Yet another view of the sanctuary doctrine

[Laodicean]

There are various approaches to the sanctuary doctrine, some more or less informational than others. As with the proverbial "elephant in the room" the sanctuary "elephant" can be described in ways that, even though different, may carry truth.

I am putting my thoughts in a new thread so as not to distract from the discussion by Mrasell, which thread is following a somewhat different line of thought.

Here's what I can see from my angle here in the "room." My view is taken, not from various authors (including EGW), but from my own personal study of the Bible. I expect to be right in some ways and wrong in others, so insights and/or corrections, are welcome. Most of what follows is pretty elementary, but leads up to a somewhat different perspective, so bear with me.

As early as Genesis 4, there is evidence of provision for our salvation, as reflected in the sacrificial lamb. Cain sacrifices fruit. Abel offers a lamb. God accepts the lamb and rejects the labor of Cain's hands.

And what is the meaning of the lamb?

The relevance of the lamb mentioned in Genesis, is explained more clearly in the visual, hands-on object lesson of the earthly sanctuary which was established at the time Israel was brought out of Egypt. Salvation, and how it will play out in earth's history and timeline, was explained via the animal sacrifices and the symbolic sanctuary furniture and apartments. Jesus' sacrifice, portrayed most often by a lamb, is further explained in the sanctuary furniture and services.

What do the sanctuary services and its layout portray?

The sanctuary and its ceremonial laws were given as a shadow (or copy) of God's plan of salvation. Hebrews 8 and 9. These shadows point not only to how God saves us, but to when, in the stream of time, the plan to save us is
fulfilled. In 31 AD, the certainty and validity of salvation is confirmed, and the earthly sanctuary symbolism takes us on through to the final completion of the plan at the end of time and at the beginning of eternity. Based on Hebrews, it can be concluded that the sanctuary system is relevant not only to the Jewish nation, but to all time and to all humanity. The earthly sanctuary was an object lesson in forgiveness and overcoming....to be confirmed forever by the death and resurrection of the passover lamb (Jesus) in 31 AD.

What is the relevance to us of the sanctuary today?

Each part of the earthly sanctuary's structure and services represented a spiritual reality. Up until the death of Jesus, the earthly sanctuary was an object lesson of salvation, and in 31 AD, the object lesson became reality at the time of Jesus' death.

The lamb: The sacrificial lamb (pointing to 31 AD) reminded the Israelites that there was a way provided to escape the condemnation that comes with lawbreaking. Faith in the antitypical lamb (Jesus) provided the same forgiveness to humans living post-31AD as humans living pre-31AD.

The outer court: This is where the sacrificial lamb was slain, and this outer court represented the unconverted world.

The first apartment: The symbolic furniture found behind the first curtain/veil (Exodus 26:36) represented the tools that would help converts to grow as Christians, once they had accepted the forgiveness provided by the sacrificial lamb that was slain in the outer court . In the antitype, in real time, this work of growth was confirmed and commenced through mediation in heaven in 31 AD, and covered all who believed, pre and post 31 AD. (Hebrews 11:39, 40)

The second apartment: The symbols found behind the second curtain/veil (Exodus 26:31) represented a time of complete at-one-ment with God, preparing a people for God's presence. In real time, this period commenced at the end of the 2300-day prophecy, in 1844, and takes us on through to the Second Coming--God's presence. We are now living in what was once the symbolic "day of atonement" and now is a period of time in which we are to be putting away all sins, confessing and forsaking them in a final cleansing of the antitypical sanctuary.

What is the antitypical sanctuary?

The sanctuary in heaven is not necessarily a physical building. Rather, the term reflects a process of work being done for the church on earth. So, in fact, the "heavenly sanctuary" is actually a description of the church on earth (1 Corinthians 6:15 and 19), and this sanctuary (us) is merely reflected in heaven as seen in the books of life where the names of God's followers are written (Daniel 7:10 and Revelation 20:12).

So, to sum up this very sketchy proffer:

The way into God's presence has been opened to all at the death of Jesus. "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Heb. 4:16. Also, see John 16:23-28. We can now, by faith, enter the holy places in heaven, for wherever God's physical presence is, is a holy place.

But there is another aspect to be considered. It is the time sequence of Jesus' mediatorial work, as symbolized in the earthly sanctuary. The daily part of the symbolic sanctuary on earth points to the type and time of the work in heaven for all humanity, that began in 31 AD. The day of atonement in the symbolic sanctuary on earth points to the time at the end of the 2300-day prophecy, when the sanctuary (us here on earth) will be cleansed in readiness for the second coming. The church on earth, being cleansed, fullfils the prophecy that "then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

The sanctuary, then, is not some physical building in heaven that needs cleansing. It is we, the people, the church here on earth, of which there is a record in heaven of the people being judged as forgiven and cleansed finally, once and for all. As it says in Scripture: He that is righteous, let him be righteous still, and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Revelation 22:11.

I submit that one reason why the sanctuary doctrine seems to be a dead doctrine and irrelevant to our times, is because we don't connect the sanctuary to the church. We place it afar off in the heavens, in some heavenly building that makes us think, hey, what's that all about, anyway. What does that have to do with us? We think that it doesn't make sense that some place in heaven would need cleansing. So we put it aside as useless and move on.

But if we accept that the cleansing of the sanctuary refers to God's people, and not some two-apartment building in heaven, then the concept will have much greater meaning today.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

There are various approaches to the sanctuary doctrine, some more or less informational than others. As with the proverbial "elephant in the room" the sanctuary "elephant" can be described in ways that, even though different, may carry truth.

