Yet another view of the sanctuary doctrine

[Laodicean]

Laodicean...do you still say 'mediator' in Hebrews 12:24 is not talking about the next life...?

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the
blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. KJV
​

Restin, in my understanding, "mediator" is not talking about the next life.

In the context of the whole book of Hebrews, and more specifically in the context of the verses leading up to verses 22-24, "mediator" is referring to the present establishment of the heavenly sanctuary system of things, following the death and resurrection of Jesus.

In the context of the entire book of Hebrews, the concept is that the earthly-sanctuary system has been replaced by the heavenly, whereby we can now (present tense) come boldly to the throne of God.

And in the context of the verses leading up to verses 22 to 24, the comparison is again made between the old and the new.

The old: Hebrews 12:18-21, "For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which [voice] they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, [that] Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake....."

The new: verses 22-29. Note the present tense in bold : "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,"

In previous chapters, we have been told that mediation has begun in heavenly places at the death and resurrection of Jesus. And here we are told that we can now come to mount Sion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem -- in other words, come boldy to the throne of God, not in the next life, but now.

"And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but NOW he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God [is] a consuming fire."

So I think that v. 22, that talks aout the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, is referring to our ability to now boldly approach the throne of the living God who dwells in the heavenly Jerusalem, mount Sion.

Further, if "mediator" and "mediation" are understood to mean that we need someone to reconcile us to God, to intercede for us when we sin, then it is reasonable to conclude that in the next life, where there will be no more sin or sinners, there will not be need for a mediator or intercessor. So any mention of "mediator" must refer to our present sin-filled life, not the next.

 

[Restin]

Laodicean...thanks for more fully presenting your position, think I see where you are coming from.
It is interesting how close we are, yet how far apart we see the same thing.

Further, if "mediator" and "mediation" are understood to mean that we need someone to reconcile us to God, to intercede for us when we sin, then it is reasonable to conclude that in the next life, where there will be no more sin or sinners, there will not be need for a mediator or intercessor. So any mention of "mediator" must refer to our present sin-filled life, not the next.

'Mediation' is not limited to the work of reconciliation for sin or sinners,
as good and needed as that is, that is ONLY part of the work of a mediator.

A. Jesus Christ came to Mediate my sin...(old covenant)
​

B. Jesus Christ continues to Mediate for me eternally, to keep me FROM sinning (new covenant)
​

It is one thing to make a sick person well, and whole.
It is another thing, to keep this same person FROM ever getting sick again!

Understanding the work, the office of Jesus Christ, high priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek gives us a greater appreciation for the New Covenant and it's eternal 'mediatorial' benefits! Only because of the continual 'mediatorial' work of Christ throughout eternity...sin will never rise the second time!

In/By FAITH & HOPE I have peace with God and thereby
He enables me to BOLDLY come before the Lord.
In Christ....Restin

 

[Laodicean]

Laodicean...thanks for more fully presenting your position, think I see where you are coming from.
It is interesting how close we are, yet how far apart we see the same thing.


'Mediation' is not limited to the work of reconciliation for sin or sinners,
as good and needed as that is, that is ONLY part of the work of a mediator.

A. Jesus Christ came to Mediate my sin...(old covenant)
​

B. Jesus Christ continues to Mediate for me eternally, to keep me FROM sinning (new covenant)​

​

Do you have any texts that connect the new covenant with eternal mediation? Though, first, we may have to come to agreement as to what we understand "covenant" to mean.

It is one thing to make a sick person well, and whole.

It is another thing, to keep this same person FROM ever getting sick again!

Restin, you have presented a very interesting angle for me to consider. Very good point.

Understanding the work, the office of Jesus Christ, high priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek gives us a greater appreciation for the New Covenant and it's eternal 'mediatorial' benefits! Only because of the continual 'mediatorial' work of Christ throughout eternity...sin will never rise the second time!

I like that thought. I'm wondering, though, if "forever" is used here in the same sense it is used about hellfire, where it says in Revelation 14:7, "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." SDAs have reasoed from all other texts relating to the subject of death and hell, and have concluded that the "forever" in the case of Revelation 14:7 means simply that the material is burned up forever, never to return, and not that the material keps on burning forever (whch concept of eternal burning goes against the moral law of love as well as the laws of physics).

Likewise, Jesus being a high priest forever could be interpreted that He becomes high priest for all time, as long as needed, with no repetitious dying, as with earthly priests.

