Yet another selfless act

[ImaginaryDay]

Pope treats homeless to new sleeping bags

 

[parsley]

Nice gesture; it should be done more often, by cities and churches and sleeping bag stores.

The Vatican has annual revenue of $377 million, and various types of holdings in the billions. They bought sleeping bags for 300 people, and called the newspapers.

I wouldn't call it sacrificial. But it is certainly a positive example for the world, to remind them of people in need and the small things we can do for each other. Catholicism has a rich, extensive history of helping the poor around the world.

Fortune Magazine on Francis:
"He began replacing the old guard of cardinals and bishops with lay experts who are now largely setting strategy, heading regulatory oversight, and running day-to-day operations. Indeed, Francis has brought in some of the biggest brand names in the world of business....He despises waste and inefficiency, and he thinks the Vatican can run better with fewer employees."

It appears that as an individual, he is given a discretionary spending budget.

 

[South Bound]

Pope treats homeless to new sleeping bags

With all of that room in his palace, you'd think he would have invited them to come stay with him.

Maybe he could sell off a few million in artwork to set them up in a business of their own so they could become self sufficient.

 

[parsley]

Maybe he could sell off a few million in artwork to set them up in a business of their own so they could become self sufficient.

He could hire one as a gallery store manager or auctioneer, and they'd work off their annual salary in a day. (As long as they don't accidentally sell a ceiling.)

 

[South Bound]

He could hire one as a gallery store manager or auctioneer, and they'd work off their annual salary in a day. (As long as they don't accidentally sell a ceiling.)

There you go. Rather than giving them a sleeping bag and putting them out on the street, why not hire them to wash dishes or scrub floors in the pope's palace in exchange for a place to stay and a few dollars? Why not do something to actually help them, rather than just something to make their poverty more comfortable?

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I don't know.. unless you work at a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen. I don't think anybody has the right to criticize the pope for what he has done. What he has done is a lot more than what most people do. Have you personally emptied your coffers to provide for the poor? I haven't.

 

[South Bound]

I don't know.. unless you work at a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen. I don't think anybody has the right to criticize the pope for what he has done.

Your logical fallacy aside, I do spend quite a bit of time working with various charities.

Have you personally emptied your coffers to provide for the poor? I haven't.

Has he?

A lot of people in such dire straits are very damaged. Use your imagination. He has a specific job to do, with any number of problems to sort out. How could he function as pope, if he tried to do Mother Theresa's work as well.

So, he can pass out sleeping bags, but he can't offer somebody a job?

In fact, atheists, such as the late C Hitchens vilified her and her nuns for not acting as a social workers, while she determined quite sensibly that the best thing they could do was to let those dying people know that they were loved. If they ended up dying of starvation in the street, what reason is there to believe that they would not do so immediately again. Seeing things in the light of eternity is always wise, but easier when people are in such a dire state in such a society.

"Mother" Theresa was notorious for not presenting the Gospel to the lost. What good is it to go to Hell warm and well fed?

((Note to moderators: Please note that I did NOT say that Catholics are not Christians, only that "Mother Theresa" is known for not loving the lost enough to share the Gospel with them).)

Francis is trying to live very modestly

Yeah, nothing says "Look at me! I'm living modestly!" like a guy who lives in a palace and demands that people bow down to him and kiss his ring.

((Note to moderators: Please note that I did NOT say that Catholics are not Christians, only that the pope's lifestyle does not match his alleged message of "modesty".))

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Your logical fallacy aside, I do spend quite a bit of time working with various charities.

Well thats good of you to do.

 

[ValleyGal]

Time and time again, this pope has shown his humility...refusing expensive cars with a chauffeur in favor of basic models without a driver, refusing the traditional lavish pope's home in favor of a simpler dwelling, etc. What he has done is far more (or at least more public) than any other pope I've known, and he has done it with humility and compassion. Perhaps for some, he is starting to restore a little respect for papacy (for those of us who have lost it).

 

[paul becke]

Nice gesture; it should be done more often, by cities and churches and sleeping bag stores.

The Vatican has annual revenue of $377 million, and various types of holdings in the billions. They bought sleeping bags for 300 people, and called the newspapers.

