YOU cannot keep God's commands, He does it through you

[Shulamite]

"God commands men everywhere to repent"... Acts 17:30

None of us can obey any of God's commands in and of ourselves. If we can choose to obey His commands, apart from His enabling, then we get the credit.

Let's put it another way:
Can we keep every letter of the Law? Can we keep the 10 commandments? If we break one of these commandments or one letter of the Law, we are in sin of tresspassing against the entire Law!

Why then does God give commands we are unable to keep in our own strength? Some would argue that since God gave the command, then "man" must be able to make a free-will choice to obey that command. However, we see that the Command was given to SHOW we need Him to bring us to repentance. Just as the Law was given to SHOW us sin! Paul said that "I would not know sin unless it was for the Law." We couldn't keep the Law anymore than we can obey the command to repent!

Every command God gives is to show us that only He can fulfill that Law/Command IN US. His Spirit carries out His own commands in and through us and He gets the credit.

With all respect, Arminians argue that if God commands it, then logic dictates that we must be "able" to carry it out. This is not true. If this line of reasoning is true, then why don't we ALL obey the Law in it's entirety? The Law/Commands were given to SHOW sin and the need of God to "Work and will in us to accomplish His good pleasure."

"Apart from Me, you can do nothing, the flesh profits nothing."

If we can repent, which is a command given by God to His own, then we don't need the work of the Spirit to enable this. We can do this by ourselves, which gives us the credit for repentance. Repentance is a gift of God.

Again, God commands us things we cannot keep in order to show us that He is the One living in us to accomplish that very "will" He commanded.

"Unless I wash you, you have no part with Me." He must do the washing, He must enable us to repent, we cannot do either ourselves. It's all His work IN us.

 

[Rick Otto]

Wish I'd said that.
Boom, boom. Out go the saved-by-my-free-will-decision lights.
You go, girl!

 

[Pinkman]

"If God has already decided who will be saved and irresistibly calls them, does it really matter whether I witness or not?"

This was the logic of those who told William Carey,
"Sit down, young man! If God wants to save the people in India, he can well do so without your help."

 

[Pinkman]

Big problem for me is what do I do with these texts :-

2 Pet. 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1 Tim. 2:4 (God) desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Jn. 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Jn. 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment . . . "

1 Jn. 2:2 He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

2 Cor. 5:19 God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

1 Tim. 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. !!!

Matt. 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

I cannot just write the off. There is too much Biblical evidence.

I cannot just interpret words like 'all' as meaning 'all types of" ( Ref Surgeon's grammatical gunpowder sermon 1516 ).

So is there something we are all missing that reconciles these verses or is the Bible contradictory and atheists e.g Dawkins are justified in there views ?

 

[Pinkman]

Acts 14:15-17 You should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them. 16 And in the generations gone by He permitted all the nations to go their own ways; 17 and yet He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good and gave you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.

 

[Rick Otto]

"If God has already decided who will be saved and irresistibly calls them, does it really matter whether I witness or not?"

It matters to God because He determined it.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Pinkman;58743928]Big problem for me is what do I do with these texts :-

2 Pet. 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

All you have to do is look who he is talking to. KJV helps:
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
"Us" is who he is addressing. You learn that by reading who he is talking to back in the 1st chapter:
[1] Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

1 Tim. 2:4 (God) desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Jn. 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Jn. 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment . . . "
1 Jn. 2:2 He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
2 Cor. 5:19 God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

These all have to do with understanding idiomatic expression. It was a common expression "salvation is of the Jews" which meant salvation is for ONLY Jews, the "chosen race". It was also common to refer to Gentiles as "the world"
1 Tim. 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. !!!

Matt. 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."

I cannot just write the off. There is too much Biblical evidence.

I cannot just interpret words like 'all' as meaning 'all types of" ( Ref Surgeon's grammatical gunpowder sermon 1516 ).