I grant you that my interpretation is not the strongest, but it is also not unreasonable, either, especially in light of the declaration, "he that is righteous, let him be righteous still." Once righteous forever, there is no more need for mediation for sin.

In/By FAITH & HOPE I have peace with God and thereby He enables me to BOLDLY come before the Lord.
In Christ....Restin

I do see your point. It's a new one to me, and I find it intriguing.

I can agree with you that the righteousness that we are given will always belong to Jesus, so that we can never ever say, "my righteousness." It will always be "Christ, my righteousness". Does this mean that mediation in a different sense will continue? Hmmm, I don't know. I suppose so, if we take the position that we will always need someone to intervene between us and God. But then again, I suppose not, if we are able to approach God boldly and with confidence? Food for thought.

Tell me, what do you think it means when, in the day of atonement in the earthly sanctuary, the priest transferred the sins of the people to the scapegoat? I have taken it to mean that Jesus would no longer be bearing our sins. What is your position on this?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

What is our final decision for or against God? Will we remain unshakeable in that decision?

What is His final decision for or against us? Will He remain unshakeable in that decision? Is God sovereign?

The time just before Jesus returns is unique in human history. Where, in the past, one's fate was sealed at death, now we are approaching a time when our fate will be sealed while we are still living. Hence the difference between first-apartment symbolism and second-apartment symbolism. We are at a point where, once and for all, the judgment is made "he that is righteous, let him be righteous still, and he that is filthy let him be filthy still."

The million dollar question is whether this point takes place before or simultaneous with Christ's second coming. If it is before, and if we must stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator, then it seems clear that humans will need to be capable of some pretty amazing things through their own strength. This is the acquiles heel of the SDA perspective on the close of probation.

Does the Bible teach us that Jesus will continue to bear our sins throughout eternity? I don't think so. Whether he ceases to bear our sins just before He returns, or after He returns, the fact remains that there comes a time when we will no longer stand before a holy God with a mediator. Why? Because we have been declared "righteous still." No need for mediation if we are already declared righteous.

The issue with the SDA view of "just before" is that it relies on human strength to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator prior to Christ's second coming. This isn't Biblical.

There is no text that says that Jesus will never cease to intercede for us.

Hebrews 7 tells us that He always lives to intercede for us. Where is the cessation in that?

I agree with you that atonement for sins has been completed at the cross. But that is not what the symbolic Day of Atonement is about.

I don't understand the "but." You believe that Christ's atonement was completed at the cross. Your denomination teaches that, in 1844, Jesus Christ began His final phase of atonement.

Actually, this is incorrect. This not what the sanctuary message is about. It is a given that Christ's atonement for sins is complete and perfect. But remember, the sanctuary message is not about the completeness or incompleteness of Christ's sacrifice. It is about something else altogether.

Here is why I believe "the sanctuary message" includes a teaching that Christ's act of atonement was not completed on the cross:

"In 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, to perform the closing work of atonement, preparatory to His coming" (The Great Controversy, page 481).

“The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel sin. It will stand in the sanctuary until the final atonement” (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 357).

“Now while our great High Priest is making atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ” (The Great Controversy, p. 623).

“Instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming” (The Great Controversy, p. 422).
​

The sanctuary doctrine teaches that just before Jesus is ready to return to this earth, there is a day-of-atonement stir of activity, wherein He prepares to remove from Himself our sins that He has been bearing for so long, and He places them where they truly belong, on the scapegoat that symbolizes satan.

So it is Satan -- and not Jesus Christ -- who bears our sins?

No, I do not agree that this aspect of the sanctuary message is in error. The second-apartment activity depicted in the earthly sanctuary points to an ending of Jesus' role of bearing our sins.

This is conditioned on the idea that JESUS DOES NOT ALWAYS LIVE TO INTERCEDE FOR US. Hebrews 7 makes it clear that this cannot be true.

"The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."
​

Can the SDA position on the close of probation possibly be true?

As long as Christ covers us with His righteousness, then, yes, in the sight of God, we are considered to be completely sinless. Stick with Jesus, and you are safe.

I'm sorry, but I don't follow this. If Christ ceases to intercede for us, then how is it that He is covering us with His righteousness? It seems that, the only way that I can stand without His intercession is if I am completely and totally sinless -- not credited with His sinlessness -- but actually sinless myself.

As to our condition outside of Christ's covering? All our own righteousness is as filthy rags. So no, we will never, on our own, reach a state of complete sinlessness before the close of time.