I wouldn't call it sacrificial. But it is certainly a positive example for the world, to remind them of people in need and the small things we can do for each other. Catholicism has a rich, extensive history of helping the poor around the world.

Fortune Magazine on Francis:
"He began replacing the old guard of cardinals and bishops with lay experts who are now largely setting strategy, heading regulatory oversight, and running day-to-day operations. Indeed, Francis has brought in some of the biggest brand names in the world of business....He despises waste and inefficiency, and he thinks the Vatican can run better with fewer employees."

It appears that as an individual, he is given a discretionary spending budget.

Can't imagine him painting the town red with it though, though, can you?

 

[paul becke]

There you go. Rather than giving them a sleeping bag and putting them out on the street, why not hire them to wash dishes or scrub floors in the pope's palace in exchange for a place to stay and a few dollars? Why not do something to actually help them, rather than just something to make their poverty more comfortable?

A lot of people in such dire straits are very damaged. Use your imagination. He has a specific job to do, with any number of problems to sort out. How could he function as pope, if he tried to do Mother Theresa's work as well.

In fact, atheists, such as the late C Hitchens vilified her and her nuns for not acting as a social workers, while she determined quite sensibly that the best thing they could do was to let those dying people know that they were loved. If they ended up dying of starvation in the street, what reason is there to believe that they would not do so immediately again. Seeing things in the light of eternity is always wise, but easier when people are in such a dire state in such a society.

In the UK, her nuns take in homeless people, some of whom are able to find employment again. But they are not found in an advanced stage of starvation lying in a gutter, their wounds being eaten by maggots; nor babies found in dust bins, whom they do endeavor to save.

Francis is trying to live very modestly and to get the rest of the hierarchy to do the same, but Rome wasn't built in a day. Or should I say, 'unbuilt' in a day.

 

[Albion]

I don't know.. unless you work at a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen. I don't think anybody has the right to criticize the pope for what he has done. What he has done is a lot more than what most people do. Have you personally emptied your coffers to provide for the poor? I haven't.

Yes, but "most people" are not posing as the moral conscience of the Christian world, either. It would seem that the pope would be doing more than giving out with well-publicized gestures.

 

[paul becke]

Yes, but "most people" are not posing as the moral conscience of the Christian world, either. It would seem that the pope would be doing more than giving out with well-publicized gestures.

Somebody has to oversee the vast network of missions, charities and domestic churches, world-wide. Why do you think the leaders of most countries in the world maintain relations with the holy see? Because they have missionaries and ambassadors who are the Pope's eyes and ears 'on the ground, all around the world.' Does your church? No. Also, to help improve relations between the Christian denominations and mutually-hostile countries.

Then to monitor that the theological teachings in the various colleges and seminaries, world-wide are faithful to the church's teachings, which is probably like painting the Forth Bridge, only with blackguards sometimes one step ahead.

You've chosen the wrong time to criticise a pope, as this man, Francis has proved a brilliant strategist and manager. Your anti-Catholic bigotry seems to blind you to quite well-known facts, and obvious extrapolations. Do you really think he has the time to personally supervise soup kitchens?

So, he allows photo-ops. If they are minimal, token gestures, it is still pointing the way for others, witnessing to the Gospel. Those sleeping bags will mean a whole lot more to those men and women than they do to you. Perhaps you think he should be doing the work of Mother Theresa's nuns in Calcutta, as well.

 

[Albion]

Somebody has to oversee the vast network of missions, charities and domestic churches, world-wide.

No one is disputing that. The fact remains, however, that comparing the head of the largest church in the world with the ordinary church member isn't meaningful. The person who is leader and spokesman, one very much in the public eye, and the unofficial moral leader of Christendom, ought to be producing more than gestures or tokens. So you can go on and on about how much responsibility he has, but doing that only proves my point.

 

[paul becke]

Far from it! You've just contradicted yourself. First, you say:

'The person who is leader and spokesman, one very much in the public eye, and the unofficial moral leader of Christendom, ought to be producing more than gestures or tokens.'

Then you say:

'So you can go on and on about how much responsibility he has, but doing that only proves my point.'