So is there something we are all missing that reconciles these verses or is the Bible contradictory and atheists e.g Dawkins are justified in there views ?[/quote]
Firstly we are not "all" missing it.
Try understanding the idiom.
1Tim2:4:Who will have all men to be saved[SIZE=+1],.... The salvation which God wills that all men should enjoy, is not a mere possibility of salvation, or a mere putting them into a salvable state; or an offer of salvation to them; or a proposal of sufficient means of it to all in his word; but a real, certain, and actual salvation, which he has determined they shall have; and is sure from his own appointment, from the provision of Christ as a Saviour for them, from the covenant of grace, in which everything is secured necessary for it, and from the mission of Christ to effect it, and from its being effected by him: wherefore the will of God, that all men should be saved, is not a conditional will, or what depends on the will of man, or on anything to be performed by him, for then none might be saved; and if any should, it would be of him that willeth, contrary to the express words of Scripture; but it is an absolute and unconditional will respecting their salvation, and which infallibly secures it: nor is it such a will as is distinguishable into antecedent and consequent; with the former of which it is said, God wills the salvation of all men, as they are his creatures, and the work of his hands; and with the latter he wills, or not wills it, according to their future conduct and behaviour; but the will of God concerning man's salvation is entirely one, invariable, unalterable, and unchangeable: nor is it merely his will of approbation or complacency, which expresses only what would be grateful and well pleasing, should it be, and which is not always fulfilled; but it is his ordaining, purposing, and determining will, which is never resisted, so as to be frustrated, but is always accomplished: the will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men; it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment: rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1Ti 2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world, the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones. Moreover, the same persons God would have saved, he would have also

come to the knowledge of the truth[SIZE=+1]: of Christ, who is the truth, and to faith in him, and of all the truth of the Gospel, as it is in Jesus; not merely to a notional knowledge of it, which persons may arrive unto, and not be saved, but a spiritual and experimental knowledge of it; and all that are saved are brought to such a knowledge, which is owing to the sovereign will and good pleasure of God, who hides the knowledge of Gospel truths from the wise and prudent, and reveals them to babes: whence it appears, that it is not his will with respect to every individual of mankind; that they should thus come to the knowledge of the truth; for was it his will they should, he would, no doubt, give to every man the means of it, which he has not, nor does he; he suffered all nations to walk in their own ways, and overlooked their times of ignorance, and sent no message nor messenger to inform them of his will; he gave his word to Jacob, and his statutes unto Israel only; and the Gospel is now sent into one part of the world, and not another; and where it does come, it is hid to the most; many are given up to strong delusions to believe a lie, and few are savingly and experimentally acquainted with the truths of the Gospel; though all that are saved are brought to the knowledge of such truths as are necessary to salvation; for they are chosen to it through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth. -John Gill

[/SIZE][/SIZE]

 

[Pinkman]

Hi Rick

John Gill sure does use long sentences. Near the end it says "many are given up to strong delusions to believe a lie,". I must sound nit picky but 'given up'. Does that mean they were OK, went astray and God then witnessed to them (I am quoting Cygnus again - Sorry). They would not turn back so God finally gave up on them ?

If CBHC is not exhausted I have no doubt he will counter Jon Gill very effectively.

What do you say to those who don't/cannot go along with Gill's position. Are they saved ?

Maybe non-calvinists are preordained not to believe Calvinistic soteriology. If that is the case and they are still saved anyway then what does it all matter ?

If preference is not pride then here is mine. It makes more sense to me :-

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Pinkman;Hi Rick
John Gill sure does use long sentences.

He may have been impressed with our brevity.

Near the end it says "many are given up to strong delusions to believe a lie,". I must sound nit picky but 'given up'. Does that mean they were OK, went astray and God then witnessed to them (I am quoting Cygnus again - Sorry). They would not turn back so God finally gave up on them ?

How would it?

If CBHC is not exhausted I have no doubt he will counter Jon Gill very effectively.

Possible, but not probable.

What do you say to those who don't/cannot go along with Gill's position. Are they saved ?

They'll all burn in hell. (Just kidding, I have a difficult time taking such questions seriously.) The very idea of intellectual assent being salvific is the very problem of free-will-decision-salvation.

Maybe non-calvinists are preordained not to believe Calvinistic soteriology. If that is the case and they are still saved anyway then what does it all matter ?

Matter to whom? To you? If I knew you were going to blow your brains out if I told you the truth, I would tell you a fabulous lie.

 

[cygnusx1]

haayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy !!! Rick's back

hi friend

 

[Pinkman]

What do you say to those who don't/cannot go along with Gill's position. Are they saved ?
They'll all burn in hell. (Just kidding, I have a difficult time taking such questions seriously.)



Many if not most Christians are not of the Calvinist persuasion. The question is serious for them whether they are just mistaken in there beliefs or predestined to think that way.

Maybe they just get their toes singed.

 

[Shulamite]

What do you say to those who don't/cannot go along with Gill's position. Are they saved ?
They'll all burn in hell. (Just kidding, I have a difficult time taking such questions seriously.)