I agree. However, I remain concerned by statements such as these:

"Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified. Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression.” (Manuscript Releases, vol. 8, pp. 98-99)

"(Christ) came to this world and lived a sinless life, that in His power His people might also live lives of sinlessness." (Review and Herald, April 1, 1902)

"But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain. Let no one say, we cannot remedy our defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome” (Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 331).
​

BFA

 

[Restin]

Do you have any texts that connect the new covenant with eternal mediation? Though, first, we may have to come to agreement as to what we understand "covenant" to mean.

Re: covenant... Without quoting all the verses, in the old covenant God makes promises to man and man makes promises back to God, as illustrated at Mt. Sinai. The new covenant is God's promises to man - man promises God nothing, as in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and repeated in Hebrews 8.

For mediation... consider the need for having 'priests' in the next life.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. KJV

Tell me, what do you think it means when, in the day of atonement in the earthly sanctuary, the priest transferred the sins of the people to the scapegoat? I have taken it to mean that Jesus would no longer be bearing our sins. What is your position on this?

In previous years, I thought similar to what you are saying. Today, as I study the day of atonement as given in Lev 16 in light of Heb, I believe Jesus is represented by both the live goat and the scapegoat.

Hebrews 13:11-13

11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the
sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with
his own blood, suffered without the gate.

13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp,
bearing his reproach. KJV

Yes...there is much to think about in this area.
Peace...Restin

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

What is our final decision for or against God? Will we remain unshakeable in that decision?
​

What is His final decision for or against us? Will He remain unshakeable in that decision? Is God sovereign?

It was God's sovereign decision to make us free moral agents. Therefore, His final decision for or against us is based on our freewill choice for or against Him.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

The time just before Jesus returns is unique in human history. Where, in the past, one's fate was sealed at death, now we are approaching a time when our fate will be sealed while we are still living. Hence the difference between first-apartment symbolism and second-apartment symbolism. We are at a point where, once and for all, the judgment is made "he that is righteous, let him be righteous still, and he that is filthy let him be filthy still."
​

The million dollar question is whether this point takes place before or simultaneous with Christ's second coming. If it is before, and if we must stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator, then it seems clear that humans will need to be capable of some pretty amazing things through their own strength. This is the acquiles heel of the SDA perspective on the close of probation.

You seem to think that if mediation ceases simultaneous with the second coming, that all will be well. But if it ceases shortly before the second coming, suddenly we will be standing in our own strength. Why the difference? Cessation of mediation, whenever it happens, means the battle is over, the war has been won, and there is no more temptation to sin.

The real Achilles' heel may be within a perspective that says that cessation of mediation means standing in our own strength. Not so. When mediation ceases, the declaration has been made, "He that is righteous, let him be righteous still," which means that you are not standing in your own righteousness (or strength) but rendered permanently safe in Christ's righteousness. You can stand without further mediation because you are sealed forever into Christ's righeousness. And whether this cessation of mediation occurs shortly before the second coming, simultaneous with the second coming, or after the second coming, the saved will never be standing alone in their own strength.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

Does the Bible teach us that Jesus will continue to bear our sins throughout eternity? I don't think so. Whether he ceases to bear our sins just before He returns, or after He returns, the fact remains that there comes a time when we will no longer stand before a holy God with a mediator. Why? Because we have been declared "righteous still." No need for mediation if we are already declared righteous.
​

The issue with the SDA view of "just before" is that it relies on human strength to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator prior to Christ's second coming. This isn't Biblical.

where do SDAs say that there comes a time that we must rely on our own strength to stand in the sight of a holy God? Is it because you are equating "without a mediator" with "rely on our own strength"? The two terms do not mean the same thing. "Without a mediator" means no more mediation for sin because you have been declared righteous. If at the end of mediation, you have been declared righteous, then you don't need a mediator anymore, because you will no longer be sinning.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

There is no text that says that Jesus will never cease to intercede for us.
​

Hebrews 7 tells us that He always lives to intercede for us. Where is the cessation in that?

Like the word "forever" which can mean "lasting as long as the situation exists," the words "always" can mean "lasting as long as the situation exists. As long as there is sin, we will need an intercessor. Jesus always lives to intercede for us. But when sin ends, there is no more need for intercession.

Now, Restin made an interesting point that we would still always need Jesus as mediator, not to interecede for sin any longer, but to KEEP us from sinning. And maybe that's a possibility to think about......

