You can't be moral without God.

[God-free]

Most of us, at some time in our lives, have probably heard someone say, "You can't be moral without God," or something similar. I'd like to put this to an informal test to find out if there really is any difference in the ethics and morality of Christians and people with no religious beliefs. Here are some of my questions.


1.) How do you determine what is good (right) and what is bad (wrong)?

2.) How did you acquire your individual moral ethics?

3.) If you have ever knowingly committed an immoral act:

a.) How did you feel afterward?

b.) Did you do anything to right the wrong, or did you go on as if it never happened?
​

4.) Are there exceptions to your personal rules of conduct? If so, please provide an hypothetical example.


Feel free to ask any questions of your own.

~Barbara

 

[Aeris]

Most of us, at some time in our lives, have probably heard someone say, "You can't be moral without God," or something similar. I'd like to put this to an informal test to find out if there really is any difference in the ethics and morality of Christians and people with no religious beliefs. Here are some of my questions.


1.) How do you determine what is good (right) and what is bad (wrong)?

2.) How did you acquire your individual moral ethics?

3.) If you have ever knowingly committed an immoral act:

a.) How did you feel afterward?

b.) Did you do anything to right the wrong, or did you go on as if it never happened?
​

4.) Are there exceptions to your personal rules of conduct? If so, please provide an hypothetical example.


Feel free to ask any questions of your own.

~Barbara

1) A very basic idea of how I determine right and wrong is how it will affect others, if it has a negative effect on others then it is bad, if it has a positive effect then it is good, if it doesnt affect others then it is neutral. Of course this is just the most basic explaination and there are many other variables which can affect whether I think something is right or wrong.

2) I think it changes as you grow, when I was little it was mostly my moms beliefs but as I grew older I started to incorporate ideas from friends, school, and my own experiences.

3) When I do things I consider wrong I feel bad and try to make up for whatever I did whenever possible.

4) There are exceptions to every rule depending on the situation. I cant really think of any examples right now.

 

[Steezie]

1.) How do you determine what is good (right) and what is bad (wrong)?

If something seems questionable and does not have any valid reasons for doing it, then chances are its wrong. I have an internal moral compass that helps me discern right from wrong. Right usually falls along the lines of helping, protecting, and respecting other people. Wrong is harming, cheating, or mis-treating them.

2.) How did you acquire your individual moral ethics?

Some, such as ideas of social justice, fairness, and equality I acquired growing up. Experiences in early childhood and school helped shape ideas of equality. Some were instinctual and I knew from when I was born, if someone took something from me without asking it made me angry and upset me. As I got a little older and learned to empathize, I figured that if it hurt me, it hurt others and was wrong. I didn't want to be treated that way so there was no reason to treat others that way. I also read a lot of works by people like Che and Marx who stress the idea of social justice and brotherhood.

3.) If you have ever knowingly committed an immoral act:

Yes, but I hasten to amend this. My definition of an immoral act is a bad action for no valid reason. Stealing something because you want it is immoral, stealing something because you need it and cant get it any other way (IE: Food) is not immoral in my book. But yes I have committed immoral actions. I have stolen and lied.

a.) How did you feel afterward?

After the shoplifting I felt excited that I had gotten away with it but after a few times and one very near-run of getting caught I decided that it wasnt worth the risk of getting caught

b.) Did you do anything to right the wrong, or did you go on as if it never happened?

I promised myself I wouldnt do it again, not much I could do to really right it.

4.) Are there exceptions to your personal rules of conduct? If so, please provide an hypothetical example.

MANY. A short version can be found in my sig. I have a sense of honor that many people have told me is archaic. I believe in like for like, treating people as equals, that respect is earned and not given, that we should be as grateful to the man who empties our trash as to the man who developed the PC, that needless decoration and gaudiness is wasteful, that you can be both happy AND poor at the same time, that yes you can die a GOOD death and that its preferable to die standing than running away or kneeling. The list goes on and on.

 

[WatersMoon110]

1.) How do you determine what is good (right) and what is bad (wrong)?

I feel that a given action is "good" if it benefits people (either the friends or family of the person doing it, a group of people, or society as a whole) without harming anyone beyond the person doing it (except in self defense).

I feel that a given action is "bad" if it harms any person outside of the person who does that action (except in self defense)..

2.) How did you acquire your individual moral ethics?

I've taken many ethics and philosophy classes, and I've thought about it a lot. Though I certainly consider many religions to have valuable ethical points, I don't feel that any one religion (beyond, maybe Unitarian Universalism) has everything right.

3.) If you have ever knowingly committed an immoral act:

a.) How did you feel afterward?

I have certainly committed acts that would be considered immoral by many people (premarital sex, stealing from WalMart as a teen) but I have rarely violated my own ethical code, such as it is.

Almost all of the actions I regret are mistakes that I have made that have made others feel unhappy. I certainly consider them unethical, but did not do them knowingly.

b.) Did you do anything to right the wrong, or did you go on as if it never happened?

When I have been able to think of the right thing to do or say to right the mistakes at that time, I have done that. Beyond that, I try to show the people I have offended that I made a mistake and really am a better person through my actions.