I am putting my thoughts in a new thread so as not to distract from the discussion by Mrasell, which thread is following a somewhat different line of thought.

Here's what I can see from my angle here in the "room." My view is taken, not from various authors (including EGW), but from my own personal study of the Bible. I expect to be right in some ways and wrong in others, so insights and/or corrections, are welcome. Most of what follows is pretty elementary, but leads up to a somewhat different perspective, so bear with me.

As early as Genesis 4, there is evidence of provision for our salvation, as reflected in the sacrificial lamb. Cain sacrifices fruit. Abel offers a lamb. God accepts the lamb and rejects the labor of Cain's hands.

And what is the meaning of the lamb?

The relevance of the lamb mentioned in Genesis, is explained more clearly in the visual, hands-on object lesson of the earthly sanctuary which was established at the time Israel was brought out of Egypt. Salvation, and how it will play out in earth's history and timeline, was explained via the animal sacrifices and the symbolic sanctuary furniture and apartments. Jesus' sacrifice, portrayed most often by a lamb, is further explained in the sanctuary furniture and services.

What do the sanctuary services and its layout portray?

The sanctuary and its ceremonial laws were given as a shadow (or copy) of God's plan of salvation. Hebrews 8 and 9. These shadows point not only to how God saves us, but to when, in the stream of time, the plan to save us is
fulfilled. In 31 AD, the certainty and validity of salvation is confirmed, and the earthly sanctuary symbolism takes us on through to the final completion of the plan at the end of time and at the beginning of eternity. Based on Hebrews, it can be concluded that the sanctuary system is relevant not only to the Jewish nation, but to all time and to all humanity. The earthly sanctuary was an object lesson in forgiveness and overcoming....to be confirmed forever by the death and resurrection of the passover lamb (Jesus) in 31 AD.

What is the relevance to us of the sanctuary today?

Each part of the earthly sanctuary's structure and services represented a spiritual reality. Up until the death of Jesus, the earthly sanctuary was an object lesson of salvation, and in 31 AD, the object lesson became reality at the time of Jesus' death.

The lamb: The sacrificial lamb (pointing to 31 AD) reminded the Israelites that there was a way provided to escape the condemnation that comes with lawbreaking. Faith in the antitypical lamb (Jesus) provided the same forgiveness to humans living post-31AD as humans living pre-31AD.

The outer court: This is where the sacrificial lamb was slain, and this outer court represented the unconverted world.

The first apartment: The symbolic furniture found behind the first curtain/veil (Exodus 26:36) represented the tools that would help converts to grow as Christians, once they had accepted the forgiveness provided by the sacrificial lamb that was slain in the outer court . In the antitype, in real time, this work of growth was confirmed and commenced through mediation in heaven in 31 AD, and covered all who believed, pre and post 31 AD. (Hebrews 11:39, 40)

The second apartment: The symbols found behind the second curtain/veil (Exodus 26:31) represented a time of complete at-one-ment with God, preparing a people for God's presence. In real time, this period commenced at the end of the 2300-day prophecy, in 1844, and takes us on through to the Second Coming--God's presence. We are now living in what was once the symbolic "day of atonement" and now is a period of time in which we are to be putting away all sins, confessing and forsaking them in a final cleansing of the antitypical sanctuary.

What is the antitypical sanctuary?

The sanctuary in heaven is not necessarily a physical building. Rather, the term reflects a process of work being done for the church on earth. So, in fact, the "heavenly sanctuary" is actually a description of the church on earth (1 Corinthians 6:15 and 19), and this sanctuary (us) is merely reflected in heaven as seen in the books of life where the names of God's followers are written (Daniel 7:10 and Revelation 20:12).

So, to sum up this very sketchy proffer:

The way into God's presence has been opened to all at the death of Jesus. "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Heb. 4:16. Also, see John 16:23-28. We can now, by faith, enter the holy places in heaven, for wherever God's physical presence is, is a holy place.

But there is another aspect to be considered. It is the time sequence of Jesus' mediatorial work, as symbolized in the earthly sanctuary. The daily part of the symbolic sanctuary on earth points to the type and time of the work in heaven for all humanity, that began in 31 AD. The day of atonement in the symbolic sanctuary on earth points to the time at the end of the 2300-day prophecy, when the sanctuary (us here on earth) will be cleansed in readiness for the second coming. The church on earth, being cleansed, fullfils the prophecy that "then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

The sanctuary, then, is not some physical building in heaven that needs cleansing. It is we, the people, the church here on earth, of which there is a record in heaven of the people being judged as forgiven and cleansed finally, once and for all. As it says in Scripture: He that is righteous, let him be righteous still, and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Revelation 22:11.

I submit that one reason why the sanctuary doctrine seems to be a dead doctrine and irrelevant to our times, is because we don't connect the sanctuary to the church. We place it afar off in the heavens, in some heavenly building that makes us think, hey, what's that all about, anyway. What does that have to do with us? We think that it doesn't make sense that some place in heaven would need cleansing. So we put it aside as useless and move on.

But if we accept that the cleansing of the sanctuary refers to God's people, and not some two-apartment building in heaven, then the concept will have much greater meaning today.

Did God cleanse His own before 1844?

BFA

 

[Joe67]

Judgment is the work of the Sanctuary in heaven and earth.

Matt 6:9-10
Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. KJV

Eccl 3:16-20
16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.