Many if not most Christians are not of the Calvinist persuasion. The question is serious for them whether they are just mistaken in there beliefs or predestined to think that way.

Maybe they just get their toes singed.

Hi Pinkman
The scripture you posted that states: "God has measured out to EACH a measure of faith" is 100% correct!
We are all given a portion (or measure of faith) by God. I tend to picture the story of the parable of the talents that Jesus told. (Let me see if I can get my thoughts clear enough on this one to relay it properly! Ive had a busy couple days and my thoughts are jumbled! LOL)
Okay here goes:

Jesus said that to one man is given "2 talents" to another man is given "3" and to another "4 or 5", each according to his ability (We know that God gives the ability to each of us and determines what we get from Him). Well, I asked the Lord a few months ago about this difference in the measures of faith that we each receive and He laid on my heart that the reason there could be so many disputes between brothers and sisters over issues of maturity, doctrine and the "meat" of the Word is this: The man/woman who has the "5" talents' worth of faith goes to discuss things with a man/woman who has only been given "2 talents' worth of faith. The one that has been given a greater measure of understanding or faith will discuss things with those given a smaller "portion of faith" and it could cause much conflict, misunderstanding and confusion. I feel the Lord has dealt with me in such a way that if He gives me something I know is from Him and it's mocked or misunderstood by those around me or stepped on, then I have to understand that my brother or sister has not been given that Word from the Lord and that I need to only speak of what will edify that person and not just speak of what I know or have tasted of the Lord.

Whew... okay, did I get all that out clearly? LOL

Anyway, that was a good scripture to use "God measures out a portion of faith to EACH".. I guess it's rather like me trying to explain a mature, adult issue with my 13 year old son and he just stares at me and says, "HUH????" .. it's not because he's any less a child of God or a human being, but that he is not yet ready to receive such mature discussion and so I have to tailor my discussions with him on a level a 13 year old will grasp. I think we each, as brothers and sisters, need to realize that as we share what the Lord has given us (and we feel confirmed it's from Him!) we need to tread carefully, realizing that not everyone is at the same maturity level as someone else.

Let's face it, the Apostle Paul sure saw and experienced more than I have or probably will until the Lord takes me home one day and yet I am still just as much a child of God as Paul was/is!

 

[Pinkman]

Hi Pinkman
The scripture you posted that states: "God has measured out to EACH a measure of faith" is 100% correct!
We are all given a portion (or measure of faith) by God. I tend to picture the story of the parable of the talents that Jesus told. (Let me see if I can get my thoughts clear enough on this one to relay it properly! Ive had a busy couple days and my thoughts are jumbled! LOL)
Okay here goes:

Jesus said that to one man is given "2 talents" to another man is given "3" and to another "4 or 5", each according to his ability (We know that God gives the ability to each of us and determines what we get from Him). Well, I asked the Lord a few months ago about this difference in the measures of faith that we each receive and He laid on my heart that the reason there could be so many disputes between brothers and sisters over issues of maturity, doctrine and the "meat" of the Word is this: The man/woman who has the "5" talents' worth of faith goes to discuss things with a man/woman who has only been given "2 talents' worth of faith. The one that has been given a greater measure of understanding or faith will discuss things with those given a smaller "portion of faith" and it could cause much conflict, misunderstanding and confusion. I feel the Lord has dealt with me in such a way that if He gives me something I know is from Him and it's mocked or misunderstood by those around me or stepped on, then I have to understand that my brother or sister has not been given that Word from the Lord and that I need to only speak of what will edify that person and not just speak of what I know or have tasted of the Lord.

Whew... okay, did I get all that out clearly? LOL

Anyway, that was a good scripture to use "God measures out a portion of faith to EACH".. I guess it's rather like me trying to explain a mature, adult issue with my 13 year old son and he just stares at me and says, "HUH????" .. it's not because he's any less a child of God or a human being, but that he is not yet ready to receive such mature discussion and so I have to tailor my discussions with him on a level a 13 year old will grasp. I think we each, as brothers and sisters, need to realize that as we share what the Lord has given us (and we feel confirmed it's from Him!) we need to tread carefully, realizing that not everyone is at the same maturity level as someone else.

Let's face it, the Apostle Paul sure saw and experienced more than I have or probably will until the Lord takes me home one day and yet I am still just as much a child of God as Paul was/is!

Whew... okay, did I get all that out clearly? LOL
Yes you did. I also agree 100%.

I maintain though that as all have been given a measure. Maybe some more than others but those with more then more will be expected of them. Each one being judged according to his measure.

