You all have CONFUSED me! LOL

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I had a debate with the 'oneness' brigade on a usenet newsgroup. By the time I had finished (after quite a number of evenings) I felt drained of all faith and motivation. I felt tired and weary.

Debates like this are a quicksand that can drain you right out. It seems to be a waste of time debating with people who have a mindset and will not change their views for all the debating.

It is better to leave the debate and concentrate on the things both parties agree on. It would be a good exercise for someone to do two lists: one of the things both sides agree on, and the other of the things you disagree on.

If you can find a point of fellowship based on the things you agree on, then you are better off all round.

Let's face it. Oneness Pentecostals are not going to convert Trinitarians, and Trinitarians are not going to convert Oneness Pentecostals. Both groups are merely going to beat each other up trying.

Paul said "I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus and Him crucified." That would be a good start, wouldn't it?

 

[He put me back together]

I really think we've overreacted about the Trinity/Oneness thing.

And how.

Both of us.

These theological traditions really don't matter that much.

Neither does the distinction of saying "In the name of Jesus" or "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" when we baptise...as if there was any indication in the Scriptures that baptising in His name had anything to do with saying so during the ritual itself.

 

[Br_Rhoades]

I really think we've overreacted about the Trinity/Oneness thing.

And how.

Both of us.

These theological traditions really don't matter that much.

Neither does the distinction of saying "In the name of Jesus" or "In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" when we baptize...as if there was any indication in the Scriptures that baptizing in His name had anything to do with saying so during the ritual itself.

That is why I keep brining up the Apostles creed; I think (if I understand this board correctly) the creed is the basis of calling one a Christian or not a Christian. If the UPC or ‘Oneness’ has no real problem with this statement of faith then they should step up and say so. I know that in Pentecost and many Baptist churches we have deep problems with creeds that are not part of the Holy Bible, in the case of the Apostles creed it is based on the Holy Bible and has clear roots in rightly divided word of truth. The creed is like a framework that we can agree in, and it put a clear marker against some un-Christian thinking and doctrines built against the Holy Bible. If the UPC is not an openly false Christian organization then they would not have any problems with the Apostles creed, not saying that we do not have some widely accepted anti-Anointing groups that are compliant to the creed and seen on this board as ‘Christian’ and allowed to post freely.

 

[mortsmune]

You will hear that the doctrine of the Trinity came out of the Council of Nicaea, and while it is true that it was formally put into a doctrine at that point, the doctrine of the Trinity is from the Bible. Briefly stated, the Trinity is the belief that there are three persons, distinct yet not separate, that are One God. In some way that is not truly possible for us to fully comprehend, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons, yet they are also One. This is the conclusion that must be reached from scriptures if you take into consideration the following facts from the Bible:
1. The three persons are all mentioned, and they are all persons (they have mind, emotion, and will; they are not impersonal forces).
2. At the baptism of Jesus, all three are manifested as distinct entities. Jesus is standing there Himself in the flesh. The Father speaks from Heaven. The Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus.
3. All three are referred to as God.
4. We are told that God created the universe through and by Jesus and that every created thing was created by Jesus.
5. All three are eternal.
6. They are distinct from one another: The Father loves the Son. The Son does what He hears the Father say. The Father forsook the Son on the cross. The Son and the Father both send the Spirit. The Spirit bears witness of Jesus and does not speak of Himself.
7. We are told that the Father makes Jesus preeminent over all things.
8. The Bible is everywhere clear that there is only One God.
Therefore, the Trinity.

 

[Susans_Hope]

I believe in Both also. I also agree with the one who posted about prayer, I pray to my Father in Heaven through Jesus his son, as Jesus goes before the Father for me.
God is so awsome and he is so many things including LOVE! I believe all three are one but each has individuality. Jesus is a seperate person with thoughts and feelings, as is the Holy Sprit......... If we can grieve the Holy Spirit then the Holy Spirit has feelings! Jesus is many things to us as is the Holy Spirit and all three are one.
We cannot fully understand the oneness of it I don't think......... It is all a matter of faith

Blessings
Susan

 

[JesusFreak78]

I believe in Both also. I also agree with the one who posted about prayer, I pray to my Father in Heaven through Jesus his son, as Jesus goes before the Father for me.
God is so awsome and he is so many things including LOVE! I believe all three are one but each has individuality. Jesus is a seperate person with thoughts and feelings, as is the Holy Sprit......... If we can grieve the Holy Spirit then the Holy Spirit has feelings! Jesus is many things to us as is the Holy Spirit and all three are one.
We cannot fully understand the oneness of it I don't think......... It is all a matter of faith

Blessings
Susan

That was a very good way to put it in. Thanks.