17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. KJV

Rev 4:6
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. KJV

Joe

 

[Laodicean]

Did God cleanse His own before 1844?

BFA

yes, but this cleansing is a different kind of cleansing, apparently. Or else why would it be phrased "and then shall the sanctuary be cleansed"? If "then," then not before. Forgiveness of sin is one aspect. Cleansing, another. 2300 years after 457 BC, we reach the end time, the cleansing time.

Of course, one interpretation is to divorce the 2300 days from the 70 weeks of days, making the 70 weeks of days symbolic and the 2300 days literal. This is poor exegesis, in my opinion. There is no reason to make one part of a prophecy figurative (day for a year) and another part literal.

And my personal opinion, from my corner of the room, is that Antiochus Epiphanes does not fit this time prophecy, because, in separating the two timelines, there is no starting point from which to plot the 2300 days. And if you reduce the 2300 days to a literal 6 years, 3 months and 18 days, that time span does not fit either a beginning or an ending event, depending on which starting point is used, either counting backward from some chosen event, or counting forward from some unstated event.

Instead, from what I can see, the context of the vision points more justifiably to a figurative interpretation, with both the 2300 days of years and the 70 weeks of years beginning at the same starting point, the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem in 457 BC.

Daniel's concern was that the prophecy of 70 years of captivity was almost up, and he was looking for the release of his people to return to Jerusalem. The visions came in answer to his prayer in which he petitioned for the fulfilment of that prophecy. But the visions addressed not only the imminent release from captivity, but concerned a sweep of time that included the coming of the Messiah, and the years beyond.

Daniel misunderstood the vision, and fainted at the prospect that the 70 years of captiviy could go on for another 2300 years. "And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it." Daniel 8:27 His fear was that the 70 years of captivity were now going to stretch on for another 2300 years. It was more than he could bear, and he fell sick.

In the subsequent vision, in answer to his prayer for understanding, he was told that the captivity was indeed going to end shortly, but there was more. Much more. How good is God, that "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but He revealeth His secret unto His servants the prophets"! Amos 3:7

So what did the 2300 days of years really mean? What was this sanctuary that would have its cleansing occur 2300 years later? Go back to the type. The concept of a cleansed sanctuary is found in the sanctuary system set up for the Israelites when they were brought out of Egypt.

Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the Lord.

This kind of cleansing must have a different meaning than the cleansing of "washing of regeneration" that comes with forgiveness of sins. In the context of the sanctuary symbolism, "cleansing" here must mean something more than just forgiveness of sin. What is this meaning?

I submit, from my study of the sanctuary symbolism, that the sanctuary represents Jesus in every aspect of its furniture and layout. And because Jesus dwells in His followers -- "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me." John 15:4 -- it means that God's people on earth are also the sanctuary. For where Jesus is, is the sanctuary, and if Jesus abides in us, then the sanctuary is in us.

So what lesson can be drawn from the cleansing of the typical sanctuary on the day of atonement? Based on the service carried out on that day, it is reasonable to conlude that, in the antitype, Jesus will not always bear our sins. There will come a time when the guilt of our sins will be transferred to Satan, and he will be banished forever, taking responsibility for the sins of the saints. We are saved, forgiven and cleansed, through Jesus, and finally, satan is eternally lost, destroyed, blamed for the sin that he started in the first place.

It is during this cleansing time, when Jesus prepares to cease His mediatorial work, that in these last days of this world's history, we should be doing what the Israelites did in type on their yearly days of atonement: afflict our souls, with our eyes fixed on Jesus, trusting that His disposition of forgiven sins will leave us cleansed, as He is cleansed, in the sense that He no longer bears our sins. "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." Hebrews 9:28.

Okay, so what should we be doing in this time just before Jesus returns? We are to rest in Jesus, trusting that He is our sanctuary, dwelling in us and making us overcomers through His power, not ours. We will not be working to save ourselves, just as the Israelites were not to work on their yearly day of atonement: Leviticus 16:29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:

No work! Rest, Sabbath rest, from our own works, all the while trusting that Jesus is well able to perform the work in us, if we would but take our eyes off ourselves and look totally to Him.

How easy is that!

 

[Byfaithalone1]

yes, but this cleansing is a different kind of cleansing, apparently. Or else why would it be phrased "and then shall the sanctuary be cleansed"? If "then," then not before.

Perhaps it is your definition of "sanctuary" that has created this apparent disconnect.

BFA

 

[Laodicean]

Perhaps it is your definition of "sanctuary" that has created this apparent disconnect.

BFA

Of course it is a disconnect, BFA. We are talking about two different things here, forgiveness of sins and cleansing of the sanctuary. We are focusing on what the sanctuary means and what its cleansing means, not about forgiveness of sins, per se. You seem to think that they both mean the same thing. And I'm suggesting that the "then" in "then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" means that at a certain point in time, something will occur that has not been happening all along.

What does the sanctuary symbolism tell us about salvation, of which forgiveness of sin is a part?

Two aspects:

1. The furniture is symbolic of Jesus.

2. The apartments are symbolic of time.

Now, I know that this might sound as if I'm trying to undermine the traditional position that there is a physical sanctuary in heaven, but not so. I'm actually seeing it as more real. How so? The type is in symbols. The antitype is the reality. There is, indeed, a sanctuary concept in heavenly places. Just, imo, not necessarily a physical building. Here are a few of the main items of the symbols of the earthly sanctuary.