Thus I claim all thing are made equal and fair. So e,g if a baby dies in infancy it wil be judged on little and so on.

Hope I am as clear as you were.

Regs - PM

 

[Shulamite]

Whew... okay, did I get all that out clearly? LOL
Yes you did. I also agree 100%.

I maintain though that as all have been given a measure. Maybe some more than others but those with more then more will be expected of them. Each one being judged according to his measure.

Thus I claim all thing are made equal and fair. So e,g if a baby dies in infancy it wil be judged on little and so on.

Hope I am as clear as you were.

Regs - PM

I won't chase the "infant" argument/disussion right now because I know you wouldn't agree with my answer ...so.... I will stick with the subject we both DO agree on.. I agree that "to the one who is given much, much is required."
True. If we have been given things of the Lord, a true test of character is how we respond to others with the measure we are given. The Lord has laid that on my heart many times. I am not always good at that. I admit that I am passionate about what He has shown me, but I want to be sure that I respond in a way that honors Him, even when someone disagrees with me.

 

[Pinkman]

I won't chase the "infant" argument/disussion right now because I know you wouldn't agree with my answer ...so.... I will stick with the subject we both DO agree on.. I agree that "to the one who is given much, much is required."
...

So to one who is give nothing, how much is required of him ?

The bottom line for me is that if God created one a reprobate, unable to receive any light, even if given, then how can God hold that person responsible.

In my own country we have 'closet calvinist'. That is not meant to be an attack on all calvinist per se. These guys are a very poor advert for calvinism. A favorite phrase is 'God's sovereignty vs man responsibility'. Ask them to explain this and a very short drive up a gum tree follows.

I believe as the text below states, ALL men receive some light. They will be condemned for their own sins. Things they could have freely chosen against doing.

 

[Biff]

Dear Shulamite,

You are correct, however in order for man to repent, etc., he must take part in the actual doing of and honoring and follow through of his repentance. It's not some 2 bit cheap thing, but is wrought in and by the Holy God.
In other words, God does it ALL - YES - He does what is necessary to bring us there - to see it, to know/understand our need. BUT in order to do it God does not treat us like a bunch of Zombies or Puppets.

He knows our need to repent, to turn away from the world, and turn to Him. He brings us to the place of repentance!!! The rest is up to us. HE brings us there BUT leaves it up to us to repent and allow Him into our hearts.

Our Hearts need to be changed and we are made to realize that, But it is only by God that He gives us a New Heart (and New mind) by putting His Spirit, a Right Spirit, within us. He doesn't do it FOR us, but [by bringing us to the place of repentance) but let's us see the consequences and decide.
The scriptures are repleat with: "The choice [of whether to obey Him or not] is ours and ours alone!" GOD is Holy - He cannot sin - and that means He treats Every man fairly and justly giving them the same opportunity to obey Him, by coming to Him for Life and For life.
(Because everyone has a conscience!)

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Biff

 

[Pinkman]

A question.

How many verses in the Bible state God made any man a reprobate ? Hardened yes, gave over to their desires yes but actually pre ordained to be a reprobate before the foundation of the world.

 

[Shulamite]

A question.

How many verses in the Bible state God made any man a reprobate ? Hardened yes, gave over to their desires yes but actually pre ordained to be a reprobate before the foundation of the world.

Pinkman, I believe the following scriptures will answer this for you: (by the way, I am not listing these as though they are easy to read or with a heartless attitude, but because these scriptures say what they say).

Romans 9:22..."What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?

Proverbs 16:4.." The LORD works out everything for his own ends--even the wicked for a day of disaster."

1 Peter 2:8.." Peter 2:8 and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for." (and Who destined them for this? )

God deals each man a measure of faith.... notice the verse does not say "shulamite deals herself a measure of faith"..

God measures out saving faith to Whom He wills. He prepares vessels of mercy BEFOREHAND. He also prepares vessels of wrath BEFOREHAND.

 

[Pinkman]

God deals each man a measure of faith.... notice the verse does not say "shulamite deals herself a measure of faith"..

Nobody has said she did. Not one non Calvinist nor Arminian. I'm puzzled why you should think they did.

 

[Rick Otto]

Because to suggest a person's will isn't so injured by Adam's transgression that he can make an act of faith (choose to love God), is contradictory to 1Cor2:14 & implies imho that God doesn't in fact save, our decision to "accept" or "receive" His gift is (to put it pointedly) the deciding factor.
So that ipso facto makes that specific, indispensible piece of glory our own doing.
Doesn't it?