YHWH's Table (Part 1)

[HARK!]

This thread is the first part of a series of threads where I will submit studies of what is brought to YHWH's table, and why. I'm using the CLV translation, which is pretty good about translating the same Hebrew, or Greek, word, with the same English word each time. The software that I'm using also allows me to see what words the CLV has added to the manuscripts, for better flow. (That doesn't always appear to be the only reason that they add words.) I'll highlight the added words in grey.


(CLV) Lv 1:1
And He called to Moses, and Yahweh spoke to him from the tent of appointment, saying-,

(CLV) Lv 1:2
Speak to the sons of Israel, and you will say to them: When any man among you brings near an approach present to Yahweh, from the domestic beasts (from the herd or from the flock) shall you bring near your approach present.

Notice that this verse mentions nothing about a sacrifice. It should also be noted that the word "present" doesn't appear in the original manuscripts. It's an insertion. The word "approach" is replacing the Hebrew word "קרבן" (Qorban). It stems from the Hebrew word "קרב" (qarab) which means to come near. Perhaps this will provide some clues as to what this word means.

Notice that there has been no mention of sin.

(CLV) Lv 1:3
If his approach (קרבן) (Qorban) present is an ascent (עלה) (Olah) offering from the herd, a flawless male is it which he shall bring near (יקריב). To the opening of the tent of appointment shall he bring it near (יקריב) for acceptance on his behalf before Yahweh.

Acceptance: In a more literal rending I find (לרצנו) to mean "for acceptance of him." It is the man that is being accepted.

Again in this verse the word "present" doesn't exist after the word "approach;" nor does the word "offering exist after the word "ascent," in the original manuscripts.

We are also introduced to another word from the root of qarab in this verse, to come near. There is still no mention of sin.

(CLV) Lv 1:4
He will support his hand on the head of the ascent offering so that it will be accepted for him to make a propitiatory shelter over him.

The words "offering" and "propitiatory" don't appear in the original manuscripts. Again these words were added by translators. So the person who brings near the ascent puts his hand on the head to make a shelter over him. No mention of sin.

(CLV) Lv 1:5
Then he will slay the bull calf of the herd before Yahweh; and the sons of Aaron, the priests, will bring near the blood and sprinkle the blood against the altar round about which is at the opening of the tent of appointment.

Who will slay it? The Priest? No. The person who brought it near does.

(CLV) Lv 1:6
Then he will flay the ascent offering and piece it into its pieces,

He butchers it too.

(CLV) Lv 1:7
while the sons of Aaron, the priests, put fire on the altar and arrange the wood on the fire.

Who does this? The High Priest? No.

(CLV) Lv 1:8
The sons of Aaron, the priests, will arrange the pieces with the head and the suet over the wood on the fire which is on the altar,

What is this alter?

Malachi provides us with a telling clue.

(CLV) Mal 1:7
You are bringing close on My altar sullied bread, and you say, In what way do we sully You? When you say, The table of Yahweh, it is despised.

We find that the alter is equated to YHWH's table.

(CLV) Lv 1:9
while he shall wash its inwards and its shanks in water. Then the priest will cause the whole to fume on the altar. It is an ascent offering, a fire offering, a fragrant odor to Yahweh.

Looks like the priests don't wash the inwards either. What can we derive from this? The person who qarab, cleanses the inward parts.

(CLV) Lv 1:10
If his approach present is from the flock (from the sheep or from the goats) for an ascent offering, a flawless male is it which he shall bring near.

(CLV) Lv 1:11
Then he will slay it on the flank of the altar northward before Yahweh; and the sons of Aaron, the priests, will sprinkle its blood against the altar round about.

(CLV) Lv 1:12
He will piece it into its pieces with its head and its suet; and the priest will arrange them over the wood on the fire which is on the altar;

(CLV) Lv 1:13
and he shall wash the inwards and the shanks in water. Then the priest will bring near the whole and cause it to fume on the altar. It is an ascent offering, a fire offering, a fragrant odor to Yahweh.

(CLV) Lv 1:14
If his approach present to Yahweh is an ascent offering from the flyer then he will bring near turtledoves or dove squabs as his approach present.

(CLV) Lv 1:15
The priest will bring it near to the altar and pinch off its head and cause it to fume on the altar; yet its blood will be wrung out against the sidewall of the altar.