The veil:

Exodus 26:33, "And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy [place] and the most holy."

Hebrews 10:19, 20, "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh...."

If the veil is the flesh of Jesus, surely there is no such things as the flesh of Jesus hanging between two physical apartments in a building in heaven. Jesus is the veil.

The lamb:

Revelation 5:6, "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."

In the sanctuary services, the lamb that was slain is understood to be a symbol of the death of the coming Messiah. Again, in heaven, there is no physical lamb lying around slain, nor is Jesus, the antitype of the lamb, slain over and over again in a heavenly building called a sanctuary. So, so far, no physical veil, no physical lamb.

The candlestick:

Exodus 25:31, "And thou shalt make a candlestick [of] pure gold: [of] beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft, and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same."
Revelation 1:13, "And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man..."
Revelation 1:20, "...and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

The "seven churches" are not in heaven, but here on earth, but Jesus' Spirit dwells among His churches. The seven golden candlesticks of the sanctuary type do not exist physically in heaven. The concept does.

The table of shewbread:

Exodus 25:30, "And thou shalt set upon the table shewbread before me alway."
John 6:35, "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."

Once again, the type is the table of shewbread pointing to the antitype, Jesus, the Bread of Life," John 6:48, "I am that bread of life."

The altar of incense:

Exodus 30:1, "And thou shalt make an altar to burn incense upon: [of] [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim wood shalt thou make it."
Revelation 8:3 "And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne."

Who is our intercessor? Jesus. Thus the "angel" that offers incense with the prayers of the saints must also be Jesus. If there is no physical veil, no physical candlesticks, no physical shewbread, then it is reasonable to assume that there is no physical altar before which Jesus stands but, rather, in reality, Jesus is at the right hand of God, interceding for His people here on earth, the type of an altar of incense reflecting the antitype of Jesus' mediatorial work for us.

The ark of the covenant:

Exodus 25:16, "Then put in the ark the Testimony, which I will give you."
Exodus 26:33, "And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy [place] and the most holy."
Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

So the ark of the Testimony is the ark of the 10 commandments. Where do we find these 10 commandments in heaven? Not in a box, but in the living reality, Jesus.

Matthew 5:17, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
Romans 7:12, "Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."

There are too many texts to mention here that say that God Himself is holy, just, and good. If the law is holy, just, and good, and God Himself is holy, just, and good, then it is reasonable to phrase the connection thus: "The law is a transcript of God's character."

When we come to Jesus, we find the law there. We find that the law has been perfectly kept by Him. The ark of the testimony of the earthly sanctuary points to the law that has been fulfilled and established in Jesus. No need for a physical box to contain the law when the reality in heaven is revealed to be in Jesus.

The mercy seat:

Exodus 25:17, "And thou shalt make a mercy seat [of] pure gold."
Exodus 25:21, "And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee."
Exodus 34:6, "And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth."

The law demands death. The mercy seat points to God's mercy in saving us from death. Jesus is the evidence of this mercy.

The cherubims:

Exodus 25:18, "And thou shalt make two cherubims [of] gold, [of] beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat."
Exodus 25:19, "And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: [even] of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
Exodus 25:20, "And the cherubims shall stretch forth [their] wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces [shall look] one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be."
Psalms 99:1, "The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth [between] the cherubims; let the earth be moved."

The angels looking over the ark of the testimony in the earthly sanctuary obviously reflect the reality of the angels in heaven looking on with interest on God's activity in connection tothe law itself. It is reasonable to conclude that there are no two angels physically hovering over a literal box in heaven that contains the law of the testimony. No need for a box when Jesus Himself is there, representing what the ark of the testimony symbolized. Rather, the cherubims of the earthly sanctuary point to the reality of the interest of all angels in heaven, in God and His character, the law.

So all of that is just to say that the earthly sanctuary symbols pointed to Jesus and His work for us. In a way, it can be said that the sanctuary is in heaven, because Jesus is indeed our sanctuary, and He is in heaven.
But what about the time element of the earthly sanctuary, the daily services and the yearly service? This aspect, too, has meaning for the antitype. The daily services point to the reality of that time in human history
leading up to the "time of the end." The day of atonement of the earthly sanctuary points to the reality of the "time of the end," that period of time just before Jesus returns to earth. During these last days is when "then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" is occurring.

Now, from one corner of the "room" the "elephant" can be described as the Investigative Judgment." And that would be one way to describe it. In addition, though, from my corner of the room, the view I'm getting of the "elephant" is that we are living in a time when decisions are being made for or against God, and time is being given for those decisions to solidify.

Some might say, "What's taking so long?" I would hazard a guess that it has to do with 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

I imagine there could be other reasons why the "delay." But that is one Biblical reason for sure. In any event, regardless of how long these "last days" take, there is coming a time when Jesus will no longer bear our sins. At that time, we will indeed have to stand before God without a mediator, because Jesus will have stepped out of His role as intercessor in the heavenly state of things, to return to earth. But what does it mean to stand before God without a mediator? Are we alone? Never.

Jesus promised, Hebrews 13:5, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Matthew 28:20, "...and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."

When we stand before God without a mediator, we stand before God WITH JESUS at our side -- or within us, rather. True, Jesus will no longer be interceding for sins, but if we stay with Him, He will be our cover, our Righteousness, and this is the righteousness that God sees when we stand before Him, the righteousness of Christ..."That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Ephesians 5:27.

