Yin and Yang? Not in My Bible!

Treeplanter · Jun 11, 2021

com7fy8 said:
It is good to recognize how God is holy and recognize that this can be good for us.

Is it good and moral, though, that God DEMANDS said recognition?

Treeplanter · Jun 11, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Incorrect...

God is both Triune and Monotheistic.

There is no dualism in the Godhead - this is an Eastern concept and is a deception.

Yes, I am fully aware that God is both triune and monotheistic

That said, there are many aspects to God's nature, most if not all of which, fit neatly into one of two primary attributes - God as LOVE and God's HOLINESS

I see nothing wrong with describing the Christian God as a dualistic god on this basis

As for the concept of Yin & Yang, I invoked the term simply for the sole purpose of illustrating that of God's two primary attributes - the one overpowers the other and God's love is not complemented and balanced, such as one finds with Yin & Yang, in equal and perfect harmony by His holiness

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 11, 2021

Treeplanter said:
I don't understand how you can disagree with my assessment that God is more concerned with the HOLY aspect of His nature than He is with the LOVE aspect of His nature?

Did not Jesus, Himself, make it perfectly clear that God is primarily concerned with His own glorification when He said that loving God is the FIRST AND GREATEST commandment?

Yes, I am fully aware that God is both triune and monotheistic

That said, there are many aspects to God's nature, most if not all of which, fit neatly into one of two primary attributes - God as LOVE and God's HOLINESS

I see nothing wrong with describing the Christian God as a dualistic god on this basis

As for the concept of Yin & Yang, I invoked the term simply for the sole purpose of illustrating that of God's two primary attributes - the one overpowers the other and God's love is not complemented and balanced in equal and perfect harmony by His holiness

What about Justice? If you want to divide God up into aspects or attributes you can't leave out Justice. Yin and Yang are of the natural world. Totally inappropriate in referring to God.

GOD Shines Forth! · Jun 11, 2021

Treeplanter said:
I don't have a problem that God gets praised due His holiness
I have a problem that God demands to be praised for His holiness

Hope you get that problem worked out!

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 11, 2021

From the Tao Te Ching
In the natural world opposites are in relationship. Love and Holiness are not opposites.

When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Treeplanter · Jun 11, 2021

Baby Cottontail said:
I do not see God as being dualistic in Scripture, nor do I see a yin and yang here (which is part of a completely different religion).

com7fy8 · Jun 11, 2021

Treeplanter said:
I don't have a problem that God gets praised due His holiness
I have a problem that God demands to be praised for His holiness

We understand that He tells us to praise Him because He knows it is good to do this.

He is not like how a narcissist expects praise. And He means for us to be sharing with Him in His love while we do this . . . so this is so beneficial for us. No human narcissist can greatly benefit us "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5) with love which "casts out fear" (1 John 4:18) while we are praising a narcissist. And ones we praise for music can't deeply and personally love us, all the time.

He demands praise, because He knows it is good . . . the way He means for us to praise Him . . . including while He is being fatherly with us. It is part of the nature of loving someone who is so good for you. So, He wants us to be in such love sharing with Him; He means in intimate sharing with Him, and this is good > a lot of people do not realize how our Father is personal with His children and wants this, and so He commands this so people can know.

If He were conceited, He would be distant. But God sent His own Son to us - - - His very best; so He is not conceited, though so superior.

Treeplanter said:
Offering praise to a perfect being is something I would gladly engage in myself
That said, can a being that demands praise truly be called perfect?

He knows what is good; so He commands this. And I have offered how this needs to be done . . . not out of fear while feeling distant and feeling God is being impersonal with us . . . not merely like flattery or out of fear and trying to get points.

Praising includes thanking, by the way. I just become thankful while I find myself to be sharing with God and people in His love.

Treeplanter said:
I don't understand how you can disagree with my assessment that God is more concerned with the HOLY aspect of His nature than He is with the LOVE aspect of His nature?

On the cross, we see both. Jesus was loving, and Jesus was holy > "without sin" (Hebrews 4:15). Jesus is so well-pleasing to our Father and He is love and holiness all in one. We don't try to dissect Jesus into love here and holy there.

If a human loves you, in a human way, she or he is love and human. You can't separate the two. But, of course, you might be more interested in someone being human, or more interested in the person loving you . . . depending on the person. The person might be more concerned about being human, than being loving. But this might be because the loving is intended to get some result that the human person wants. So, if the loving part is only a means to an end . . . the person might care more about how he or she is human.

But God loves us not merely in order to use us for praise. How He effects us in His love matters very much to Him. He can change us to be and to relate with Him like Jesus > this potential loving, I can see, matters more to Him than how He is holy . . . maybe like how a caring father might be more interested in how He loves his children, than in how he is human. And he likely enjoys the praise of his kids, since this comes with how much good he is doing them . . . or because they are getting spoiled, of course.