(CLV) Lv 1:16
Then he will take away its craw with its filthy contents and fling it beside the altar eastward at the place for the greasy ash.

(CLV) Lv 1:17
He will cleave it at its wings yet shall not separate it. Then the priest will cause it to fume on the altar over the wood which is on the fire. It is an ascent offering, a fire offering, a fragrant odor to Yahweh.

So we conclude Leviticus 1. There is no mention of a High Priest; and there is no mention of sin

Even though I have used a literal translation in this study; just the study of this one chapter has revealed the bias of this translation. It, by default, puts the emphasis on the animal, rather than on the person who brings the animal.

YHWH's Table (Part 2)

 

[Studyman]

This thread is the first part of a series of threads where I will submit studies of what is brought to YHWH's table, and why. I'm using the CLV translation, which is pretty good about translating the same Hebrew, or Greek, word, with the same English word each time. The software that I'm using also allows me to see what words the CLV has added to the manuscripts, for better flow. (That doesn't always appear to be the only reason that they add words.) I'll highlight the added words in grey.


(CLV) Lv 1:1
And He called to Moses, and Yahweh spoke to him from the tent of appointment, saying-,

(CLV) Lv 1:2
Speak to the sons of Israel, and you will say to them: When any man among you brings near an approach present to Yahweh, from the domestic beasts (from the herd or from the flock) shall you bring near your approach present.

Notice that this verse mentions nothing about a sacrifice. It should also be noted that the word "present" doesn't appear in the original manuscripts. It's an insertion. The word "approach" is replacing the Hebrew word "קרבן" (Korban). It stems from the Hebrew word "קרב" (qarab) which means to come near. Perhaps this will provide some clues as to what this word means.

Notice that there has been no mention of sin.

(CLV) Lv 1:3
If his approach (Korban) present is an ascent (עלה) offering from the herd, a flawless male is it which he shall bring near (יקריב). To the opening of the tent of appointment shall he bring it near (יקריב) for acceptance on his behalf before Yahweh.

Acceptance: In a more literal rending I find (לרצנו) to mean "for acceptance of him." It is the man that is being accepted.

Again in this verse the word "present" doesn't exist after the word "approach;" nor does the word "offering exist after the word "ascent," in the original manuscripts.

We are also introduced to another word from the root of qarab in this verse, to come near. There is still no mention of sin.

(CLV) Lv 1:4
He will support his hand on the head of the ascent offering so that it will be accepted for him to make a propitiatory shelter over him.

The words "offering" and "propitiatory" don't appear in the original manuscripts. Again these words were added by translators. So the person who brings near the ascent puts his hand on the head to make a shelter over him. No mention of sin.

I am allowed to participate once again.

And I have a question Hark.

What do you think is the purpose of the "Shelter" here, to shelter him from what? Just about every Translation that exists points to atonement as the reason for placing his hands on the offering. In my understanding, "hands" represent works. Is he Spiritually placing his "works" on the offering, or confessing his sins before the Lord? And then killing it as a representation of repentance? And then dividing it from the head, washing the inward parts, (the mind), as well as the legs, (our walk), as the Priest prepares fiery trials to test us and purify the parts (Mind and body)?

Lev. 1:4 (KJV) And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

Lev 1:4 (TS 2009) ‘And he shall lay his hand on the head of the ascending offering, and it shall be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him.

Leviticus 1:4 (LXX) And he shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt-offering as a thing acceptable for him, to make atonement for him.

Leviticus 1:4 (NRS) You shall lay your hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be acceptable in your behalf as atonement for you.

Leviticus 1:4 (YLT) and he hath laid his hand on the head of the burnt-offering, and it hath been accepted for him to make atonement for him;

If it isn't to shelter him from the wages of sin, then what does the "Shelter" represent in your understanding? I look forward to your take.

 

[HARK!]

I have a question Hark.

What do you think is the purpose of the "Shelter" here, to shelter him from what? Just about every Translation that exists points to atonement as the reason for placing his hands on the offering. In my understanding, "hands" represent works. Is he Spiritually placing his "works" on the offering, or confessing his sins before the Lord? And then killing it as a representation of repentance? And then dividing it from the head, washing the inward parts, (the mind), as well as the legs, (our walk), as the Priest prepares fiery trials to test us and purify the parts (Mind and body)?