Though, when I think more on that possibility, I think it sounds more like loss of freewill, if we are to be kept from sinning. Robots are kept from doing certain things. Free moral agents will not need to be kept from doing wrong. They will always have the ability to choose.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

I agree with you that atonement for sins has been completed at the cross. But that is not what the symbolic Day of Atonement is about.
​

I don't understand the "but." You believe that Christ's atonement was completed at the cross. Your denomination teaches that, in 1844, Jesus Christ began His final phase of atonement.

Christ's atoning sacrifice is perfect and, yes, completed at the cross. But that does not mean that the benefits of this sacrifice is applied to all people regardless of their choice. Nor does it mean that all will go to heaven, regardless of their wishes, desires, choice. Administering the benefits of the perfect atonement is a ministry carried out over time, and the final phase of this "administration of the atonement's benefit" began in 1844, the beginning of the time of the end.

So...just because the benefits of Christ's atoning sacrifice is carried out over time does not mean that the atonement itself is incomplete. 1844 is not about completing an imperfect atonement, but about recognizing that we are living in a time when Jesus is ready to return, and we want to be sure that we, the living, are accepting the benefits of the completed atonement that was accomplished back at the cross.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Actually, this is incorrect. This not what the sanctuary message is about. It is a given that Christ's atonement for sins is complete and perfect. But remember, the sanctuary message is not about the completeness or incompleteness of Christ's sacrifice. It is about something else altogether.
​

Here is why I believe "the sanctuary message" includes a teaching that Christ's act of atonement was not completed on the cross:

"In 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, to perform the closing work of atonement, preparatory to His coming" (The Great Controversy, page 481).
​

"Closing work of atonement" is the same thing as I described above. It has nothing to do with an incomplete atonement, but with the final application of a completed atonement.

“The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel sin. It will stand in the sanctuary until the final atonement” (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 357).

​

Admitted, "final atonement" does give the impression that another atonement is to take place in a series of atonements, of which this is the final. But since EGW did not think that the atonement at the cross was incomplete or unfinished -- see:

He [Christ] planted the cross between Heaven and earth, and when the Father beheld the sacrifice of His Son, He [the Father] bowed before it in recognition of its perfection. ‘It is enough,’ He [the Father] said. ‘The Atonement is complete.’ ” Review and Herald, September 24, 1901.

“[Christ] offered in man’s behalf a complete sacrifice to God. By virtue of this atonement, He has power to offer to man perfect righteousness and full salvation.” The Faith I Live By, 50.

then EGW's use of the term, "final atonement," has to mean something else, such as the final administration of the benefits of the atonement accomplished at the cross.

““Now while our great High Priest is making atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ” (The Great Controversy, p. 623).

​

How do we become perfect? By being IN Christ. Whatever good works come out of us from abiding in Christ is goodness that belongs to Christ. It is not goodness of our own works. This is what EGW meant in the above by "become perfect in Christ."

““Instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming” (The Great Controversy, p. 422).

By now it should be clear that "closing work of atonement" refers to the closing work of administering the benefits of a perfect atoning sacrifice, not that an incomplete atonement sacrifice is finally being completed.

​

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

The sanctuary doctrine teaches that just before Jesus is ready to return to this earth, there is a day-of-atonement stir of activity, wherein He prepares to remove from Himself our sins that He has been bearing for so long, and He places them where they truly belong, on the scapegoat that symbolizes satan.
​

So it is Satan -- and not Jesus Christ -- who bears our sins?

Satan does not bear our sins in a redeeming sense, as Jesus does. He bears them all as his own, and nothing about his taking responsibility for the sins he has caused, has the power to redeem. The difference between Jesus bearing our sins and satan bearing our sins is in the bearer. Jesus has the power to bear our sins for a season, and because of His infinite life and death, and His choice to extend grace to us while He carries our sins, we can be saved through Him. But satan has no power to extend grace to us and no infinite life within himself that he can proffer to the sinner who has followed him. So, "bears our sins" is a term that has two completely different meanings, depending on who is bearing those sins. You can't equate satan to Jesus and say, well, then, it is satan who bears our sins, as if the bearing alone is what saves us. Note the source and power of the "bearer."