 

[All4Christ]

i'd also like to know what oneness pentecostals think about the apostle's creed....it keeps on getting ignored, and it'd be very insightful.

 

[LovesTheLord]

i'd also like to know what oneness pentecostals think about the apostle's creed....it keeps on getting ignored, and it'd be very insightful.

The Apostles' Creed

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. The third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

We believe in all of it, save the fact that Jesus is mentioned seated at the right hand of the Father. Of course the Bible mentions this, but we know that throughout the Bible, the right hand of God is = to power. God also mentions numerous other people to be seated at His right hand, so we take this symbolically and not literally. Most people don't realize that oneness and a lot of trinitarians believe the same thing. I was raised Baptist (trinitarian) and realized after converting to Pentecostal that my view of the Godhead never changed. The reason oneness people disagree with the trinitarian concept is that it implies that by three "persons", there are three embodiements of God, hence three "God's" (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit). We DO believe that God reveals Himself has all three roles, but we do not believe that God is divided into three "co-equal, co-eternal" beings. He cannot be divided, for He is One. He cannot have an "equal". This would mean that He shares His power. The Bible mentions that God will have a throne, and Jesus will have a throne, but Revelation 4:2 says there is but one throne in heaven. We will only see one throne in heaven, with Jesus Christ seated upon it. God is a Spirit, the Holy Spirit is just that, the Spirit of God, but Jesus had an actual body, so it is Him we will see. The Bible says that in Him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. So basically, oneness people appreciate the term "trinity" because it's a good way to try and explain the Godhead, but we cannot accept the terminology such as I've mentioned above. This is my little brief interpretation. I hope I may have helped some.

God Bless!
Lori

 

[Br_Rhoades]

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. The third day He arose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.

We believe in all of it, save the fact that Jesus is mentioned seated at the right hand of the Father. Of course the Bible mentions this, but we know that throughout the Bible, the right hand of God is = to power. God also mentions numerous other people to be seated at His right hand, so we take this symbolically and not literally. Most people don't realize that oneness and a lot of Trinitarians believe the same thing. I was raised Baptist (Trinitarian) and realized after converting to Pentecostal that my view of the Godhead never changed. The reason oneness people disagree with the Trinitarian concept is that it implies that by three "persons", there are three embodiments of God, hence three "God's" (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit). We DO believe that God reveals Himself has all three roles, but we do not believe that God is divided into three "co-equal, co-eternal" beings. He cannot be divided, for He is One. He cannot have an "equal". This would mean that He shares His power. The Bible mentions that God will have a throne, and Jesus will have a throne, but Revelation 4:2 says there is but one throne in heaven. We will only see one throne in heaven, with Jesus Christ seated upon it. God is a Spirit, the Holy Spirit is just that, the Spirit of God, but Jesus had an actual body, so it is Him we will see. The Bible says that in Him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. So basically, oneness people appreciate the term "trinity" because it's a good way to try and explain the Godhead, but we cannot accept the terminology such as I've mentioned above. This is my little brief interpretation. I hope I may have helped some.

God Bless!
Lori

This helps a lot, if this is the general nature of the UPC also then the cutting out of this group as ‘non’ Christian has a big problem especially given some of the other so called ‘Christian’ groups that are accepted and allowed to post freely. Maybe at this point the question would be what is a ‘Christian’ organization and how is that choice made. Of course we have the fact that this is a service provided by a kind person that dose not have to answer to any but God and is a private venue subject to none.

 

[mortsmune]

Here's a little bit more clear version of it

For some reason, I have never seen that illustration before. It's great.

 

[mortsmune]

Here is what the official UPC (UPCI.org) website says. I think it is best to discuss what they say officially rather than what someone thinks they believe.
(My own comment: It does not seem to be the same as some of the UPC comments in this string, and it does seem to quite different from traditional trintarian doctrine)
Doctrine - 60 Questions on the Godhead

​

Read the answers to sixty questions concerning the Godhead as found in the Bible.