4.) Are there exceptions to your personal rules of conduct? If so, please provide an hypothetical example.

I'm sure that there are exceptions, but I can't really think of any examples.

 

[Eudaimonist]

1.) How do you determine what is good (right) and what is bad (wrong)?

The good for me is that which is in harmony with the efforts of human beings to survive and flourish. That which nourishes human life is good for human beings, and that includes what nourishes human psychologies in a way consistent with their ability to rationally attend to the facts of reality that pertain to their interests.

2.) How did you acquire your individual moral ethics?

By many sources, I'm sure. My parents are certainly a strong influence. Philosophers such as Ayn Rand, Aristotle, and David Norton are other strong influences. My own pondering on ethical issues is yet another.

3.) If you have ever knowingly committed an immoral act:

a.) How did you feel afterward?

b.) Did you do anything to right the wrong, or did you go on as if it never happened?
​

I have a conscience, so I have felt bad about it. I will usually apologize and try to make amends, and always resolve to improve my character and not to make the same mistake again.

4.) Are there exceptions to your personal rules of conduct? If so, please provide an hypothetical example.

Exceptions? The classic example is lying to the Nazi soldiers about the Jews hiding in your basement. I think there are certainly morally valid exceptions to honesty, but only in those situations in which they apply.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Autumnleaf]

Without God people define morals. When people define morals part of their morality tends to be to kill people who disagree with them.

 

[καλλιστι]

Without God people define morals. When people define morals part of their morality tends to be to kill people who disagree with them.

Religious nutcases are the ones who like to kill people who disagree with them, so clearly you're missing something.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Religious nutcases are the ones who like to kill people who disagree with them, so clearly you're missing something.

In the 20th Century China and USSR which were both anti-God killed the most people. Guess who defined the morality in those places.

 

[Baggins]

In the 20th Century China and USSR which were both anti-God killed the most people. Guess who defined the morality in those places.

Society same as defines the morality everywhere else.

Recent history has shown a liberalisation in societial morality which has gone hand in hand with a liberalisation politically, for which we should all be thankful

 

[God-free]

Without God people define morals. When people define morals part of their morality tends to be to kill people who disagree with them.

In my opinion, people define both gods and morals. I know for certain that I would never kill anyone simply for believing there is a god. Can you say you'd never kill anyone for not believing there is a god? Especially if you've been told by other believers of some religious authority that your god wants you to?

As far as I'm concerned, individuals can believe whatever they want. What they have in their heads is their own business. However, when those people organize and want to force their beliefs on others who disagree with them, that's where trouble starts.

~Barbara

 

[Autumnleaf]

Society same as defines the morality everywhere else.

Recent history has shown a liberalisation in societial morality which has gone hand in hand with a liberalisation politically, for which we should all be thankful

'Liberalisation is great. We should all be thankful for liberalisation.'

That is about as compelling as, 'I like turkey on Thanksgiving. We should all be thankful for turkey on Thanksgiving.'

Its something someone from the Invasion of the Body Snatchers would say in a trance.

 

[Autumnleaf]

In my opinion, people define both gods and morals. I know for certain that I would never kill anyone simply for believing there is a god. Can you say you'd never kill anyone for not believing there is a god? Especially if you've been told by other believers of some religious authority that your god wants you to?

As far as I'm concerned, individuals can believe whatever they want. What they have in their heads is their own business. However, when those people organize and want to force their beliefs on others who disagree with them, that's where trouble starts.

~Barbara

In 'Enemy at the Gates' Russians were given one rifle per several people and told to go forward and fight the Germans. Those who didn't move forward were shot by the Komissars. In such a situation I would fight the Germans.

 

[TeddyKGB]

In the 20th Century China and USSR which were both anti-God killed the most people. Guess who defined the morality in those places.

I don't know what the exact numbers are, but supposing that overtly religious regimes and cabals have killed only half as many as officially atheist governments is hardly a selling point if the latter have 20 million dead to their credit.

Now, there's an argument to be made about the difference between an atheist government and a government that kills in the name of atheism, but I'm not interested in it right now. I'm willing to draw a conclusion based upon the numbers alone. If my estimates are anywhere near correct, I can say without hesitation that any claims from either side about moral high ground, at least in this context, are utterly bogus.

 

[God-free]

You have not answered my question, Autumnleaf. The example you gave doesn't work because the Russians' own lives were threatened if they did not comply. My question to you did not imply that you would be forced to follow through. So, if you really believed, based on what you'd been told by a religious authority, that your god wanted you to kill non-believers simply because they are non-believers... would that be good enough reason for you to actually do it?

 

[Baggins]

'Liberalisation is great. We should all be thankful for liberalisation.'

That is about as compelling as, 'I like turkey on Thanksgiving. We should all be thankful for turkey on Thanksgiving.'

Its something someone from the Invasion of the Body Snatchers would say in a trance.

Put it this way; are you a big fan of lynching black people?

If not then you have to thank a liberalisation of society's atitudes and morality to thank for the fact that this rarely happens these days and if it does the perpetrators are charged with murder.