Originally Posted by Laodicean

No, I do not agree that this aspect of the sanctuary message is in error. The second-apartment activity depicted in the earthly sanctuary points to an ending of Jesus' role of bearing our sins.
​

This is conditioned on the idea that JESUS DOES NOT ALWAYS LIVE TO INTERCEDE FOR US. Hebrews 7 makes it clear that this cannot be true.

"The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."
​

Can the SDA position on the close of probation possibly be true?

Yes. If you believe that Jesus will come back a second time to end sin and take us to heaven, then you have to believe that there is such a thing as probationary time. The fact that time will end and eternity will begin means that there is a certain period of time in which sin and sinners will exist...unless you believe that sin and sinners will continue on into eternity?

Originally Posted by Laodicean

As long as Christ covers us with His righteousness, then, yes, in the sight of God, we are considered to be completely sinless. Stick with Jesus, and you are safe.
​

I'm sorry, but I don't follow this. If Christ ceases to intercede for us, then how is it that He is covering us with His righteousness? It seems that, the only way that I can stand without His intercession is if I am completely and totally sinless -- not credited with His sinlessness -- but actually sinless myself.

intercession/mediation is for reconciliation of the sinner to God. Once reconciled, we are covered with Christ's righteousness. Stay reconciled and you will remain covered by His righteousness. Intercession is one thing. Being covered with Christ's righteousness is another. They are not the same thing. When the time comes that you stand without an intercessor or mediator, you will have been declared "righteous still" or "forever righteous." So, therefore, you will be seen, in the eyes of God, as perfect and sinless. Why? Because He sees that you are covered with the perfect righteousness of Christ. We are never "sinless myself." It is always, "Christ, my righteousness. And once sin is eradicated from the universe, you are forever the owner of Christ's perfect righteousness.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

As to our condition outside of Christ's covering? All our own righteousness is as filthy rags. So no, we will never, on our own, reach a state of complete sinlessness before the close of time.
​

I agree. However, I remain concerned by statements such as these:

"Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified. Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression.” (Manuscript Releases, vol. 8, pp. 98-99)
​

How do we achieve perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law? By abiding in Christ, for only HE has accomplished perfect obedience to the requirements of God's law. Note the words above "Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments." How do we obey all the commandments? Through faith in Christ. What is this faith in Christ? Faith that His righteousness will not only cover us, but be worked out in us through His power. Stop trying to be good, and let Jesus be good IN you.

"(Christ) came to this world and lived a sinless life, that in His power His people might also live lives of sinlessness." (Review and Herald, April 1, 1902)

​

note: "in His power." Emphasis on Christ, not on ourselves.

"But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain. Let no one say, we cannot remedy our defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome”(

Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 331).

​

This last quote is about "faith without works is dead." Yes, we have battles to fight and faults to overcome, but this is not in the context of saving ourselves through our works, but in the context of having accepted Christ's righteousness and, being already saved, we now have a work to do, not to save ourselves, but to live out what Jesus is working within us.

All the while we are battling our character defects, we are still covered by Christ's righteousness so that in the eyes of God, we remain perfect and sinless, even as we struggle to overcome. And should we die while having not yet overcome certain traits of character, we will not be lost. Like the thief on the cross, who had no chance to battle any defects in his character, but who will be saved, anyway, because he is covered by Christ's righteousness, we too, will be judged perfect, as long as we abide in Christ.

I know the following words from your quote above can give a different impression: "Let no one say, we cannot remedy our defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life."

Failure to obtain everlasting life is not because we have not overcome our defects of character. In God's eyes, those defects have already been overcome through Christ. Failure to obtain eternal life is a result of not looking to Jesus and trusting Him. If, instead of trusting Him, we say, as some do on this forum, "it is not possible to stop sinning. We cannot remedy our defects. The law has been done away with, so it's okay to continue sinning," this attitude is what will cause us to fail of obtaining everlasting life. Our eyes have been taken off of Jesus and been fixed on ourselves, and that change of direction leads to our loss.

And I agree that the final words of your last quote above, can be even more troubling if taken in the wrong contxt: "The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome”

All that EGW is talking about here is choice. Not effort. But choice. Choose to trust Jesus, and you will overcome. Choose not to trust Jesus, then you cannot overcome. And again, the overcoming is not in an effort to save ourselves, but because we have been saved. Because we have been saved, we work. But it is a labor of love, not a labor to be saved.