Lev. 1:4 (KJV) And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

Lev 1:4 (TS 2009) ‘And he shall lay his hand on the head of the ascending offering, and it shall be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him.

Leviticus 1:4 (LXX) And he shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt-offering as a thing acceptable for him, to make atonement for him.

Leviticus 1:4 (NRS) You shall lay your hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be acceptable in your behalf as atonement for you.

Leviticus 1:4 (YLT) and he hath laid his hand on the head of the burnt-offering, and it hath been accepted for him to make atonement for him;

If it isn't to shelter him from the wages of sin, then what does the "Shelter" represent in your understanding? I look forward to your take.

Good question.

"Shelter" isn't the best definition of the word according to Gesenius. A better word might be "cover." I'm not sure how the majority of Bibles get "atonement" out of "cover;" but it probably helps them to sell Bibles. Most people don't want to deviate too far from the way that King James' men translated the scripture.

Here is the first use of the word in the TaNaK:

(CLV) Gn 6:14
Make for yourself an ark of sulphur wood; with nests shall you make the ark, and you will shelter (בכפר) it from the inside and from the outside with a sheltering (בכפר) coat.

The verse in question doesn't say that he is being covered "from" anything. A covering can be "for" also. A good example might be a covering for protection.

Here is the second:

(CLV) Gn 32:20
and you must also say: Behold, your servant Jacob is coming along behind us. For he thought, I am determined to appease his face with the approach present (במנחה) going before me. And afterward I shall see his face; perhaps he will lift up my face.

(מנחה) mincha H4503 which means present, or gift.

But wait...there seems to be a word missing that I can't account for.

Let's look at the Hebrew.

וַאֲמַרְתֶּם--גַּם הִנֵּה עַבְדְּךָ יַעֲקֹב, אַחֲרֵינוּ: כִּי-אָמַר אֲכַפְּרָה פָנָיו, בַּמִּנְחָה הַהֹלֶכֶת לְפָנָי, וְאַחֲרֵי-כֵן אֶרְאֶה פָנָיו, אוּלַי יִשָּׂא פָנָי.

(אכפרה) Kippur, to cover.

Let's look at this verse word for word.

And-you-say moreover behold servant-of-you Jacob behind-us that he-said I-shall-make-shelter faces-of-him in-present the-one-going to-faces-of-me and-after so I-shall-see faces-of-him perhaps he-shall-lift faces-of-me he-lodged in-night the-he in-camp

Interestingly, the CLV is a literal version; but not so literal that they don't omit words which might be important.

I find it interesting that the word shelter is used in conjunction with lodging and camping.

When we pitch our tents with YHWH; do you suppose that he gives us shelter? If so, shelter from/for/in/etc. what, do you suppose?

 

[Studyman]

Good question.

"Shelter" isn't the best definition of the word according to Gesenius. A better word might be "cover." I'm not sure how the majority of Bibles get "atonement" out of "cover;" but it probably helps them to sell Bibles. Most people don't want to deviate too far from the way that King James' men translated the scripture.

Here is the first use of the word in the TaNaK:

(CLV) Gn 6:14
Make for yourself an ark of sulphur wood; with nests shall you make the ark, and you will shelter (בכפר) it from the inside and from the outside with a sheltering (בכפר) coat.

The verse in question doesn't say that he is being covered "from" anything. A covering can be "for" also. A good example might be a covering for protection.

Here is the second:

(CLV) Gn 32:20
and you must also say: Behold, your servant Jacob is coming along behind us. For he thought, I am determined to appease his face with the approach present (במנחה) going before me. And afterward I shall see his face; perhaps he will lift up my face.

(מנחה) mincha H4503 which means present, or gift.

But wait...there seems to be a word missing that I can't account for.

Let's look at the Hebrew.

וַאֲמַרְתֶּם--גַּם הִנֵּה עַבְדְּךָ יַעֲקֹב, אַחֲרֵינוּ: כִּי-אָמַר אֲכַפְּרָה פָנָיו, בַּמִּנְחָה הַהֹלֶכֶת לְפָנָי, וְאַחֲרֵי-כֵן אֶרְאֶה פָנָיו, אוּלַי יִשָּׂא פָנָי.