When I stated how many responsiblities he has, it would be obvious to most people that I meant that he actually carried out those responsibilities, (quite apart from the hours he spends in his devotions), and could hardly find time to work in the field as a 'foot-soldier' as well. You seem to either have reading difficulties or are plain unreasonable.

Still, it is interesting that you bring this subject up, because I have noticed that enormous numbers of the faithful seem to lap up his personal kind of pastoral care. It wouldn't 'ring my chimes', but I enormously respect the obviously vast number of people whose 'chimes' it does 'ring'. And as I said, you may despise Francis' small gesture - evidently choosing to ignore his enormous administrative work and apparently lengthy devotions, but you wouldn't if you were a homeless recipient of one of those sleeping bags; especially with winter drawing on..

I expect you'll have an answer of some kind, but I won't be interested in reading it, in view of the propensity you have shown for grossly misreading texts to which you are not sympathetic.

 

[Albion]

Far from it! You've just contradicted yourself. First, you say:

'The person who is leader and spokesman, one very much in the public eye, and the unofficial moral leader of Christendom, ought to be producing more than gestures or tokens.'

Then you say:

'So you can go on and on about how much responsibility he has, but doing that only proves my point.'

Well, I'm sorry if you didn't get the point, Paul, but there's no contradiction there..

When I stated how many responsiblities he has, it would be obvious to most people that I meant that he actually carried out those responsibilities, (quite apart from the hours he spends in his devotions), and could hardly find time to work in the field as a 'foot-soldier' as well. You seem to either have reading difficulties or are plain unreasonable.

Too busy to do what he tells every other head of state and government it must do, huh? I find that to be not a very convincing argument.

Still, it is interesting that you bring this subject up, because I have noticed that enormous numbers of the faithful seem to lap up his personal kind of pastoral care. It wouldn't 'ring my chimes', but I enormously respect the obviously vast number of people whose 'chimes' it does 'ring'. And as I said, you may despise Francis' small gesture

So you agree that it was a "small gesture." That's more or less my point.

But why you think you must also exaggerate wildly and try to make it sound as though there's some animosity involved--by saying that I "despise" the Pope just because I told the truth about this act of tokenism that other posters before me, and now you also, have noticed--I can't imagine.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I think we should be rebuking more Christian leaders than just the pope in being uh.. stingy.. in their generosity with charity.

 

[Albion]

I think we should be rebuking more Christian leaders than just the pope in being uh.. stingy.. in their generosity with charity.

Sure, but you previously said that no one had the right to criticize the Pope because he's done a lot more than most people. That's a lame argument, especially because you are here criticizing ordinary Christians who are not looked to as the leaders of Christianity, don't make sure the press gets the picture when they do anything at all that's charitable, and surely don't have the money, time, or manpower to engage in large scale relief projects. He does...and yet we're supposed to be impressed because the Pope had an employee hand out 300 sleeping bags. It wasn't even the Pope himself doing it.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Sure, but you previously said that no one had the right to criticize the Pope because he's done a lot more than most people. That's a lame argument, especially because you are here criticizing ordinary Christians who are not looked to as the leaders of Christianity, don't make sure the press gets the picture when they do anything at all that's charitable, and surely don't have the money, time, or manpower to engage in large scale relief projects. He does...and yet we're supposed to be impressed because the Pope had an employee hand out 300 sleeping bags. It wasn't even the Pope himself doing it.

This article is about what the pope personally did. I could've swore the RCC has charities to deal with the needs of the homeless and poor all across the world. I don't know exactly how much papal control is over vatican finances, but you have to remember that the vatican is technically its own sovereign nation. are you suggesting the vatican give up its national sovereignty and just be a church organization like all its branches all over the world?

 

[Albion]

This article is about what the pope personally did.

I reported exactly what the article relates.

I don't know exactly how much papal control is over vatican finances, but you have to remember that the vatican is technically its own sovereign nation. are you suggesting the vatican give up its national sovereignty and just be a church organization like all its branches all over the world?

No. And that's totally unrelated to the issue here. The Pope didn't do this personally, he delegated it. And it's tokenism, yet he has assets at his disposal that are far in excess of the ordinary Christians you are comparing to him. Get it now?