Are you in favour of women being allowed to vote? In fact are you in favour of the extension of the voting franchise to all over 18 regardless of gender or property?

If so then you have thank the liberalisation of the laws that allow these things to happen.

I would have thought that it would be self evident to anyone that our morals are more inclusive and less exclusive than they were 100 years ago. I can't imagine many people want to go back to having to be a property owning male in order to be able to vote, or to a time when lynching black people was considered, in large sections of society in some states, acceptable moral behaviour.

In fact it is probably the extension of the voting franchise to women and working class males which has lead to this liberalisation in our morality and laws.

You may have certain quibbles with parts of this process of liberalisation - perhaps with abortion rights for women or marriage rights for homosexuals - but I find it hard to believe that you wouldn't agree with and support most of the liberalisation that has happened over the past centuries. People in our situation have gone from being indentured serfs to people with an equal share in a democratic society, would you decry that?

 

[cantata]

You are certainly forced to make more of an effort to be responsible and well-informed about ethics if you don't believe in gods. What a shame.

 

[ReverendDG]

'Liberalisation is great. We should all be thankful for liberalisation.'

That is about as compelling as, 'I like turkey on Thanksgiving. We should all be thankful for turkey on Thanksgiving.'

Its something someone from the Invasion of the Body Snatchers would say in a trance.

i guess its not really "compelling" to you because you aren't part of the groups that benefited from the liberalization that let them vote, have rights and own property.
i am thankful, unlike you it seems.
what a black and white world you live in, no pun intended
why in the world wouldn't you want the same freedoms you have, for your fellow man?

 

[God-free]

It's been about 1-1/2 days since I posted this topic. So far, of the four people who have answered the questions in the OP, there seems to be a general agreement about how we come by our ethics & morality and how we use them in our day-to-day lives. Since I haven't done so yet, I thought maybe I should answer my own questions.

1.) How do you determine what is good (right) and what is bad (wrong)?

Society, generally determines what is considered acceptable behavior and what is not. These 'rules' can differ depending on our environment (the social and cultural forces that shape the life of a person or a population). On an individual level, I think most humans have an innate ability to empathize and this helps us to determine if an action (or inaction) is right or wrong.

2.) How did you acquire your individual moral ethics?

From my parents first. Then from my own life experiences, my conscience, and my ability to empathize.

3.) If you have ever knowingly committed an immoral act:

a.) How did you feel afterward?

b.) Did you do anything to right the wrong, or did you go on as if it never happened?
​

a.) I felt guilty.

b.) Where an apology was due, I gave it. If repayment was due, I paid it. Where there was no way to right the wrong, I learned from my mistake and try never to repeat it. And, yes, there have been times when I went on about my business as if it had never happened. I'm not perfect. *gasp*

4.) Are there exceptions to your personal rules of conduct? If so, please provide an hypothetical example.

There are exceptions to every rule. If I was starving, and had no money to buy food, I would steal it out of desperation. If I was homeless, and no shelter was available, I would trespass on anothers' property in order to protect myself from the elements. These are basic survival instincts that I think we all have.

I'm hoping more people will answer the questions in the OP. I think that some, who currently feel that "You can't be moral without God" will realize that it just isn't true.

~Barbara

 

[selfinflikted]

1.) How do you determine what is good (right) and what is bad (wrong)?

The Golden Rule, is a good place to start. That, and my upbringing and the society in which I live plays a large role as well.

2.) How did you acquire your individual moral ethics?

See above.

3.) If you have ever knowingly committed an immoral act:

a.) How did you feel afterward?​

Bad.

b.) Did you do anything to right the wrong, or did you go on as if it never happened?

I did everything I could to make up for it.
​

4.) Are there exceptions to your personal rules of conduct? If so, please provide an hypothetical example.

Of course. There are exceptions to every rule. For example, I'm against violence. However, if a gay basher one day decided to try to smack me around, he better expect me to smack back. This F .A .G ain't no sissy. /shrug. In that case, I wouldn't mind whipping his ass.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Most of us, at some time in our lives, have probably heard someone say, "You can't be moral without God," or something similar. I'd like to put this to an informal test to find out if there really is any difference in the ethics and morality of Christians and people with no religious beliefs. Here are some of my questions.


1.) How do you determine what is good (right) and what is bad (wrong)?

2.) How did you acquire your individual moral ethics?

3.) If you have ever knowingly committed an immoral act:

a.) How did you feel afterward?

b.) Did you do anything to right the wrong, or did you go on as if it never happened?
​

4.) Are there exceptions to your personal rules of conduct? If so, please provide an hypothetical example.


Feel free to ask any questions of your own.

~Barbara

1. I am a divine command moralist, but this intergrated with society leads me to appear to be a utilitarianism with some deontology and a touch of relativism.

2. I haven't fully acquired them yet, still working on large parts of them. In the end, it is an attempt at a morality which can be agreed by everyone given basic logic and the ability to follow it.

3.a. Usually bad.
3.b. Sometimes I did right it, sometimes there was nothing to right.

4. While as of now there are, I won't be happy with the system till there are none.