So, halleujah, it is Jesus all the way, from the beginning to the end. We have nothing to fear as long as we accept Jesus into our minds and hearts by faith.

Now tell me that that is not a wonderfully progressive thought!

 

[StormyOne]

nope, to me it is not a progressive thought at all..... it is a tenuous thought and a tenuous concept.... however you've embraced it, so I am happy that you have found it meaningful....

 

[bugkiller]

There are various approaches to the sanctuary doctrine, some more or less informational than others. As with the proverbial "elephant in the room" the sanctuary "elephant" can be described in ways that, even though different, may carry truth.

I am putting my thoughts in a new thread so as not to distract from the discussion by Mrasell, which thread is following a somewhat different line of thought.

Here's what I can see from my angle here in the "room." My view is taken, not from various authors (including EGW), but from my own personal study of the Bible. I expect to be right in some ways and wrong in others, so insights and/or corrections, are welcome. Most of what follows is pretty elementary, but leads up to a somewhat different perspective, so bear with me.

As early as Genesis 4, there is evidence of provision for our salvation, as reflected in the sacrificial lamb. Cain sacrifices fruit. Abel offers a lamb. God accepts the lamb and rejects the labor of Cain's hands.

And what is the meaning of the lamb?

The relevance of the lamb mentioned in Genesis, is explained more clearly in the visual, hands-on object lesson of the earthly sanctuary which was established at the time Israel was brought out of Egypt. Salvation, and how it will play out in earth's history and timeline, was explained via the animal sacrifices and the symbolic sanctuary furniture and apartments. Jesus' sacrifice, portrayed most often by a lamb, is further explained in the sanctuary furniture and services.

What do the sanctuary services and its layout portray?

The sanctuary and its ceremonial laws were given as a shadow (or copy) of God's plan of salvation. Hebrews 8 and 9. These shadows point not only to how God saves us, but to when, in the stream of time, the plan to save us is
fulfilled. In 31 AD, the certainty and validity of salvation is confirmed, and the earthly sanctuary symbolism takes us on through to the final completion of the plan at the end of time and at the beginning of eternity. Based on Hebrews, it can be concluded that the sanctuary system is relevant not only to the Jewish nation, but to all time and to all humanity. The earthly sanctuary was an object lesson in forgiveness and overcoming....to be confirmed forever by the death and resurrection of the passover lamb (Jesus) in 31 AD.

What is the relevance to us of the sanctuary today?

Each part of the earthly sanctuary's structure and services represented a spiritual reality. Up until the death of Jesus, the earthly sanctuary was an object lesson of salvation, and in 31 AD, the object lesson became reality at the time of Jesus' death.

The lamb: The sacrificial lamb (pointing to 31 AD) reminded the Israelites that there was a way provided to escape the condemnation that comes with lawbreaking. Faith in the antitypical lamb (Jesus) provided the same forgiveness to humans living post-31AD as humans living pre-31AD.

The outer court: This is where the sacrificial lamb was slain, and this outer court represented the unconverted world.

The first apartment: The symbolic furniture found behind the first curtain/veil (Exodus 26:36) represented the tools that would help converts to grow as Christians, once they had accepted the forgiveness provided by the sacrificial lamb that was slain in the outer court . In the antitype, in real time, this work of growth was confirmed and commenced through mediation in heaven in 31 AD, and covered all who believed, pre and post 31 AD. (Hebrews 11:39, 40)

The second apartment: The symbols found behind the second curtain/veil (Exodus 26:31) represented a time of complete at-one-ment with God, preparing a people for God's presence. In real time, this period commenced at the end of the 2300-day prophecy, in 1844, and takes us on through to the Second Coming--God's presence. We are now living in what was once the symbolic "day of atonement" and now is a period of time in which we are to be putting away all sins, confessing and forsaking them in a final cleansing of the antitypical sanctuary.

What is the antitypical sanctuary?

The sanctuary in heaven is not necessarily a physical building. Rather, the term reflects a process of work being done for the church on earth. So, in fact, the "heavenly sanctuary" is actually a description of the church on earth (1 Corinthians 6:15 and 19), and this sanctuary (us) is merely reflected in heaven as seen in the books of life where the names of God's followers are written (Daniel 7:10 and Revelation 20:12).

So, to sum up this very sketchy proffer:

The way into God's presence has been opened to all at the death of Jesus. "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Heb. 4:16. Also, see John 16:23-28. We can now, by faith, enter the holy places in heaven, for wherever God's physical presence is, is a holy place.

But there is another aspect to be considered. It is the time sequence of Jesus' mediatorial work, as symbolized in the earthly sanctuary. The daily part of the symbolic sanctuary on earth points to the type and time of the work in heaven for all humanity, that began in 31 AD. The day of atonement in the symbolic sanctuary on earth points to the time at the end of the 2300-day prophecy, when the sanctuary (us here on earth) will be cleansed in readiness for the second coming. The church on earth, being cleansed, fullfils the prophecy that "then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

The sanctuary, then, is not some physical building in heaven that needs cleansing. It is we, the people, the church here on earth, of which there is a record in heaven of the people being judged as forgiven and cleansed finally, once and for all. As it says in Scripture: He that is righteous, let him be righteous still, and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Revelation 22:11.

I submit that one reason why the sanctuary doctrine seems to be a dead doctrine and irrelevant to our times, is because we don't connect the sanctuary to the church. We place it afar off in the heavens, in some heavenly building that makes us think, hey, what's that all about, anyway. What does that have to do with us? We think that it doesn't make sense that some place in heaven would need cleansing. So we put it aside as useless and move on.