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Do you have any texts that connect the new covenant with eternal mediation? Though, first, we may have to come to agreement as to what we understand "covenant" to mean.
​

Re: covenant

... Without quoting all the verses, in the old covenant God makes promises to man and man makes promises back to God, as illustrated at Mt. Sinai. The new covenant is God's promises to man - man promises God nothing, as in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and repeated in Hebrews 8.

nice that we are on the same page as to the meaning of covenant -- promise or agreement.

For mediation...

consider the need for having 'priests' in the next life.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. KJV

Context.

I guess you'd need to determine who the four beasts and 24 elders represent in this symbolic vision of the opening of the seven seals. Do they represent people during earth time? Or people after earth time? Considering that the seven seals are normally interpreted to mean various periods throughout earth's history, "kings and priests" may not apply to the next life.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

Tell me, what do you think it means when, in the day of atonement in the earthly sanctuary, the priest transferred the sins of the people to the scapegoat? I have taken it to mean that Jesus would no longer be bearing our sins. What is your position on this?
​

In previous years, I thought similar to what you are saying. Today, as I study the day of atonement as given in Lev 16 in light of Heb, I believe Jesus is represented by both the live goat and the scapegoat.

you mean the sacrificed goat and the live scapegoat, right? One was killed, the other driven into the wilderness, alive.

Hebrews 13:11-13

11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the
sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with
his own blood, suffered without the gate.

13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp,
bearing his reproach. KJV

the above texts apply to animals sacrificed at other times than the Day of Atonement. Yes, the sacrifice of Jesus did indeed take place without the gate and/or camp. He died for the whole world, not just for the children of israel. But the scapegoat is not sacrificed. It is sent out into the wilderness, alive. So I don't think that the sacrificed goat and the live goat both represent Jesus, in this case.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Lao . . . . I have a couple more thoughts and then I'll let it rest.

Thought #1. It seems that "forever" means "forever" when we're discussing the sabbath. But "forever" does not mean "forever" when we're discussing the priesthood of Jesus Christ.

In your opinion, does the following passage allow for an understanding that Jesus Christ will one day cease to intercede for me?

"The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."
​

What do the words "permanently," "always" and "forever" mean?

In Exodus 31:17, what does the word "forever" mean?

Thought #2. The SDA denomination teaches that Christ's closing work of atonement began in 1844.

Does this allow for the possibility that Christ's atonement was fully completed at the cross?

Was Ellen G. White correct when she asserts that, in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming?
​

You have many answers and I don't want to rob you of that. As for me, I mostly have questions. My posts likely reflect that. I can tell that your beliefs are important to you and I understand that. After all, I once believed as you do now. May God richly bless you on your journey and may you find the answers to questions you aren't yet ready to ask.

BFA

 

[Laodicean]

Lao . . . . I have a couple more thoughts and then I'll let it rest.

Thought #1. It seems that "forever" means "forever" when we're discussing the sabbath. But "forever" does not mean "forever" when we're discussing the priesthood of Jesus Christ.
​

In my opinion, "forever" lasts for as long as a situation exists. If a situation exists for X number of years, then whatever occurs within that time up until the end of X years can be considered to have occurred forever -- X years worth of "forever."

Likewise, if a period of sin requires a priesthood, then as long (meaning, forever) as the situation of sin exists, priesthood will be required.

In your opinion, does the following passage allow for an understanding that Jesus Christ will one day cease to intercede for me?

"The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."
​

The point being made here, I think, is that where former priests had to be in great number because they were prevented by death from continuing, Jesus, because He lives forever, is able to hold His priesthood permanently, as long as the need for a priest exists. And that understanding is implied in Scripture, because the expectation in the Bible is that sin will not exist forever. No sin, no need for a priest. Until then, as long as there is need of intercession for our sins, Jesus always lives to make intercession for us.

What do the words "permanently," "always" and "forever" mean?

​

To me, they mean exactly what I described above. As long as the situation exists that requires priesthood, that priesthood will be permanent, always there to intercede for the sinner. When the situation ends, that is, when sin ceases to exist, then there is no further need for priesthood.

Tell me this, BFA: Do you think that sin will continue throughout eternity? Do you think that we will need a priest's intercession for our sins throughout eternity?

In Exodus 31:17, what does the word "forever" mean?

"Forever" here, again, means, as long as a situation lasts.

Thought #2. The SDA denomination teaches that Christ's closing work of atonement began in 1844.

Does this allow for the possibility that Christ's atonement was fully completed at the cross?

Yes, this concept allows not only for the possibility, but the reality that Christ's atonement was fully completed at the cross. But there is "atonement" and there is "Day of Atonement." Two different things.

