"You are Peter, and upon this rock..."

Root of Jesse · Jun 25, 2015

laternonjuror said:
Madam, I,ve been a Catholic all my life, to put it in a clearer fashion, I've been a seeker after Christ!When we read or study about the early church, we have to study the early fathers, first three centuries. As far as I can tell, there's no proof at all of the Petrine commission descending to The Bishop of Rome! What has been proffered on this blog are instances of the Roman Bishop doing his work as a bishop of the Suburbicarian See of Rome, putting his point of view on various matters, such as the dating of Easter and such things, writing to an errant Roman colony and to the Council of Chalcedon. We have been given instances of comments by fathers in the ,'luckily,'outdated language used at that time. These don't mean anything .
I cannot believe that Christ gave such awsome authority to a series of men and then didn't tell anybody else? Pius X, declared,
"The Pope is not only representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself hidden under the veil of flesh.
Does the pope speak?
It is Jesus Christ Himself Who speaks."

" You know that I am the Holy father, the representative of God on earth." The Vicar of Christ,
which means that I am God on earth!"
Pius XI.

All this and much more and we were not told about it?
It took 1870 years before it was made official and even then Roman Catholic bishops spoke out against it.

OK, so what about Clement, the Bishop of Rome, Pope in the very Early Church, who sent a disciplinary letter to the Corinthians to correct mistakes they made in their local church? Is that not a bishop of Rome acting in matters of faith and morals speaking to the entire Church? That's what the Pope is.
Regarding canonizing dogma, just because it was declared dogma at one point does not, in any way, mean that the dogma wasn't believed very widely prior.

Root of Jesse · Jun 25, 2015

Rick Otto said:
You can't have it both ways... the bishops and, priests are the church... the church acted criminally.
It's the biggest church in the world, and let's not pretend the abuse didn't happen before it started getting reported.

That guy in Oklahoma that lopped off the head of one woman and tried to do so to another...was he 'the business' No. Same to be said with the Church. The Church is not the bishops and priests. They are independent parts of the church. So, no, we don't condemn the entire Church because someone in the priesthood or episcopacy did something wrong. Lastly, who's pretending anything? Like Gamaliel said, "If the Church is of God, nothing we can do will destroy it. If it's not, it will pass away on its own." (paraphrase). The Church has been here for 2000 years, now, despite everything humans did, whether they tried to or not, to destroy it.

Root of Jesse · Jun 25, 2015

ken777 said:
How on earth do people accept this when there were some truly dreadful Popes?

Obviously Jesus was not talking about the organisational structure when He spoke of the Church.
.

Quite obviously, there were bad popes, about 8%. But where they're authoritative, they made no errors in matters of faith and morals.

laternonjuror · Jun 25, 2015

Open Heart said:
So? Henry the 8th broke with Rome. He took the Church of England off onto its own track. You are catholic, but not Catholic.

Henry VIII, didn't break with Rome! Show when he did it! He and the Pope had joint skulduggery to get rid of the Queen of England, it was unworthy of them both. Henry paid a fortune in Bribes, to both the Court of Rome and to the Pope for an annulment! Being Catholics the English wouldn't have accepted, with any grace, a divorce, it being anti catholic!
The pope became the prisoner of the Emperor of Germany and refused Henry's request! He didn't refund the money, neither did the Cardinals of the Papish court. Henry was left red faced and angry but he didn't leave the Church! Instead he turned to the Metropolitan of the English Church, whom, he had received from the papacy and found that it was in that mans capacity to grant an annulment anyway and for less money! There had been a struggle through three or four Councils regarding the pope's authority and the Papacy had been defeated, because the Church had no army of it's own and it was left to the Continental royalty to enforce the decisions, the pope being a monarch and one of the side as it were, when the pope refused to carry out his side of the bargain there was no way the Councilists had to enforce their side of the agreement . In short Henry pointed out that no bishop had a right to interfere ,without permission, in another bishop's see. This infuriated the Popes and caused them to excommunicate Henry> The Church in England was not involved till the Pope in Eliza's time tried to remove her from the throne! That was many years later!

Meowzltov · Jun 25, 2015

laternonjuror said:
Henry VIII, didn't break with Rome! Show when he did it! He and the Pope had joint skulduggery to get rid of the Queen of England, it was unworthy of them both.

Oh puhleeze. This is just too much. I'm not sure if you really believe this or if you are just saying it to get me off your back, but giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll simply say that it flies in the face of well known history. Everyone knows that Henry wanted an heir, which he couldn't get from his wife. He wanted a divorce so that he could marry another, and when the Pope would not grant him a divorce, he decided to break with Rome and become the head of his own Church. THAT is the origin of the Church of England. Honestly, do you really really not know that?

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jun 25, 2015

Rick Otto · Jun 25, 2015

Root of Jesse said:
That guy in Oklahoma that lopped off the head of one woman and tried to do so to another...was he 'the business' No. Same to be said with the Church. The Church is not the bishops and priests. They are independent parts of the church. So, no, we don't condemn the entire Church because someone in the priesthood or episcopacy did something wrong. Lastly, who's pretending anything? Like Gamaliel said, "If the Church is of God, nothing we can do will destroy it. If it's not, it will pass away on its own." (paraphrase). The Church has been here for 2000 years, now, despite everything humans did, whether they tried to or not, to destroy it.

That's one way of looking at it.

Rick Otto · Jun 25, 2015

Open Heart said:
Oh puhleeze. This is just too much. I'm not sure if you really believe this or if you are just saying it to get me off your back, but giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll simply say that it flies in the face of well known history. Everyone knows that Henry wanted an heir, which he couldn't get from his wife. He wanted a divorce so that he could marry another, and when the Pope would not grant him a divorce, he decided to break with Rome and become the head of his own Church. THAT is the origin of the Church of England. Honestly, do you really really not know that?