(אכפרה) Kaphar, to cover.

Let's look at this verse word for word.

And-you-say moreover behold servant-of-you Jacob behind-us that he-said I-shall-make-shelter faces-of-him in-present the-one-going to-faces-of-me and-after so I-shall-see faces-of-him perhaps he-shall-lift faces-of-me he-lodged in-night the-he in-camp

Interestingly, the CLV is a literal version; but not so literal that they don't omit words which might be important.

I find it interesting that the word shelter is used in conjunction with lodging and camping.

When we pitch our tents with YHWH; do you suppose that he gives us shelter? If so, shelter from/for/in/etc. what, do you suppose?

Thanks for the detailed answer. I love when men can sit down and have an honest unbiased examination of Scriptures.

The Verse you used in Gen. 32 is interesting, and in my understanding kind of supports the view I have of Lev. 1:4.

Gen 32:20 (TS 2009) and you shall say, ‘Also look, your servant Ya‛aqoḇ is behind us.’ ” For he said, “Let me appease him with the present that goes before me, and after that see his face. He might accept me.”

There was tension between Jacob and Esau. Jacob was concerned that Esau might kill him for his deeds. Therefore Jacob gave a free will offering in the hopes that Esau might accept him in spite of what had transpired between them.

For me, it is the same principle in Lev. 1. WE have all done things we hope God will not hold against us.

Lev. 1: (CLV) 2 Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them:When any man among you brings near an approach present to Yahweh,)

Isn't it the same Principle that Jacob exhibited? To make an "offering of appeasement", to shelter him from the Wrath of Esau?

In like manner, should we not offer God the same fear? I mean, what is the offering for if it is not to Appease our Creator? Shall we not Hope that our offering is ACCEPTED and thereby we be covered/Sheltered/Accepted/ forgiven in the Day of God's Wrath?

Gen. 4:3 (CLV) And coming is it, at the end of days, that bringing is Cain, from the fruit of the ground, a present offering to Yahweh. 4 Abel also is bringing, he, moreover, from the firstlings of his flock, and from their fat. And heed is Yahweh giving to Abel and to his present offering, 5 yet to Cain and to his present offering He does not give heed.

We need to be Accepted by God in spite of the mistakes we have made. Isn't that the very reason why we offer our selves to HIM?

"do you suppose that he gives us shelter? If so, shelter from/for/in/etc. what, do you suppose?"

I would say Shelter from the wrath of God, like Noah was Sheltered/Accepted/forgiven.

Think about this, what else is there for a believer to Hope for? Shelter from God's Wrath, Accepted by God as sons, Forgiven of our transgression by God.

And how can we have one of these without all 3?

Lev. 1:4 He will support his hand on the head of the ascent offering so that it will be accepted for him to make a propitiatory shelter over him.

One last thing, in Egypt when the Passover Lamb was slain, and Israel placed the Blood on the lintel and two door posts. What was the purpose of this?

Ex. 12:23 (CLV) When Yahweh passes through to strike the Egyptians and sees the blood on the lintel and on the two jambs then Yahweh will pass over the portal and shall not allow the ruiner to enter into your houses to strike.

Did God not accept the offering of these men, and Shelter them from the Wrath of God?

Great stuff, thanks for sharing.

 

[HARK!]

Thanks for the detailed answer. I love when men can sit down and have an honest unbiased examination of Scriptures.

(CLV) Mt 18:20
For where two or three are, gathered in My name, there am I in the midst of them."

We need to be Accepted by God in spite of the mistakes we have made. Isn't that the very reason why we offer our selves to HIM?

I see reasons. One of them is to offer myself a bride, in love. Love is a reason. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you; but I don't view that as a mistake.

Think about this, what else is there for a believer to Hope for? Shelter from God's Wrath, Accepted by God as sons, Forgiven of our transgression by God.

And how can we have one of these without all 3?

What if there was no transgression? Why would one need cover for wrath?

(CLV) Jb 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz. Job was his name. This man was flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and keeping away from evil.

I broke this study down in sections; so that each section could be analyzed, individually, in depth. Have you read through this series, as it has been presented thus far?