It is as if I had prepared for you the perfect antidote for any disease in the world. At the moment I have created the antidote, it is perfect and fully effective. No need to make it over again. And over time, as you come to me with your various diseases, I apply the antidote. There finally comes a time when I am getting ready to heal you permanently because I am no longer going to be in the role of physician. So I announce that you need to come on such-and-such a date for the final administering of my antidote. And this time, the administration will not ever need to be repeated again because this time I will take you with me to a country that has no disease in it whatsoever.

The atonement is the antidote.

The Day of Atonement is the final administration of the antidote.

Okay, it's just an analogy, and analogies tend to fall apart sooner or later, but hopefully you get the idea -- the atonement was perfect, but the application of its benefits depends on the receiver from moment to moment, right up to the end of time.

Was Ellen G. White correct when she asserts that, in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming?

Yes, I think EGW was correct in this assertion. Personally, I think that she was describing the heavenly sanctuary in symbolic terms, but the general concept is correct. Translating her symbolism into real-world terms, I'd phrase it this way: 1844 began the closing work of applying the benefits of a perfect atonment to those living in that period of the end of time, and that closing work was represented, in the earthly sanctuary, as "entering the most holy place."

You have many answers and I don't want to rob you of that.

I'd really prefer it if you'd go ahead and "rob" me of my answers, if you can. Not as a debate, but if you see weaknesses in my answers, or think you have a better answer, then share them. To withhold your suggestions would actually be robbing me of fresh insights, don't you think?

As for me, I mostly have questions. My posts likely reflect that.

I am usually in question mode in most areas of thought -- science being a good example. But when it comes to spiritual matters, I think it is important to know what you believe, and to not be blown about by every wind of doctrine. 1 Peter 3:15 says, "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear."

I can tell that your beliefs are important to you and I understand that. After all, I once believed as you do now. May God richly bless you on your journey and may you find the answers to questions you aren't yet ready to ask.

What are some of the questions that you think I'm not ready to ask? There's no need to hold back, you know. Ask me the questions that you think I'm not ready to ask, and I bet I've asked them already and figured out the answers. Umm, well, we'll see....

 

[Restin]

Laodicean...ohh, here I am three days behind and I thought I was trying to keep up! Ummm!

...Considering that the seven seals are normally interpreted to mean various periods throughout earth's history, "kings and priests" may not apply to the next life.

Rev 5:9 sings the 'new song' after the seals are all broken, v10 is the culmination.
And, a couple more eferences about 'priests' ...

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father;
to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. KJV
​

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. KJV
​

Now, 'the order of Melchizedek' ... 'forever' and ....'priests'.

Psalms 110:4 and repeated in Hebrews 5:7. speaking of Christ 'you are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek'. Hebrews 7 brings these together.... from symbolism to reality!

Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. KJV a priest perpetually... NASU
​

It takes a while to understand the 'order of Melchezidek', one having NO beginning and NO ending!
Priest FOREVER, CONTINUALLY, PERPETUALLY...wonderful!

​

More on the scapegoat next (likely in the morning).
Appreciate the discussion...Restin

 

[Laodicean]

Laodicean...ohh, here I am three days behind and I thought I was trying to keep up! Ummm!

Originally Posted by Laodicean

...Considering that the seven seals are normally interpreted to mean various periods throughout earth's history, "kings and priests" may not apply to the next life.
​

Rev 5:9 sings the 'new song' after the seals are all broken, v10 is the culmination.

Restin, you really make me think. That's a fresh perspective that I had not thought about.

Do you think, then, that the seals being opened are a parenthetical between verses 6 and 10?

And what do you do with the past and future tenses in verse 10, "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." It seems to me that "we shall reign" addresses only kings, and not priests, but maybe priests can also be considered to reign?

And, a couple more eferences about 'priests' ...

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. KJV
​

​

I guess I need to understand better what being made a priest means. What is expected of us if we are made priests? Any ideas?

​

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. KJV

​

good text, this one. It sure supports your point. I'm trying to wrap my mind around what being a priest of God and of Christ entails.

Now, 'the order of Melchizedek' ... 'forever' and ....'priests'.

Psalms 110:4 and repeated in Hebrews 5:7. speaking of Christ 'you are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek'. Hebrews 7 brings these together.... from symbolism to reality!
​

​

Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. KJV a priest perpetually... NASU
​

​

Okay, this one I thought I had managed to understand by interpreting "forever" to apply to a situation as long as it lasts. Do I need to rethink this?