Pretty cute for a history geek. (lol)
That's pretty much the way I understood it.

ken777 · Jun 25, 2015

Root of Jesse said:
Quite obviously, there were bad popes, about 8%. But where they're authoritative, they made no errors in matters of faith and morals.

Not sure what criteria is used to arrive at 8% but judging by behavior that is acceptable today, it was much greater.

.

ken777 · Jun 25, 2015

laternonjuror said:
The Church in England was not involved till the Pope in Eliza's time tried to remove her from the phone!

I had the same trouble as the Pope so that's why I bought my daughter her own phone

.

prodromos · Jun 25, 2015

Root of Jesse said:
Quite obviously, there were bad popes, about 8%. But where they're authoritative, they made no errors in matters of faith and morals.

In other words, "Do as I say, not as I do"?

Root of Jesse · Jun 26, 2015

prodromos said:
In other words, "Do as I say, not as I do"?

Yeah. So?

Root of Jesse · Jun 26, 2015

ken777 said:
Not sure what criteria is used to arrive at 8% but judging by behavior that is acceptable today, it was much greater.

.

Not sure what critieria is used to arrive at "acceptable". The Church readily acknowledges that there were bad people who became Pope. Shrug.

GreekOrthodox · Jun 26, 2015

ken777 said:
I had the same trouble as the Pope so that's why I bought my daughter her own phone .

And now you cant get her off of it?
(Father of a 16 yr old daughter who knows EVERYTHING!!!)

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 26, 2015

Root of Jesse said:
Not sure what critieria is used to arrive at "acceptable". The Church readily acknowledges that there were bad people who became Pope. Shrug.

I am sure Protestant churches have a few bad apples in the barrel.

http://listverse.com/2007/08/17/top-10-most-wicked-popes/

Out of the 266 Popes to have ruled the Catholic Church, ten in particular stand out for their wickedness. This is a list of the ten with a description of their errors and faults.
Top 10 evil popes

1. Liberius,
2. Honorius I
3. Stephen VI
4. John XII
5. Benedict IX, Benedict IX, reigned 1032-1048
6. Boniface VIII,
7. Urban VI, reigned 1378-1389
8. Alexander VI,
9. Leo X,
10. Clement VII,

Top 25 of most evil people:

Pope Pius XII
Pope Alexander VI
Pope Damasus I
Pope Sergius III
Pope Innocent III
Pope Boniface VIII
Pope Adrian IV
Pope Pius IX
Pope Urban II

.

prodromos · Jun 26, 2015

Root of Jesse said:
Yeah. So?

Always preach the gospel. If necessary, use words.

Rick Otto · Jun 27, 2015

prodromos said:
Always preach the gospel. If necessary, use words.

Credibility would require it, unless denial and redefinition are your routine.

Rick Otto · Jun 27, 2015

LittleLambofJesus said:
I am sure Protestant churches have a few bad apples in the barrel.

http://listverse.com/2007/08/17/top-10-most-wicked-popes/

Out of the 266 Popes to have ruled the Catholic Church, ten in particular stand out for their wickedness. This is a list of the ten with a description of their errors and faults.
Top 10 evil popes

1. Liberius,
2. Honorius I
3. Stephen VI
4. John XII
5. Benedict IX, Benedict IX, reigned 1032-1048
6. Boniface VIII,
7. Urban VI, reigned 1378-1389
8. Alexander VI,
9. Leo X,
10. Clement VII,

Top 25 of most evil people:

Pope Pius XII
Pope Alexander VI
Pope Damasus I
Pope Sergius III
Pope Innocent III
Pope Boniface VIII
Pope Adrian IV
Pope Pius IX
Pope Urban II

.

lol,... I just thought of this...
" Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

ChristsSoldier115 · Jun 27, 2015

LittleLambofJesus said:
I am sure Protestant churches have a few bad apples in the barrel.

http://listverse.com/2007/08/17/top-10-most-wicked-popes/

Out of the 266 Popes to have ruled the Catholic Church, ten in particular stand out for their wickedness. This is a list of the ten with a description of their errors and faults.
Top 10 evil popes

1. Liberius,
2. Honorius I
3. Stephen VI
4. John XII
5. Benedict IX, Benedict IX, reigned 1032-1048
6. Boniface VIII,
7. Urban VI, reigned 1378-1389
8. Alexander VI,
9. Leo X,
10. Clement VII,

Top 25 of most evil people:

Pope Pius XII
Pope Alexander VI
Pope Damasus I
Pope Sergius III
Pope Innocent III
Pope Boniface VIII
Pope Adrian IV
Pope Pius IX
Pope Urban II

.

Wasn't it Innocent III who made the claim that the secular rulers are subject to the Pope? What about that time when there were like 3 popes? Which one of those were God's chosen Vicar?

laternonjuror · Jun 28, 2015

ChristsSoldier115 said:
Wasn't it Innocent III who made the claim that the secular rulers are subject to the Pope? What about that time when there were like 3 popes? Which one of those were God's chosen Vicar?

There was a struggle all through the middle ages to control the flights of fancy emanating from Rome and they occupied the time of four out of five Councils in the middle ages! Two popes were sacked and one took a runner, as they do say! One of them was imprisoned. Trouble was, the Church said officially, through one Council, that the Council's were superior to the pope and was regretably,unable to make their point stand. They had no soldiers, it was left to the monarchs of Europe to enforce the Catholic attitude, how-and-ever, the pope, like the them was a king and they wouldn't disturb the social order! They sold out!

"You are Peter, and upon this rock..."

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