The first three parts cite very specific actions, with absolutely no mention of sin (transgression of the Torah). However parts 4 and 5 of this series cite different actions, which do mention sin. As we read through this series, it would appear that Parts, 1-3 outline voluntary actions. Do you believe that YHWH views rejecting sin as voluntary, considering that he commands it?


This chapter deals with a korban which loosely means drawing near, and an olah, which means ascent.

My intention is to study what is being brought to YHWH's table and why. Since sin is specifically mentioned in connection to other acts, but is not mentioned regarding this one; I seek to study out exactly what the significance of this act is, in this part of this study.

I do believe that a loved one can draw near to another loved one, without having transgressed him.

 

[HARK!]

One last thing, in Egypt when the Passover Lamb was slain, and Israel placed the Blood on the lintel and two door posts. What was the purpose of this?

Ex. 12:23 (CLV) When Yahweh passes through to strike the Egyptians and sees the blood on the lintel and on the two jambs then Yahweh will pass over the portal and shall not allow the ruiner to enter into your houses to strike.

Did God not accept the offering of these men, and Shelter them from the Wrath of God?

Great stuff, thanks for sharing.

This is a great question; but is outside of the scope of this portion of the study.

Passover is being covered in Part 8 of this series.

YHWH's Table (Part 8)

I would love to see this content in that thread. I have some very interesting information regarding that subject.

 

[Studyman]

(CLV) Mt 18:20
For where two or three are, gathered in My name, there am I in the midst of them."

I see reasons. One of them is to offer myself a bride, in love. Love is a reason. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you; but I don't view that as a mistake.

What if there was no transgression? Why would one need cover for wrath?

(CLV) Jb 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz. Job was his name. This man was flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and keeping away from evil.

Very true, but if I might humbly say that God is speaking to the Son's of Israel after the Golden Calf. And their offering must be accepted, despite their sinful past. And later in Leviticus it talks about Sin "in ignorance".

Lev. 4: 22 When a prince sins inadvertently and does something departing from any of the instructions of Yahweh his Elohim of what should not be done, and he realizes his guil. 23 when his sin with which he has sinned is made known to him, then he will bring as his approach present, a hairy one of the goats, a flawless male.

What about before the Sin becomes known? A man still needs acceptance even before his sin is revealed to him, in my view.

If the offering is already clean, then why does the offerer need to wash the inward parts and the legs?

What is the fire for? Does it not symbolize the fiery trials God uses to purify the offering? If it is already pure, why the fire?

Even Job was shown the sin of pride through the fire God put him through. A sin he didn't realize he had until afterwards, and when it was known, he repented.

Job. 42:I shall ask of you, and you inform Me. 5 With the hearing of the ear I had heard of You, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I sink down and repent On soil and ashes.

If God doesn't accept the Ascent offering from men whose sins are not known to them, will HE reveal them to him, and accept his sin offering when they are?

My intention is to study what is being brought to YHWH's table and why. Since sin is specifically mentioned in connection to other acts, but is not mentioned regarding this one; I seek to study out exactly what the significance of this act is, in this part of this study.

I do believe that a loved one can draw near to another loved one, without having transgressed him.

Yes, but I have transgressed Him Hark. As did the Son's of Israel. Maybe you haven't and that is good, but I believe the Bible is also written for me.

If the Bible started on Lev. 1, then it would be easier for me to accept your premise here. But it doesn't. God has already shown us who Israel is, and man in general.

In my understanding of this chapter, it seems evident that God needs to accept my offering before HE will reveal to me my Sins I don't know about through the fire HE builds. He provides shelter from the angel of death, until HE has completed the fire and has purified me.

Where is Joshua's sin? And yet the CLV clearly says he had sin.

Zech 3: 1 Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary." 2 And Yahweh is saying to Satan, Yahweh is rebuking you, Satan. And Yahweh Who is choosing Jerusalem is rebuking you. Is not this wooden poker being rescued from the fire? 3 Yet Joshua comes to be clothed in filthy garments, and is standing before the messenger." 4 And He is answering and is saying to those standing before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments off him. And He is saying to him, See, I cause your depravity to pass off you, and will clothe you with the costumes." 5 And He is saying, Let them place a clean turban on his head. And they are placing the clean turban on his head and are clothing him in garments.

