wake up inside a dream? I think experience contradicts you.

You might argue that if you are awake inside a dream, you are no longer dreaming, but wouldn't the fact that you are still dreaming it cause you to continue to dream?

It's not your argument holds no validity, its that it proposes a conceptual vacuum, where something constructive is the alternative.

Perhaps if you could show that your distinction between waking and dream, leads to better dreams? Or better waking?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Thanks for the response. Got me wondering...

Are you saying its not possible to wake up inside a dream? I think experience contradicts you.

You wake up from a dream, not in a dream.

You might argue that if you are awake inside a dream, you are no longer dreaming, but wouldn't the fact that you are still dreaming it cause you to continue to dream?

Yes you would be dreaming, therefore (by deductive implicaiton) not awake.

It's not your argument holds no validity, its that it proposes a conceptual vacuum, where something constructive is the alternative.

Its not only valid, IMO its sound logically.

Perhaps if you could show that your distinction between waking and dream, leads to better dreams? Or better waking?

Well, better waking, in that it is more clearly though out.

Call dreams black, and waking white. You wake from a dream from black to white. You cant say "its all black", because that undermines the initial basis of the semantic distinction.

Likewise with the matrix illusion, if its "all a computer" the initial distinction between computer and lest say, apples, or babanas, is unsound. So the concept of computer falls apart. Just like the concept of dream.

Where "black" and "white" no longer make sense.

I think that russels paradox, and Godel style reasoning, regarding the set of all sets, may be important too.


If the set of all sets is a matrix or a dream, then is it a member of itself (therefore inconsistent, (a matrix withinn a matrix wuold have to be posited, and so on) ) or not (therefore incopmplete, because we could ask, is the matrix itself a matrix or its it as it really appears).

 

[Gottservant]

Ok. I know its logically "invalid" and you know its "logically" "invalid", but can't you have compassion on people who can't "validly" make that distinction "logically", and play along?

Is it not possible to be structurally sound and also logically superior, on the basis of extra-logical reasoning?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Well I once read through a logical proof that the matrix etc are possible, but unfalsifiable . I suppose its an alternative to belief in the resurrection, or reincarnation, if you die and then wake up. untestable to show any way for certain, you can only make fallible inferences?

 

[Gottservant]

Well I once read through a logical proof that the matrix etc are possible, but unfalsifiable . I suppose its an alternative to belief in the resurrection, or reincarnation, if you die and then wake up. untestable to show any way for certain, you can only make fallible inferences?

Perhaps because consciousness is an emergent property, anyway?

Do you see that by demanding logic be direct, you are circumventing imaginative structural, derivative, substantive solutions that logic could ultimately utilize (even directly, after a lapse of time)?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Well, for me: God transcends all matrix and dream.
, which are merely additional physicalistic explanations. If god doesnt exist, i am by cultured default a scientific realist.

 

[Gottservant]

Well, for me: God transcends all matrix and dream.
, which are merely additional physicalistic explanations. If god doesnt exist, i am by cultured default a scientific realist.

I am curious, what intellectual constructs do you typically explore, using direct application of logic? Scientific realism is fairly meaningless, without some sort of interpretation?

 

[Hoshiyya]

Hi there,

I just want you to imagine this: you die and find yourself in the boot program of the Matrix - the one where Morpheous explains the nature of simulation to Neo - only unlike Neo, you have not been jettisoned from the Matrix, just relegated to the boot program, instead of suffering psychosomatic death at the hands of the laws of physics inside the Matrix.

• What thoughts go through your mind?
• Do you try to reboot your portal to the Matrix or can you handle limbo?
• Are you afraid to go back to the Matrix, or do you want something new?
• In what sense do you need "information" at that point, and not some kind of specific data?

Thoughts?

Are we assuming I am familiar with the movie "the Matrix?"
If so, I would feel like I was in the movie, and would probably think I was in a dream or artificial reality of some kind built to resemble the movie.

If I was not familiar with the movie, I would probably be in need for information, but I would probably also want to return to my normal life in the "illusion".
Most people seem to live better lives in the matrix illusion, than in "zion", where all you can do is shoot at robots and have raves (not my style).

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I am curious, what intellectual constructs do you typically explore, using direct application of logic? Scientific realism is fairly meaningless, without some sort of interpretation?

I have been member of a few faiths, does that count. There I wasnt really using too strict logic, because such things tend to be dealing with the paranormal or the twilight zone of rationality. But as an atheist all all wanted to do was zap, zap, zap (away critically).

 

[nightflight]

Hi there,

I just want you to imagine this: you die and find yourself in the boot program of the Matrix - the one where Morpheous explains the nature of simulation to Neo - only unlike Neo, you have not been jettisoned from the Matrix, just relegated to the boot program, instead of suffering psychosomatic death at the hands of the laws of physics inside the Matrix.

• What thoughts go through your mind?
• Do you try to reboot your portal to the Matrix or can you handle limbo?
• Are you afraid to go back to the Matrix, or do you want something new?
• In what sense do you need "information" at that point, and not some kind of specific data?

Thoughts?

It would be like a lucid dream. I would probably take full advantage to have fun; the temptation would be irresistible. But perhaps if I'm there long enough, I would be like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day and eventually seek higher things.

 

[jacknife]

Load up a Zelda game I'd rather live there.