1. Is the word trinity in the Bible? No.

2. Does the Bible say that there are three persons in the Godhead? No.

3. Does the Bible speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? Yes.

4. Do these titles as used in Matthew 28:19 mean that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead? No, they refer to three offices, roles, or relationship to humanity.

5. Does the Bible use the word three in reference to God? Only one verse in the entire Bible does so-I John 5:7. It speaks of the Father, the Word (instead of Son), and the Holy Ghost, and it concludes by saying, "These three are one."

6. Does the Bible use the word one in reference to God? Yes, many times. For example, see Zechariah 14:9; Malachi 2:10; Matthew 23:9; Mark 12:29, 32; John 8:41; 10:30; Romans 3:30; I Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; I Timothy 2:5; James 2:19.

7. Can the mystery of the Godhead be understood? Yes. Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:16.

8. Has the Christian only one Heavenly Father? Yes. Matthew 23:9.

9. Then why did Jesus say to Philip, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9)? Because Jesus is the express image of God's person. Hebrews 1:3. The Greek word for personin this verse literally means "substance."

10. Does the Bible say that there are two persons in the Godhead? No.

11. Does the Bible say that all the Godhead is revealed in one person? Yes, in Jesus Christ. II Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:19; 2:9; Hebrews 1:3.

12. Is the mystery of the Deity hidden from some people? Yes. Luke 10:21-22.

13. Who is the Father? The Father is the one God, particularly as revealed in parental relationship to humanity. Deuteronomy 32:6; Malachi 2:10.

14. Where was God the Father while Jesus was on earth? The Father was in Christ. John 14:10; II Corinthians 5:19. He was also in heaven, for God is omnipresent.

15. Did the prophet Isaiah say that Jesus would be the Father? Yes. Isaiah 9:6; 63:16.

16. When God said, "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26), was He speaking to another person in the Godhead? No. Isaiah 44:24; Malachi 2:10.

17. How many of God's qualities were in Christ? All. Colossians 2:9.

18. How may we see the God who sent Jesus into the world? By seeing Jesus. John 12:44-45; 14:9.

19. Does the Bible say that Jesus is the Almighty? Yes. Revelation 1:8

20. Whom do some designate as the first person in the trinity? God the Father.

21. Whom do some designate as the last person in the trinity? The Holy Ghost. But Jesus said that He was the first and last. Revelation 1:17-18

22. How many persons did John see sitting on the throne in heaven? One. Revelation 4:2.

23. If Jesus is the first and the last, why did God say in Isaiah 44:6 that He was the first and the last? Because Jesus is the God of the Old Testament incarnate.

24. Did Jesus tell Satan that God alone should be worshipped? Yes. Matthew 4:10

25. Does the devil believe in more than one God? No. James 2:19.

26. Does the Bible say that God, who is the Word, was made flesh? Yes John 1:1, 14.

27. For what purpose was God manifested in the flesh? To save sinners. Hebrews 2:9, 14.

28. Was Jesus God manifested in the flesh? Yes. I Timothy 3:16.

29. Could Jesus have been on earth and in heaven at the same time? Yes. John 3:13.

30. Does the Bible say that there is but one Lord? Yes. Isaiah 45:18; Ephesians 4:5.

31. Does the Bible say that Christ is the Lord? Yes. Luke 2:11.

32. Does the Bible say that the Lord is God? Yes. I kings 18:39; Zechariah 14:5; Acts 2:39; Revelation 19:1.

33. How could the church belong to Jesus (Matthew 16:18) and yet be the church of God (I Corinthians 10:32)? Because Jesus is God in the flesh.

34. Will God give His glory to another? No. Isaiah 42:8.

35. Was there a God formed before Jehovah, or will there be one formed after? No. Isaiah 43:10.

36. What is one thing that God does not know? Another God. Isaiah 44:8.

37. What is one thing that God Cannot do? Lie. Titus 1:2.

38. How many Gods should we know? Only one. Hosea 13:4.

39. How many names has the Lord? One. Zechariah 14:9.

40. Is it good to think upon the name of the Lord? Yes. Malachi 3:16.

41. Does the Bible say that God alone treads upon the waves of the sea? Yes. Job 9:8

42. Why, then, was Jesus able to walk upon the Sea of Galilee (Matthew 14:25)? Because He is God the Creator. Colossians 1:16.