Treeplanter said:
Did not Jesus, Himself, make it perfectly clear that God is primarily concerned with His own glorification when He said that loving God is the FIRST AND GREATEST commandment?

But Jesus did say the love-your-neighbor command is "like it" . . . right?

So - - in order for God to continue to benefit us, He needs to continue to be holy. Or else, if God could be reduced to not holy, then He would diminish in how able He is to be good for us, and able to love.

com7fy8 · Jun 11, 2021

Treeplanter said:
Is it good and moral, though, that God DEMANDS said recognition?

I have offered some things about this in another post.

Technically, I say He commands praise.

And, like I said, if He did not tell us He wants praise, ones might not appreciate how God wants us to personally relate with Him . . . including by praising Him.

And hopefully the praising is connected with how good it is to share with Him and discover how He does such good in sharing with us.

If He did not command praise, then, ones possibly would not know He wants us to personally share with Him.

What matters, then, is how and why we praise Him.

Now, you might consider praise to be a narcissistic thing, and so demanding it would be narcissistic.

But even when a human mother requires you to say "thank you" for something, praising her for some good you have done . . . this is not necessarily narcissistic. Partly, this is for your own good . . . so you do not become narcissistic, yourself, just expecting things and taking them for granted. It is important not to have an entitlement spirit.

It seems there are people who have no appreciation of God, at all. And they just grab what they can, use whomever they can. And they miss out on how they could have love.

So . . . I would offer > there is a way of praising which comes naturally with loving.

And it is good to acknowledge God for all that is His good for us. Or else, we can praise ourselves and then get into major trouble of depending on ourselves. And we can seek credit for good things we do, instead of helping people to look to and praise the real source of all that is good. Then they can meta-morph from acknowledging only us, to acknowledging God and discovering ever more and better than they would by only praising us and getting mainly more human benefits.

So, I see how praising God can be for our own good, in a practical day-to-day way, even.

Baby Cottontail · Jun 11, 2021

This reply is empty?

Treeplanter · Jun 11, 2021

Baby Cottontail said:
I do not see God as being dualistic in Scripture, nor do I see a yin and yang here (which is part of a completely different religion).

However, you are correct in saying that God in Scripture is both a God of love and is holy. Where I disagree with you is in definitions and conclusions.

I can agree with you mostly on your definition of love here.

I am with you so far.

I went to a very memorable Christian Conference that was put on by Youth For Christ while I was in high school. One of the topics that was emphasized was “Set Apart,” which definitely has to do with holiness. This is also seen in Scripture when God talks about objects in the temple being holy/set apart, and even how he talks about people being holy/set apart.

This is where I begin to differ from you, especially the last part you wrote there. According to the Bible, people can be made holy by God. This certainly doesn’t mean that those individuals should be exalted or praised or worthy of devotion.

Holiness is neither inward or outwardly directed, as I understand the concept.

God’s holiness is definitely different from any other kind, but that doesn’t make His holiness selfish. (And selfishness can’t really be an attribute of God anyway, when you consider all that Scripture says about God. Selfishness is a human problem).

God’s holiness is not in opposition to His love.

God’s love is all over the Bible. Here are a few examples:

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
John 3:16-17 NASB 95

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:8 NASB 95

The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.
1 John 4:8-12 NASB 95

There are many other examples in the Bible.

So as can be seen from the selected Scriptures above, I don’t think that God is selfish at all.

The way I see it, there are many aspects to God's nature, most if not all of which, fit neatly into one of two primary attributes - God as LOVE and God's HOLINESS

Of course, I realize that Yin & Yang is not a biblical concept

I introduced the abstraction only as a means by which to introduce the idea of two seemingly diametrically opposed natures {such as selflessness and selfishness} coexisting in perfect harmony and equal measure

You see holiness as neither inwardly nor outwardly directed
I disagree

Although God can make a human being holy, I don't imagine that anyone will argue with me when I assert that God is the one and only, truly holy being in existence

He, and He alone, is set apart
God's holiness is wholly His
All about Him
If this isn't what it means to be inwardly directed - then I don't know what is...

Perhaps I could have chosen a different word than selfishness to describe God's holiness, but I don't know what that word might be...

Selfishness is to be excessively and/or exclusively concerned with one's self
Holiness, by definition, is selfish

You have asserted that God's holiness is not in opposition to His love
I beg to differ

What happens when a sincere god-seeker dies without having come to Christ?
A sincere god-seeker who dies having been deceived into following a false god?