Joshua is certainly a man who would bring an ascent offering to God in my view. And God accepted his offering, and "sheltered" him from the accuser who pointed out the depravity which existed, even in Joshua.

Taking one translation, and one word "shelter", and removing any implication of atonement or Forgiveness, or Mercy, from it's meaning, is dangerous in my view.

4 He will support his hand on the head of the ascent offering so that it will be accepted for him to make a propitiatory shelter over him.

Is Yeshua not this shelter? Is HE not the Refuge God placed over Joshua? Is our refuge/shelter not in the atonement/mercy of the High Priest of God?

It is for these reasons that I question your statement; "Since sin is specifically mentioned in connection to other acts, but is not mentioned regarding this one".

Certainly a "shelter" is needed, washing is required, and a fire to refine is also needed. If the offering represents us, or more specifically me, then Sin is most certainly a factor, and is the reason why I need "shelter" until the offering is washed, and refined by fire.

I just want to make sure you understand my reasons for questioning a conclusion of yours, especially given the great deal of respect I have for you.. Thanks for allowing me to share my questions.. "Many" religious men can't accept any challenge or question to their doctrines, becoming offended that someone, especially someone who is considered beneath them, would dare to question them. What a great place to discuss scriptures where men can bounce stuff off each other for the edification of us all, without being offended.

Ill give you the last word.

 

[HARK!]

Very true, but if I might humbly say that God is speaking to the Son's of Israel after the Golden Calf. And their offering must be accepted, despite their sinful past. And later in Leviticus it talks about Sin "in ignorance".

YHWH gave Israel all of the Torah after the golden calf. Part of that Torah includes the Shema. The Shema is not about sin.

Lev. 4: 22 When a prince sins inadvertently and does something departing from any of the instructions of Yahweh his Elohim of what should not be done, and he realizes his guil. 23 when his sin with which he has sinned is made known to him, then he will bring as his approach present, a hairy one of the goats, a flawless male.

Leviticus 4 is covered in Part 4 of this study.

What about before the Sin becomes known? A man still needs acceptance even before his sin is revealed to him, in my view.

This chapter doesn't mention sin.

If the offering is already clean, then why does the offerer need to wash the inward parts and the legs?

Clean in what way? I don't recall this chapter mentioning anything about the cleanliness of the animal in its' original state. Again the word offering does not appear in the Hebrew manuscripts. That word was added by translators.

I don't yet have an answer to why the inward parts are washed. I could make a series of assumptions; but as 1 Thessalonians tells us: "be testing all."

This is but one question that I would hope could answered with scriptural proof in this study.

When we start building our next speculation on our previous speculations; and we start treating them as facts; we can stray far from the truth.

What is the fire for? Does it not symbolize the fiery trials God uses to purify the offering? If it is already pure, why the fire?

Another good question that deserves some investigation in this study. I designed this to be a diligent, in depth, study. I'm just getting started. This could go on for years.

Even Job was shown the sin of pride through the fire God put him through. A sin he didn't realize he had until afterwards, and when it was known, he repented.

The scripture in this portion of this study doesn't mention sin. Sin is first mentioned in Part 4 of this study.

Even Job was shown the sin of pride through the fire God put him through. A sin he didn't realize he had until afterwards, and when it was known, he repented.

Job. 42:I shall ask of you, and you inform Me. 5 With the hearing of the ear I had heard of You, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I sink down and repent On soil and ashes.

Again, the scripture in this portion of this study doesn't mention sin. Sin is first mentioned in Part 4 of this study.

I'm not willing to jump to conclusions about what this chapter is about. The purpose of this study is to prove out the truth.

If God doesn't accept the Ascent offering from men whose sins are not known to them, will HE reveal them to him, and accept his sin offering when they are?

Again, the word offering is not mentioned in the Hebrew manuscripts for this chapter.

What does this word, translated as "ascent" really mean from a Hebraic perspective? What is the purpose of this act?

Yes, but I have transgressed Him Hark. As did the Son's of Israel. Maybe you haven't and that is good, but I believe the Bible is also written for me.

This chapter doesn't mention transgression.

If the Bible started on Lev. 1, then it would be easier for me to accept your premise here. But it doesn't. God has already shown us who Israel is, and man in general.

What premise?