43. Is God the only one who can forgive sin? Yes. Isiah 43:25; Mark 2:7.

44. Why, then, could Jesus forgive sin in Mark 2:5-11? Because He is God the Savior.

45. Is Jesus the true God? Yes. I John 5:20.

46. If God and the Holy Ghost are two separate persons, which was the Father of Christ? Matthew 1:20 says that the Holy Ghost was the Father, while Romans 15:6, II Corinthians 11:31, and Ephesians 1:3 say that God was the Father. There is no contradiction when we realize that God the Father and the Holy Ghost are one and the same Spirit. Matthew 10:20; Ephesians 4:4; I Corinthians 3:16.

47. When Paul asked the Lord who He was, what was the answer? "I am Jesus." Acts 9:5.

48. When Stephen was dying, did he call God Jesus? Yes. Acts 7:59.

49. Did Thomas ever call Jesus God? Yes. John 20:28.

50. How could Jesus be the Savior, when God the Father said in Isaiah 43:11, "Beside me there is no Savior?" Because "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." II Corinthians 5:19.

51. Does the Bible say that Jesus was God with us? Yes. Matthew 1:23.

52. Did Jesus ever say, "I and my Father are one?" Yes. John 10:30.

53. Can it be proved scripturally that Jesus and the Father are one in the same sense that husband and wife are one? No. The Godhead was never compared to the relationship of a husband and wife. Jesus identified Himself with the Father in a way that husband and wife cannot be identified with each other. John 14:9-11.

54. Does the Bible say that there is only one wise God? Yes. Jude 25.

55. Does the Bible call the Holy Ghost a second or third person in the Godhead? No. The Holy Ghost is the one Spirit of God, the one God Himself at work in our lives. John 4:24; I Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19; 12:13.

56. Can Trinitarians show that three divine persons were present when Jesus was baptized by John? Absolutely not. The one, omnipresent God used three simultaneous manifestations. Only one divine person was present--Jesus Christ the Lord.

57. Then what were the other two of whom Trinitarians speak? One was a voice from heaven; the other was the Spirit of God in the form of a dove. Matthew 3:16-17.

58. What did the voice say at Jesus' baptism? "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Mark 1:11. As the Son of God, Jesus was the one God incarnate.

59. Does the Bible say that God shed His blood and that God laid down His life for us? Yes. Acts 20:28; I John 3:16. God was able to do this because He had taken upon Himself a human body.

60. The Bible says that God is coming back with all his saints (Zechariah 14:5) and also that Jesus is coming back with all his saints (I Thessalonians 3:13). Are two coming back? No. Only one is coming back--our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13.

*Taken from the Word Aflame Tract "60 Questions on the Godhead with Bible answers" #6125"

 

[LovesTheLord]

Actually, what I wrote was pretty much the same idea, except that I put it into conversational terms. I have read "60 questions on the Godhead" numerous times and it's an excellent source of info. on oneness doctrine, totally backed up by scripture. I didn't imply in my post that what I believed was one bit different, I only meant to explain the jist of things.

God Bless

 

[LovesTheLord]

This helps a lot, if this is the general nature of the UPC also then the cutting out of this group as ‘non’ Christian has a big problem especially given some of the other so called ‘Christian’ groups that are accepted and allowed to post freely. Maybe at this point the question would be what is a ‘Christian’ organization and how is that choice made. Of course we have the fact that this is a service provided by a kind person that dose not have to answer to any but God and is a private venue subject to none.

Amen! My sentiments exactly!

 

[ciaman59]

now my head hurts!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Trying to make heads or tails out of the "trinity" doctrine is going to give you a headache.
The fact the word does not exist in scripture creates a huge scramble to correctly word the definition. Line up 1000 people and virtually all of them will have different definitions. All will tell you that unless you see it their way you are a heretic.
I just read the scripture. At the baptism of Jesus we see the Father speak from heaven, the Son in the water, and the Spirit as a dove descend. How you want to word their relationship and what is happening is just a guess.
Do not try to understand how 1+1+1=1. It does not.