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YHWH vs. Zeus

Discussion in 'History & Genealogy' started by just a believing guy, Apr 26, 2017.

  1. just a believing guy

    just a believing guy Well-Known Member

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    I would like to learn if these two deities could be compared on certain levels? Historically, which one came to be first (this one might be interesting to the atheists/materialists)? I am hoping for a good debate.
     
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  2. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    No, not really. Without getting controversial, Zeus is dead and YHWH is your heavenly Father who will never die.

    Now, leaving the world where we all sing Kumbayah together :) I will share my personal and somewhat controversial view on this. I think Zeus and Hercules and all of those "gods" of mythology (which tend to be "half man-half god") were real. I believe they were a product of angelic beings mixing with human women. I arrive at this because the book of Enoch plainly states it, but also because in Genesis 6 we find the "sons of God" (a term found only one other time in the OT, in Job... where the sons of God and Satan stand before God petitioning God for Job) take "daughters of men" (human women, a redundant statement unless the "sons of God" were not human) and their offspring appear to be the "giants." The giants of Scripture are a perfect match (minus the cultural lore) to the Greek and Romans gods. So who was Zeus? I think Zeus was the son of a fallen angel and a human woman.

    And for those reading that might prefer to argue... this isn't a topic worth dividing over. But just to head this off in advance... when it says about not marrying like the angels in heaven... the culprits here are not the angels in heaven but the angels who feel FROM heaven.
     
  3. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    I didn't read your post well so in addition to my last comment.... "YHWH" is the God of the bible... He has the name in Hebrew that uses the letters Yod Hay Vav Hay, which in English we write, LORD, YHWH or YHVH (the latter is more modern). He is called Yahwey, Yehovah, Jehovah and a number of others... all the variants based only on personal pronunciation preferences. But the God who spoke the world into existence in Genesis 1... is YHWH. So, clearly he predates everything, not just Zeus.
     
  4. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    I suspect that both Zeus and El are derived from the Canaanite Baal. It might be interesting to explore the similarities of these three. IIRC, entnologists/anthropologist think that the oldest forms of language and religion in the eastern Mediterranean have their origin in proto-Canaanite culture.
     
  5. Dave-W

    Dave-W Grandparent of six grandchildren, #7 on the way! Supporter

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    <Staff Edit>

    The Roman and the Greek pagan religions were quite similar to begin with; and with Rome conquering the Greek empire, they merged - same religion with multiple names for their "gods." The Greek version was zeus while the Roman version of the same "god" was jupiter.
     
  6. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I believe that when Revelation 2:13 refers to where Satan has its throne that it is referring the the altar to Zeus.
     
  7. makeajoyfulnoise100

    makeajoyfulnoise100 Tea, books, and rainy days <3 Supporter

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    Timeline wise YHWH was before Zeus. Interesting theory I've noticed is that the Sumerian goddess Ianna was the basis of Aphrodite who was a war goddess before she was a love goddess where as Ianna was both a love/war goddess. Ancient history is fun XD
     
  8. Quid est Veritas?

    Quid est Veritas? In Memoriam to CS Lewis

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    Zeus is a form of Dyaus Piter, the proto-indo-european god. This became Jupiter, Zeus, Indra, Perun, Thor, etc. depending on the suceeding cultures. Proto-Indo-European is at least 3000 BC, although our first clear historical writings related to it, is Hittite and Hatti writings in Anatolia from about 1800 BC till 1200 BC.

    The first reference to YHWH is from the Shasu of YHW mentioned by the Egyptians as being in the Sinai, roughly 1500 BC.

    No clear relation between Indo-European conceptions or YHWH can be drawn, as the two cultures were not closely related. The Philistines were likely Indo-European, based on names and an association with the Peleset, but the first reference to YHWH antedate any contact they might have had. The Sinaitic YHWH anyway fits biblical descriptions of descent from Seir and the tradition of Moses amongst the Midianites, so there is no strong historical grounds to think otherwise.
     
  9. ShamashUruk

    ShamashUruk Hello

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    There is only a connection of YHWH being head of the Israelite pantheon. While Zeus is head of the Greek pantheon, so each mythology is reflected so.

    I am still at a cross roads with the Indo-Euro polytheists as to whether they could truly look upon their Gods, we see this connection as Moses could only look at YHWH as "he" YHWH was passing through.

    While we possibly don't see this in ancient Israelite myths, even possibly with the worship of the Golden Calf (bovine worship was quite common, also in Babylon where they would slaughter bovine as either sacrifice or worship to the animal). It's most accept that the Golden Calf is associated with El, who is associated as bull in Israelite mythology.
     
  10. ShamashUruk

    ShamashUruk Hello

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    Baal has more of a connection with YHWH, as both are storm Gods. El is seen as a bull or bull-calf, in retrospect Zeus would be seen as head of the Greek polytheistic pantheon. Oldest form of religion would be Sumerian, Canaanite has it's influence from Akkadian culture and less Babylonian, as all were dwellers in Mesopotamia.
     
  11. ShamashUruk

    ShamashUruk Hello

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    There is only a connection of YHWH being head of the Israelite pantheon. While Zeus is head of the Greek pantheon, so each mythology is reflected so.