But if we accept that the cleansing of the sanctuary refers to God's people, and not some two-apartment building in heaven, then the concept will have much greater meaning today.

Me thinks you should take a look at Gen 3.

bugkiller

 

[Laodicean]

Me thinks you should take a look at Gen 3.

bugkiller

okay, I did. What should I pay particular attention to, Bugkiller?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

We have nothing to fear as long as we accept Jesus into our minds and hearts by faith.

Does this concept support the SDA "sanctuary message" or does it refute it?

BFA

 

[Laodicean]

Does this concept support the SDA "sanctuary message" or does it refute it?

BFA

It supports it.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

It supports it.

Doesn't the "sanctuary message" provide much to fear, even for those who have faith? After all, doesn't it teach that believers must reach a point where they can stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator and without sin -- prior to Christ's second coming?

BFA

 

[Laodicean]

Doesn't the "sanctuary message" provide much to fear, even for those who have faith?

Not at all, BFA. The very nature of the word should be comforting -- a place of refuge, of protection, a safe place, especially for people being persecuted. Jesus is our sanctuary. Satan, our greatest persecutor. Every aspect of the earthly sanctuary is a description of Jesus, our Sanctuary. So any message having to do with the sanctuary should be a message that provides comfort, not fear.

After all, doesn't it teach that believers must reach a point where they can stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator and without sin -- prior to Christ's second coming?

BFA

Yes, according to the Bible, there will come a time when Jesus will no longer bear our sins. For He is to return, not as mediator, but as conqueror. Hebrews 9:28, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

But we do not stand alone in the sight of a holy God. We stand before Him safe within our Sanctuary -- Jesus. "...for He hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5 and, "lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Matthew 28:20. God sees the righteousness of our Sanctuary, and that is sufficient.

Really, there is so much to be learned from the earthly sanctuary system. I wish we would study it more.....

 

[Restin]

Yes, according to the Bible, there will come a time when Jesus will no longer bear our sins. For He is to return, not as mediator, but as conqueror. Hebrews 9:28, "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

But we do not stand alone in the sight of a holy God. We stand before Him safe within our Sanctuary -- Jesus. "...for He hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5 and, "lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Matthew 28:20. God sees the righteousness of our Sanctuary, and that is sufficient.

Really, there is so much to be learned from the earthly sanctuary system. I wish we would study it more.....

Laodicean....though Jesus shall appear the second time without sin unto salvation He continues to be a 'mediator', though this mediatorial aspect does change from 'old' to 'new' >>> to a 'new and better covenant'!

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. KJV

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. KJV

 

[Laodicean]

Laodicean....though Jesus shall appear the second time without sin unto salvation He continues to be a 'mediator', though this mediatorial aspect does change from 'old' to 'new' >>> to a 'new and better covenant'!

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. KJV

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. KJV

Restin, once sin is cleansed from the universe, and the saved from earth begin to live life as it was meant to be lived, will they still need a mediator? Mediation is required for reconciliation between God and sinful man. Once reconciled (as in life after the second advent) Jesus' role as mediator would no longer be needed, would it? I'm thinking that the texts you quote apply to mediation before the end of time. What are your reasons for believing that mediation extends beyond the second advent?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Not at all, BFA. The very nature of the word should be comforting -- a place of refuge, of protection, a safe place, especially for people being persecuted. Jesus is our sanctuary. Satan, our greatest persecutor. Every aspect of the earthly sanctuary is a description of Jesus, our Sanctuary. So any message having to do with the sanctuary should be a message that provides comfort, not fear.

Imbedded in "the sanctuary message" is a doctrine relating to the investigative judgment of believers. I find no reason to conclude that believers come into judgment or that this is a particularly comforting doctrine.

Yes, according to the Bible, there will come a time when Jesus will no longer bear our sins.

You've offered Hebrews 9 as confirmation of this statement, but it does not teach this. Rather it teaches that Christ's atonement was completed once for all. That atonement is already complete. His atonement does not fall into "there will come a time." With that said, He promised that He would never cease to intercede for us.

In contrast, "the sanctuary message" teaches that Christ's atonement was not completed once for all and that Christ would cease to intercede for us. "The sanctuary message" teaches that Christ entered the second phase of His act of atonement in 1844. Isn't the "sanctuary message" in direct conflict with the passage you cited?

But we do not stand alone in the sight of a holy God. We stand before Him safe within our Sanctuary -- Jesus. "...for He hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5 and, "lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Matthew 28:20. God sees the righteousness of our Sanctuary, and that is sufficient.

Although I agree with you, "the sanctuary message" teaches that Christ will cease to intercede for me after probation closes. Are we in agreement that this aspect of "the sanctuary message" is in error?

once sin is cleansed from the universe, and the saved from earth begin to live life as it was meant to be lived, will they still need a mediator? Mediation is required for reconciliation between God and sinful man. Once reconciled (as in life after the second advent) Jesus' role as mediator would no longer be needed, would it? I'm thinking that the texts you quote apply to mediation before the end of time. What are your reasons for believing that mediation extends beyond the second advent?

When Jesus Christ promised that He would never cease to intercede for me, was He mistaken? "The sanctuary message" clearly indicates that Jesus Christ will cease to serve as my mediator following the close of probation. And yet Jesus Christ clearly promised that He would not cease to intercede. Someone must be mistaken here because both ideas cannot simultaneously be true.