In my understanding of this chapter, it seems evident that God needs to accept my offering before HE will reveal to me my Sins I don't know about through the fire HE builds. He provides shelter from the angel of death, until HE has completed the fire and has purified me.

I didn't see see any mention of, offering, sin, the angel of death, revelation, nor completion of fire in this chapter.

Where is the evidence?

Where is Joshua's sin? And yet the CLV clearly says he had sin.

Zech 3: 1 Then He is showing me Joshua, the great priest, standing before the messenger of Yahweh, and Satan, standing at his right, for his adversary." 2 And Yahweh is saying to Satan, Yahweh is rebuking you, Satan. And Yahweh Who is choosing Jerusalem is rebuking you. Is not this wooden poker being rescued from the fire? 3 Yet Joshua comes to be clothed in filthy garments, and is standing before the messenger." 4 And He is answering and is saying to those standing before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments off him. And He is saying to him, See, I cause your depravity to pass off you, and will clothe you with the costumes." 5 And He is saying, Let them place a clean turban on his head. And they are placing the clean turban on his head and are clothing him in garments.

Joshua is certainly a man who would bring an ascent offering to God in my view. And God accepted his offering, and "sheltered" him from the accuser who pointed out the depravity which existed, even in Joshua.

Again, this chapter doesn't mention sin. I would like to dig into what this chapter actually says, to begin to understand it.

I try very hard to approach YHWH as a child, disregarding the assumptions of men, who taught me their assumptions as truth. I seek YHWH's truth; and a great place to start is in his word. Not the word that men told me that he said; but what he actually said.

Decades ago I asked myself this question: "Do I believe what I believe, because I have examined the facts, and I could come to no other conclusion; or do I believe what I believe, because someone told me what to believe, and I believed them?"

Taking one translation, and one word "shelter", and removing any implication of atonement or Forgiveness, or Mercy, from it's meaning, is dangerous in my view.

4 He will support his hand on the head of the ascent offering so that it will be accepted for him to make a propitiatory shelter over him.

Is Yeshua not this shelter? Is HE not the Refuge God placed over Joshua? Is our refuge/shelter not in the atonement/mercy of the High Priest of God?

I try not to rely too heavily on any translation. When we do that; we are relying on the bias of the translators. If you recall, I dismissed the CLV's translation for the word (בכפר).

Are you supposing that YHWH has only one (בכפר)?

There is no mention of the Anointed Priest in this chapter.

It appears that the lowly priests perform the priestly parts of these acts.

It is for these reasons that I question your statement; "Since sin is specifically mentioned in connection to other acts, but is not mentioned regarding this one".

That is what scripture reveals. That's a fact.

Certainly a "shelter" is needed, washing is required, and a fire to refine is also needed. If the offering represents us, or more specifically me, then Sin is most certainly a factor, and is the reason why I need "shelter" until the offering is washed, and refined by fire.

There is nothing in this chapter to indicate that these acts are required. Which shelter is needed, when, and why. This chapter doesn't mention sin; so there is nothing to indicate that this is a shelter form sin. Again, specific acts are outlined in Leviticus 4, (Part 4 of this study) regarding sin. Those acts are very much different than these acts.

I just want to make sure you understand my reasons for questioning a conclusion of yours, especially given the great deal of respect I have for you..

What conclusion? The respect is mutual.

Thanks for allowing me to share my questions.. "Many" religious men can't accept any challenge or question to their doctrines, becoming offended that someone, especially someone who is considered beneath them, would dare to question them.

I don't consider you to be beneath me. I'm looking for answers. That is the purpose of this study. It requires diligence. This is a deep study; and again, I'm just getting started. I'm not looking so much for questions, as I am for contributions. I would encourage you to read through the observations that I have made throughout this series so far; and an analyze the scripture step by step; so that as a group we can seek out the true meaning of what these scriptures represent.

What a great place to discuss scriptures where men can bounce stuff off each other for the edification of us all, without being offended.

I'm thankful for your appreciation.

Ill give you the last word.

I would hope wouldn't be leaving so soon.

 

[HARK!]

I began this study as a result of many unanswered questions. Teachings and studies of the significance of what is brought to YHWH's table are scant at best.

I stumbled on this video which gives an overview of what is brought to the table, and seeks to explain the significance. I'm not sure that I completely agree with these views; but they do provide food for thought.