    The idea of godly figures predates to Sumer, and YHWH is much later construct concerning the Israelite's who came from Canaan, even now they speak a defunct Canaanite language.

    Please clarify.
     
  12. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure what you are looking for. You view YHWH as a later construct, I don't... He predates "all things." Of course, I place my faith in the fact the bible is trustworthy and His word... which if true, places Him before the beginning before "beginning" denotes time... which He is outside of.

    So, what exactly are you asking me?

    Thanks. :)
    Ken
     
  13. ShamashUruk

    ShamashUruk Hello

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    The Israelite's come out of Canaan with the YHWH he isn't mentioned before this time. Abraham comes from Ur (later Ur of Chaldeas) hence he is Sumer. So we don't see Sumer concepts directly in the Israelite culture, we see Canaanite concepts in the Israelite culture. Ba'al is related to the storm God as is YHWH, much later in the New Testament myths we see Jesus as being able to calm storms. But, pre Israel we don't at all see YHWH, so when you say YHWH is a pre time deity, this is a foreign and inconclusive claim. Reason for this is that YHWH is constructed alongside Israelite's and not in earlier polytheistic cultures, as YHWH is head of the Israel pantheon and not any other culture's.

    There is an inherent issue concerning the Bible as it is diversely a religious writing or collection of writings, and from its beginnings with St Moses who penned the Deuteronomy about 1700 BC indicates a history of (at least from one side) neighboring cultures, with inferences to other cultures and not necessarily specifics.

    A short history of Israel and Ba'al worship, in biblical record the worship of Baal threatened Israel from the period of the Judges down to the monarchy.

    It's assumed in 1 Kings 11:4 that this was the case for Solomon’s reign. Names with ba‘al as the theophoric element, such as Jerubbaal, Eshbaal, and Meribbaal, have been taken to indicate that Israelite society, including some royal circles, viewed the worship of Baal as a legitimate practice. Indeed, some scholars interpret these names as evidence both that ba‘al was a title for Yahweh and that the cult of Baal coexisted with the cult of Yahweh.

    Inscriptions from Samaria, the capital city of the northern kingdom, provide an important witness for the ninth or eighth century. These inscriptions, called the Samaria ostraca, contain at least five names with the theophoric element of ba‘al as opposed to nine names with the Yahweh component.

    By way of contrast, no personal names with ba‘al as the theophoric element are extant from Judah. These data have prompted some scholarly speculation about the widespread acceptance of Baal from the period of the Judges down through the fall of the northern kingdom in, especially in the north. According to 1 Kings 17-19, the ninth century marked a critical time for the cult of Baal in Israel. The biblical and extrabiblical sources provide a wide array of information pertaining to the cult of Baal in Israel and Phoenicia during this period. The biblical record dramatically presents the spread of the cult of Phoenician Baal in Samaria. Jezebel, daughter of Ittobaal, king of Tyre,
    and wife of Ahab, king of the northern kingdom, strongly sponsored the worship of Baal (1 Kings 16:31). First, Ahab built a temple to Baal, which is said to have been in Samaria (1 Kings 16:32). From 2 Kings 13:6, it is clear that Baal had his own temple in the environs of Samaria, apart from the cult of the national god, Yahweh (cf. 1 Kings 16:32; 2 Kings 10:21-27). Ahab also erected an asherah, whose location and relationship to Baal are not specified. Elijah, the enemy of Ahab, and the measures that Ahab and Jezebel took to support the worship of Baal in the capital are presented in 1 Kings 17-19. Jezebel persecuted the prophets of Yahweh (1 Kings 18:3), but provided income to the prophets of Baal and Asherah (1 Kings 18:19). Later, in a speech to Yahweh, Elijah says that he is the only prophet of Yahweh to have escaped Ahab and Jezebel
    (1 Kings 19:10).

    To judge from the biblical sources, the baal of Jezebel was a god with power over the rain, like Ugaritic Baal. In 1 Kings 17- 19 is stressed Yahweh’s power over nature, which corresponds to various phenomena associated with Baal in the Ugaritic texts. These powers include dominion over the storm (1 Kings 17:1-17; 18:41-46). The prophets of “the baal” compete with Elijah on Mount Carmel to see whose god truly has power over nature (1 Kings 18). One of the functions of 1 Kings 17-19 is to prove that Yahweh has power over all of these phenomena, but unlike the baal of Jezebel, Yahweh transcends these manifestations of divine power (1 Kings 19, esp. v. 11).295 Jezebel’s own name, ’izebel, “where is the Prince?” (e.g., 1 Kings 16:31; 18:4f.; 19:1; 21:5f.; 2 Kings 9:7), recalls the specific wording of human concern expressed over Baal’s death, attested in
    the Ugaritic Baal cycle (KTU 1.6 IV 4-5).