Let's imagine for a moment that Christ's intercession did end. What would happen to me if I sinned and Christ did not intercede? Is it your position that believers will reach a state of complete sinlessness after the close of probation and prior to Christ's second coming?

Really, there is so much to be learned from the earthly sanctuary system. I wish we would study it more.....

No time like the present. I look forward to your answers to my questions.

BFA

 

[Restin]

Restin, once sin is cleansed from the universe, and the saved from earth begin to live life as it was meant to be lived, will they still need a mediator? Mediation is required for reconciliation between God and sinful man. Once reconciled (as in life after the second advent) Jesus' role as mediator would no longer be needed, would it? I'm thinking that the texts you quote apply to mediation before the end of time. What are your reasons for believing that mediation extends beyond the second advent?

To clarify, the 'old covenant' was given through and by Moses in types and symbols of the sanctuary and its services. Jesus fulfilled the 'Old' covenant and is the reality of the 'NEW' Covenant. Yes, 'mediation' was required for reconciliation between God and sinful man, but, according to Hebrews, that is not the end of the 'mediation' of Christ. Hebrews points to a need for the 'mediation' of Christ, when sin does not exist...rather 'sin is not imputed when there is no law' as in Ro 5:13. (Hebrews completes this thought)

Yes Laodicean,...these text in Hebrews, quoted in my previous post, I believe to be the position of Jesus...in the "NEW COVENANT" relationship between Christ and his church, the 'NEW Jerusalem'. Jesus Christ is MY RIGHTEOUSNESS for eternity and thereby stands between myself and God...even in a life apart from and without any known sin.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry,
by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant,
which was established upon better promises. KJV

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the
city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the
blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. KJV

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Not at all, BFA. The very nature of the word should be comforting -- a place of refuge, of protection, a safe place, especially for people being persecuted. Jesus is our sanctuary. Satan, our greatest persecutor. Every aspect of the earthly sanctuary is a description of Jesus, our Sanctuary. So any message having to do with the sanctuary should be a message that provides comfort, not fear.
​

Imbedded in "the sanctuary message" is a doctrine relating to the investigative judgment of believers. I find no reason to conclude that believers come into judgment or that this is a particularly comforting doctrine.

"Investigative judgment" is one way to describe it. Another description would be "Decisions." Joel 3:14 "Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision."

What is our final decision for or against God? Will we remain unshakeable in that decision? The sanctuary doctrine can be comforting depending on our relationship with Jesus. Are we friends of Jesus? Then we are safe in the sanctuary, and judgment is FOR us, and on our behalf.

The time just before Jesus returns is unique in human history. Where, in the past, one's fate was sealed at death, now we are approaching a time when our fate will be sealed while we are still living. Hence the difference between first-apartment symbolism and second-apartment symbolism. We are at a point where, once and for all, the judgment is made "he that is righteous, let him be righteous still, and he that is filthy let him be filthy still."

BFA, you say that you find no reason to conclude that believers come into judgment. Here are a few texts:

Matthew 25:32, 33 -- ""And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."

1 Peter 4:17 -- "For the time [comes] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if first at us, what shall [be] the end of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

2 Corinthians 5:10 -- "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad."

1 Timothy 5:24 -- "Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some [men] they follow after."

Revelation 14:7 -- "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

Daniel 7:10 -- "A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened."

Daniel 7:22 -- "Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom."

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Yes, according to the Bible, there will come a time when Jesus will no longer bear our sins.
​

You've offered Hebrews 9 as confirmation of this statement, but it does not teach this. Rather it teaches that Christ's atonement was completed once for all. That atonement is already complete. His atonement does not fall into "there will come a time." With that said, He promised that He would never cease to intercede for us.

Does the Bible teach us that Jesus will continue to bear our sins throughout eternity? I don't think so. Whether he ceases to bear our sins just before He returns, or after He returns, the fact remains that there comes a time when we will no longer stand before a holy God with a mediator. Why? Because we have been declared "righteous still." No need for mediation if we are already declared righteous.

There is no text that says that Jesus will never cease to intercede for us. He has said He will never leave us nor forsake us. But "not leaving us" does not translate into "continue to intercede forever." Intercession is for a time, during which we need a mediator and intercessor for our sins. But in heaven, there will be no sin or sinners, so no need for an intercessor.

I agree with you that atonement for sins has been completed at the cross. But that is not what the symbolic Day of Atonement is about. The Day of Atonement is about something else. It is about the final eradication of sin. There comes a time when the final decision will be made as to who will be saved or lost, and this decision is made while people are still living.

In contrast, "the sanctuary message" teaches that Christ's atonement was not completed once for all

Actually, this is incorrect. This not what the sanctuary message is about. It is a given that Christ's atonement for sins is complete and perfect. But remember, the sanctuary message is not about the completeness or incompleteness of Christ's sacrifice. It is about something else altogether.

and that Christ would cease to intercede for us.

this is true. There is a reason why Christ ceases to intercede. It is because He is ready to return and take His children home.

"The sanctuary message" teaches that Christ entered the second phase of His act of atonement in 1844. Isn't the "sanctuary message" in direct conflict with the passage you cited?

The sanctuary doctrine teaches that just before Jesus is ready to return to this earth, there is a day-of-atonement stir of activity, wherein He prepares to remove from Himself our sins that He has been bearing for so long, and He places them where they truly belong, on the scapegoat that symbolizes satan. Just because this activity is called "the day of atonement" does not mean that we are saying that Jesus' death was not a complete atonement. That sacrifice was and is always complete and its benefit is available at every moment in the timeline of human history, including at the end of time.