It takes a while to understand the 'order of Melchezidek', one having NO beginning and NO ending!

Priest FOREVER, CONTINUALLY, PERPETUALLY...wonderful!​

Praise BE!!!! : I rejoice with you in this...whatever "forever" means!

I suppose it will take just as long to understand the God aspect of Jesus, He also having no beginning and no ending. Maybe the Word was also Melchezidek back in the days of Abraham? And that same Word became flesh and appeard to us in the role of Jesus?

What an amazing God!

Of course that still leaves me wondering why there would be need for the ministration of a priest throughout eternity. Do you have any ideas why?

More on the scapegoat next (likely in the morning).
Appreciate the discussion...Restin

Looking forward to it!

 

[Restin]

By:Laodicean... Tell me, what do you think it means when, in the day of atonement in the earthly sanctuary, the priest transferred the sins of the people to the scapegoat? I have taken it to mean that Jesus would no longer be bearing our sins. What is your position on this?

By:Restin... In previous years, I thought similar to what you are saying. Today, as I study the day of atonement as given in Lev 16 in light of Heb, I believe Jesus is represented by both the live goat and the scapegoat.

Laodicean, as you read Hebrews keep the details of the 'Day of Atonement' in mind as recorded in Leviticus 16. Both words 'scapegoat' and 'live goat' interchange. [to shorten, will skip some verses]

Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat,
shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him,
and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
​

20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling [atoning for] the holy place,
and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat,
and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel,
and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat,
and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: KJV
​

Today we worship a Jesus who is 'alive'...He IS NOT DEAD! What is HE doing...?

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but AFTER THIS the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for
him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. KJV

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God,
that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God,
which is your reasonable service. KJV
​

TODAY, you/I are going to JUDGMENT. Whereas, I use to dread the thought, I can now look forward to that day...that is the day my 'conscience' is to be forever cleared of 'guilt', because the penalty has already been paid.

Heb 9:13-15

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling
the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself
without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death,
for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which
are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. KJV
​

How is it that Jesus is both the "Lords' goat' and the 'scapegoat'...? The 'Lord's goat' DIED,
BUT...today He is LIVING, not to 'atone' for sin, but to PURGE the [our] CONSCIENCE from
dead works to serve the living God. In this sense, it appears that WE, are represented
by the 'live goat', but it's really US IN HIM, physically living in this wilderness of sin!

Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat,
shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him,
and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. KJV
​

Amazing Grace...Restin

 

[mrasell]

the sanctuary symbols have a three fold application:

The Temple
Christological: Christ is a temple (John 2:19-22)
Ecclesiological: The church is a temple (Eph. 2:21-22)
Eschatological: The heavenly temple is cleansed (Daniel 8:14, 26)


Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread
Christological: Jesus the Passover Lamb is slain, provision is made for the removal of sin (Matthew 26:27-28)
Ecclesiological: The church is sanctified by the removal of the leaven of sin (1 Cor. 5:7)
Eschatological: We celebrate the supper of the Lamb, sin is finally removed (Rev. 19:7-9; 14:4-5)


Pentecost
Christological: Jesus is anointed by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 3:16-17)
Ecclesiological: The early rain is poured out on the church (Joel 2:23; Acts 2)
Eschatological: The latter rain is poured out on the church (Joel 2:23; Rev. 18:1)


The Day of Atonement
Christological: The Lord’s goat is slain (Lev. 16; Hebrews 9:25-26)
Ecclesiological: The church is cleansed/purified at the end of time (Malachi 3:2-3)
Eschatological: The heavenly temple is cleansed and the universe is cleansed of sin (Daniel 8:14; Rev. 11:19; 20)


Tabernacles
Christological: God was with us in Jesus (John 1:14)
Ecclesiological: Christ is among us through the Spirit (John 15:26; Matt. 18:20)
Eschatological: We will tabernacle with God in the New Jerusalem and the New Earth (Rev. 21-22)


The Priesthood
Christological: Christ became our High Priest by His death (Heb. 5:7-10)
Ecclesiological: Christ intercedes on our behalf in the heavenly temple (Hebrews 7:25)
Eschatological: Christ ministers in the Most Holy Place before returning to earth (Rev. 11:19)

(see my book, exploring the heavenly sanctuary, Adventist Enterprises - Home)