    That the biblical baal was a Phoenician god with power over the storm may be deduced from extrabiblical texts. The baal is identified either with Melqart or Baal Shamem. Nothing in the meager Phoenician sources bearing on this god directly contradicts an identification with Melqart. Perhaps he was the main city god of Tyre, since in KAI 47:1 he is called the “lord of Tyre” (b‘l ṣr).299 Furthermore, it might be argued that the baal of Jezebel should be Melqart, since his name means “king of the city,” presumably referring to Tyre (although this point perhaps presupposes that his name and cult originated at Tyre, a conclusion beyond the scope of the currently available information). A primary feature of his cult seems to be his “awakening” from death. Melqart is the Herakles whom Josephus calls the “dead hero” (hērōi enagizousi) who receives offerings. Josephus (Antiquities 8.146) also mentions that Hiram “brought about the resurrection of Herakles” (tou hērakleous egersin epoiēsato). The title “raiser of Herakles” (egerse[itēn tou] herakleou) occurs in a Roman period inscription from Philadelphia. This cult likely underlies the title mqm ’lm, “the raiser of the god(s),” in a second-century Phoenician inscription from Rhodes (KAI 44:2). Arguments identifying the Baal of 1 Kings 17-19 with Melqart rely largely on viewing the taunt of 1
    Kings 18:27 as an allusion to this rite of “awakening.” Yet the ancient Near Eastern notion of the “sleeping god” in this verse is wider than the specific cult of Melqart. Sleep is attributed to deities in Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Canaan, including Yahweh (Pss. 44:24[E 23]; 78:65).301 There is no evidence indicating that Melqart was a storm-god, although appeal might be made to his lineage presented in Philo of Byblos (PE 1.10.27): “Demarous had a son Melkarthos, who is also known as Herakles.” From this connection between Melqart and Demarous, a title of Baal Haddu in the Ugaritic texts, it might be inferred that the nature of Melqart was meteorological.
     
  14. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    It sounds to me you took a religious history course in college and think you have this all figured out. Look, I can go line by line and make the point but I am not thinking you are here to learn, you sound more like one who wants to impart on others. And on this topic, I am not interested. There are far more important things to spend my time on... no offense, but without knowing you are willing to seriously consider alternatives, it just isn't worth my time. Too many pans in the fire already.

    Shalom.
     
  15. ShamashUruk

    ShamashUruk Hello

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    I am a polytheist, are you stating that the Bible does not contain history? Should the history not be scrutinized?
     
  16. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member

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    You obviously don't believe it contains history, or accurate history, because it plainly places Him before ALL other "gods." That aside, like I said, I get the feeling that I can produce more than enough evidence and you won't receive it.... so why waste our time?

    I am sure you're a nice guy... but my comment in this thread was not to you. In fact, you have taken my comment to the OP well beyond the scope of my comment. Sorry... I am not interested in this topic even if I thought you might receive something. It just doesn't matter to me... Zeus was the result of a fallen angel mating with a human woman... there is no comparing him to YHWH.

    Take care. :)
    Ken
     
  17. ShamashUruk

    ShamashUruk Hello

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    My earlier statement is that the Bible does contain history, for example the flood epic is one of many flood epics, but the idea that the Israelite's adopted that epic is remarkable and fascinating.

    Yes Bible makes many claims, I have no doubt it claims and signifies monotheism hence the "all other Gods" statement. I am not sure what evidence that is extra biblical that you can produce.

    But to make a statement about Zeus without understanding the nature of Zeus with general knowledge of Greek mythology leads to erroneus and fallible statements. I do not see in any context of the Bible any statement that specifically says "Zeus is a fallen angel" I looked through Genesis already and have not found a specific statement. Also, the characterisitics of Zeus are commonly shared with El. The issue is that

    By your statement I can do the same thing, I can make blatantly and historically inaccurate statements concerning Judaism, Christianity and Islam as having the exact same belief, but I never would do that.
     
  18. ShamashUruk

    ShamashUruk Hello

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    So when dealing with history, you should express dates in figures. Ancient Greeks counted from the first Olympiad (776 BC), the Romans from the foundation of Rome (753 BC); the Moslems date from the Hijra (622 AD) and so on.

    So if we count back from the Olympiad, it's most likely that Greek's begin about 1500 bc or so, while the Israelite's begin earlier about 2500 bc or so alongside the Canaanite's. A must more extensive study would need to be completed on this. Pre-Canaan we find most likely Egypt and Babylon, as Babylon entered into Canaan at one point in time. Before Babylon and Egypt we find Akkad and before Akkad we would find Sumer.

    The only comparison that can be made is that Zeus is head of the Greek pantheon while YHWH is head of the Israelite pantheon. Zeus is a sky God, and God of lightning, thunder, law, order, justice. Hence, he has an connection to storms, YHWH is similarly a storm God, similar to Ba'al in Canaanite literature. YHWH is also a God of law, order, justice, storms.

    But if Israel predates the Greek's we'd find that YHWH also predates Zeus. However, Israel doesn't predate other polytheistic cultures. Also Zeus being an Indo-Euro centric deity cannot be truly seen, we see this in the epic of Zeus and Semele, as she was killed looking up Zeus. Even in Hittite culture we don't see "idols" to Gods per se, as they are also Indo-Euro. We do see the Golden Calf who is associated with El however in historical Biblical lore. As the Babylonian's would often slaughter bovines for sacrifice and for worship.
     
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