Again, this perfect atonement at the cross, made for all mankind, is not what the sanctuary doctrine is talking about when it talks about the Day of Atonement. The Day of Atonement in the sanctuary scenario refers to something else -- the final preparation of a people to meet their God, without a mediator. How do you prepare? Simply by hiding in Jesus. The difference between now and any other time in history is that those alive at the end of time will meet God in Person, without first dying. So, Jesus does finally cease mediation, but He stays with us and covers us with His righteousness.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

But we do not stand alone in the sight of a holy God. We stand before Him safe within our Sanctuary -- Jesus. "...for He hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5 and, "lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Matthew 28:20. God sees the righteousness of our Sanctuary, and that is sufficient.
​

Although I agree with you, "the sanctuary message" teaches that Christ will cease to intercede for me after probation closes. Are we in agreement that this aspect of "the sanctuary message" is in error?

No, I do not agree that this aspect of the sanctuary message is in error. The second-apartment activity depicted in the earthly sanctuary points to an ending of Jesus' role of bearing our sins. He is ready to return and His intercession is about to cease. The pattern tells us that we need to afflict our souls and make sure that we remain IN HIM. For if an individual is indifferent or unconcerned during this time, he will be cut off from the body. He will be lost. This is not a corporate matter. Each individual is in the valley of decision for himself, and if he fails to care about his relationship with Jesus, that person alone will be cut off. Not the entire body of believers (which is what "corporate" is about) but individuals will be cut off.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

once sin is cleansed from the universe, and the saved from earth begin to live life as it was meant to be lived, will they still need a mediator? Mediation is required for reconciliation between God and sinful man. Once reconciled (as in life after the second advent) Jesus' role as mediator would no longer be needed, would it? I'm thinking that the texts you quote apply to mediation before the end of time. What are your reasons for believing that mediation extends beyond the second advent?
​

"When Jesus Christ promised that He would never cease to intercede for me, was He mistaken?

where does He say, "I will never cease to intercede for you"? He says, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." The word "intercede" is not in there.

" "The sanctuary message" clearly indicates that Jesus Christ will cease to serve as my mediator following the close of probation. And yet Jesus Christ clearly promised that He would not cease to intercede. Someone must be mistaken here because both ideas cannot simultaneously be true.

you need to show where it says that Jesus has promised that He would not cease to intercede. Maybe you are interpreting "I will never leave you" to mean "I will never cease to intercede"? I suppose you could do that, but that is changing the words, which I don't know if you really want to do that.

Let's imagine for a moment that Christ's intercession did end. What would happen to me if I sinned and Christ did not intercede?

At the point when Christ's intercession ends, if I am not walking with Him, then, of course, I will remain in a sinful state and will sin. And since His intercession has ended (because He is on His way to get His children) I will have no intercessor. I will be lost. This I do not want to happen, so now is the time to afflict my soul and make sure that I am abiding in Jesus.

Is it your position that believers will reach a state of complete sinlessness after the close of probation and prior to Christ's second coming?

As long as Christ covers us with His righteousness, then, yes, in the sight of God, we are considered to be completely sinless. Stick with Jesus, and you are safe.

As to our condition outside of Christ's covering? All our own righteousness is as filthy rags. So no, we will never, on our own, reach a state of complete sinlessness before the close of time. But if, at the close of time, we are found walking with Jesus, we will be viewed as being without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. When EGW describes the last-day believer in those words, it is because that is what she saw -- a people covered by Christ's perfect righteousness.

Unfortunately, we have taken her description of how we appear when covered by Christ's righteousness, and concluded that we must achieve this perfection through our own efforts.

 

[Laodicean]

To clarify, the 'old covenant' was given through and by Moses in types and symbols of the sanctuary and its services. Jesus fulfilled the 'Old' covenant and is the reality of the 'NEW' Covenant. Yes, 'mediation' was required for reconciliation between God and sinful man, but, according to Hebrews, that is not the end of the 'mediation' of Christ. Hebrews points to a need for the 'mediation' of Christ, when sin does not exist...rather 'sin is not imputed when there is no law' as in Ro 5:13. (Hebrews completes this thought)

Restin, sin not being imputed does not mean that sin does not exist. There's a difference. The cessation of mediation occurs when there is no more sin. The "there is no law" in Romans refers to no knowledge of the law, not that there is no law. Both moral and physical law has always existed in the universe.

Yes Laodicean,...these text in Hebrews, quoted in my previous post, I believe to be the position of Jesus...in the "NEW COVENANT" relationship between Christ and his church, the 'NEW Jerusalem'. Jesus Christ is MY RIGHTEOUSNESS for eternity and thereby stands between myself and God...even in a life apart from and without any known sin.

I agree with you that Jesus' righteousnes will be ours throughout eternity. That righteousness becomes eternally ours at the point where it is declared, "he that is righteous, let him be righteous still." Christ's righteousness will be ours forever after that pronouncement.

 

[Restin]

Restin, sin not being imputed does not mean that sin does not exist.....

The "there is no law" in Romans refers to no knowledge of the law, not that there is no law. Both moral and physical law has always existed in the universe.

Basically in agreement.

Laodicean...do you still say 'mediator' in Hebrews 12:24 is not talking about the next life...?

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the
city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the
blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. KJV