This person now finds himself standing in judgement before the ONE, TRUE GOD

This person now realizes how he had been fooled by Satan into devoting himself, in life, to the wrong god

This person, with a genuinely repentant heart and sincere desire to spend eternity with God, asks humbly for forgiveness

Christianity would have us believe that God tells this man:

"Too late - you had your chance to find Jesus before you died and you blew it - now you will be going to Hell"

Here, we find God's love in conflict with His holiness and His holiness comes out on top

God, as love, desires to welcome this man into Heaven
God's holiness, though, demands that this man go to Hell

Treeplanter · Jun 11, 2021

Baby Cottontail said:
This reply is empty?

Sorry, I haven't yet figured out how to reply point by point and ended up deleting my attempt!

Treeplanter · Jun 11, 2021

Akita Suggagaki said:
From the Tao Te Ching
In the natural world opposites are in relationship. Love and Holiness are not opposites.

When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Love is about others
Holiness {of which God is, ultimately, the sole possessor} is about self

Love is about giving
Holiness is about receiving

Love is outwardly directed
Holiness is inwardly directed

Love and holiness certainly appear, to me, to be opposites

Baby Cottontail · Jun 11, 2021

Treeplanter said:
Sorry, I haven't yet figured out how to reply point by point and ended up deleting my attempt!

Okay . No problem. Take your time

Treeplanter · Jun 11, 2021

Akita Suggagaki said:
I would not agree with that. Nor would I agree that Yin and Yang have anything to do with God. God transcends duality. Yin and Yang are aspects of the created universe. In God holiness and love are unified.

Scripture tells us that God created us FOR HIS OWN GLORY, so that His Holy name be proclaimed - not because He loves us and wanted to give us a precious gift of life

With this in mind, how can you disagree that God is more concerned with the holiness aspect of His nature than He is with the love aspect of His nature?

I agree with you!
Yin and Yang have nothing to do with God

Yin & Yang suggests that God's holiness and His love complement one another and exist on equal footing and this, obviously, is not the case

Treeplanter · Jun 11, 2021

Baby Cottontail said:
Okay . No problem. Take your time

I did respond to you in post #30 - just not in a quoted, point by point format!

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 11, 2021

Treeplanter said:
Love is about others
Holiness {of which God is, ultimately, the sole possessor} is about self

Love is about giving
Holiness is about receiving

Love is outwardly directed
Holiness is inwardly directed

Love and holiness certainly appear, to me, to be opposites

I think that is quite distorted. It appears to me that Love is integral to Holiness. "Holiness is about receiving"? Inward directed? Not necessarily so at all.

Treeplanter · Jun 11, 2021

SongOnTheWind said:
Holiness and Love are not dual natures in the way that ying and yang are traditionally presented. Ying/yang philosophy holds that evil is just as necessary as good. That they balance each other out.

But we know that our God loves what is good and hates what is evil. In fact, it is this very trait that make Him holy, though many would argue that this is a bad thing.

So no, you will not find ying/yang in the bible. In fact I would wonder at those who thought they had found it in scripture. Holiness and Love are two distinct natures, yes. But one is a direct result of the other. God has other traits too. But He has no cognitive dissonance or conflicts about any of them. He is eternal and He is also omnipotent. He is omniscient as well as omnipresent. I see no conflict of natures here. Why should anyone?

I bring up Yin & Yang only to introduce the concept of two seemingly, diametrically opposed natures balancing one another in equal measure and perfect harmony

The point, though, is that God's nature of love and His nature of holiness are NOT balanced and equal

God's holiness takes precedence over His love and scripture makes this clear
See Matthew 22:36-39

God values the praising of His holy name, by His creation, above and beyond the satisfaction of seeing His creation love one another

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 11, 2021

Treeplanter said:
With this in mind, how can you disagree that God is more concerned with the holiness aspect of His nature than He is with the love aspect of His nature?

because

1 John 4
16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

Treeplanter · Jun 11, 2021

Akita Suggagaki said:
I think that is quite distorted. It appears to me that Love is integral to Holiness. "Holiness is about receiving"? Inward directed? Not necessarily so at all.

Love is integral to holiness?
Love for self, perhaps...inwardly directed love - sure

To be holy is to be set apart
To be recognized as entirely unique, one of a kind, special

Yeah, holiness is all about receiving
Holiness is all about God taking it in

Treeplanter · Jun 11, 2021

Akita Suggagaki said:
because

1 John 4
16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

I'm not denying that God is love
Nor, for that matter, am I denying that God is holy

I am merely pointing out what God, Himself, tells us:

That of the two - God's holiness takes precedence over His love

*and that I take moral issue with this

Yin and Yang? Not in My Bible!

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