Yet another "Mary" thread . . . . .

[IamAdopted]

Yes, the veil was removed and the Church maintained and maintains the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

Prior to Christ's passion, No one was to know the key to knowing Christ, which was in HIS Mother....
The gate that NO man can pass through, because GOD passed through.

Its no longer a mystery...which is why Joseph was her guardian, and NOT her consumated mate.
He was the figure God ordained to keep this secret.

u**g*i*r

Her purpose was to do the Will of God...
Not to procreate and have ppl who could BOAST to be Christ's living DNA and to make claims of their literal ancestor Christ...

*or the foreshadow of Her as the Gate would have never been spoken.

The Church unveiled this mystery after Christ, and the CHURCH still teaches this....for the saints...so says scriptures.

c







You have absolutely NO scripture prooving Mary had relations with Joseph.

ABSOLUTELY none.
You do have a misunderstanding of the language...but not anywhere that states Christ had actual half sisters and brothers.

You are the one that has no proof..You say the scriptures don't say what they say so the church can keep this fallacy.. Number one.. The Holy Spirit was not married to Mary.. For the Holy Spirit is God.. Creator of Mary and all man kind.. He has no need to be Married for He is creator.. This is a man made thought.. This is why Christ was a miracle birth.. Jesus was before Mary was thought of with mankind.. He just came down from Heaven for a brief time to be Immanuel. God with us.. Instead of God being in the Ark of the coventant He was here walking on earth.. Christ..Christ is the new ark of the Covenant.. And we are Christ bearers.. We bear Christ in our Spirits.. Therefore we are His temple.. We cannot bring God down to mans ways because God created Man.. Therefore He can do as He pleases.. He is all mighty God..

 

[Asinner]

Hi. Could you elaborate more on the above post?
What exactly do you mean by "keeping mystery"

An examply would be the Eucharist. We know it is what it is. How it happens only God knows. A mystery.

Love,
Christina

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

An examply would be the Eucharist. We know it is what it is. How it happens only God knows. A mystery.

Love,
Christina

Eucharist? I suppose that would be a mystery to those that view the "Eucharist" like that.
What about this "euchrarist/last supper"?

Reve 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the Supper of the great God, 18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, [Ezekiel 39]

 

[Asinner]

How's the testimony of 2000 years?

 

[IamAdopted]

How's the testimony of 2000 years?

Doesn't mean its truth.. God word don't say it.. Therefore it is not Truth.. Men believed the world was flat for how many years??? Was it truth?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

How's the testimony of 2000 years?

Yes. You can look at a lot of them here:

http://www.creeds.net/

But what saith the Scriptures.

[SIZE=+0](Young) Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith to them, `Did ye never read in the Writings, A stone that the builders disallowed, it became head of a corner; from the Lord hath this come to pass, and it is wonderful in our eyes. [/SIZE]

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

How's the testimony of 2000 years?

I'd be interested in the first clearly stated opinion that Mary was ALWAYS a virgin - until her death (or nondeath). If it has been taught for 2,000 years, I'd expect this certainly to be First Century. Thanks!

Is it your position that if a denomination has always taught something that therefore, ergo, it MUST be correct? Or does that only apply to YOUR particular denomination?


Thank you.


Pax!


- Josiah

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

IMHO, you are getting our positions confused here.

It is MY position that I know NOTHING WHATSOEVER about the surpremely private issue of the sharing of these intimacies between Mary and Joseph after Jesus was born. They may have been frequent in such, they may not have done such at all - ever. I don't know. So, I have no pious opinion, no doctrine, no dogma on that point. I don't know. To be very blunt, I don't care - and I don't consider it any of my business. It's entirely moot anyway. God is understandably and respectfully silent about the extremely private aspect of their marriage - and so am I. I HAVE NO POSITION. No Protestant denomination known to me does.

YOU are the one with the DOGMA here. YOU are the one insisting - as the highest level of certainty and importance - that Mary and Joseph never once ever shared such intimacies. You KNOW that, for a fact, at the highest level of certainty, and it's of the greatest importance to know and believe that. YOU are the one saying you KNOW how often they "did it" (or not) and that it's critical.


I'm NOT speculating about anything.
You are DOGMATICLY stating that they never did.

You have absolutely NO scripture prooving Mary had relations with Joseph. ABSOLUTELY none.

EXACTLY!!

(I'm sure you read the quote from me that you responded to)

Which is why I have no dogma (or even a personal opinion) in this regard. You do.

YOU not only have an opinion and a doctrine but dogma. YOU are dogmatically CERTAIN that Mary and Joseph never once did it - ever, not once - and it's of the highest certainly and importance.

You do have a misunderstanding of the language...but not anywhere that states Christ had actual half sisters and brothers.

Exactly!!

It cannot be proven that the 4 named brothers and 3 or more unnamed sisters of Jesus are via Mary - I completely agree and have made that point many times. But that's not the issue before us. There is no "Dogma of Jesus the Only Child." Nope. We're here discussing the Dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Apples and oranges, my good friend.




Thank you!


Pax!


- Josiah



.

 

[Asinner]

I'd be interested in the first clearly stated opinion that Mary was ALWAYS a virgin - until her death (or nondeath). If it has been taught for 2,000 years, I'd expect this certainly to be First Century. Thanks!

The Liturgy of St. James references the Theotokos as ever-virgin and is still used today. This was written 1st century.

Hippolytus, martyred in 235 AD:
But the pious confession of the believer is that, with a view to our salvation, . . . the Creator of all things incorporated with Himself a rational soul and a sensible body from the all-holy Mary, ever-virgin, by an undefiled conception, without conversion, and was made man in nature, but separate from wickedness: the same was perfect God, and the same was perfect man; the same was in nature at once perfect God and man." (AGAINST BERON AND HELIX., Frag VIII).

Love,
Christina

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Liturgy of St. James references the Theotokos as ever-virgin and is still used today. This was written 1st century.

Hippolytus, martyred in 235 AD:
But the pious confession of the believer is that, with a view to our salvation, . . . the Creator of all things incorporated with Himself a rational soul and a sensible body from the all-holy Mary, ever-virgin, by an undefiled conception, without conversion, and was made man in nature, but separate from wickedness: the same was perfect God, and the same was perfect man; the same was in nature at once perfect God and man." (AGAINST BERON AND HELIX., Frag VIII).

Love,
Christina

Well, you guys finally made me go look up that liturgy.

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/lit-james.htm

....................This version of the Greek Liturgy of St James is highly provisional and tentative, principally because none of the editions available agree among themselves. The only critical edition is the one published by Dom B.-Ch. Mercier in volume 26 of the Patrologia Orientalis in 1950. This is extremely detailed and learned, but totally unusable as a practical edition, which it was not intended to be. Other scholarly editions can be found in Swainson’s ‘Greek Liturgies’ [1884] and in Brightman’s ‘Liturgies Eastern and Western’ [1896]........................................

I decided to start a thread on it here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t4814099-the-ever-virgin-of-the-liturgy-st-james.html

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The Liturgy of St. James references the Theotokos as ever-virgin and is still used today. This was written 1st century.

From wikipedia:

"On balance the weight of authorities is for a date between mid- and late-third century. An early form is thought to be alluded to by Eusebius of Caesarea in a sermon made around AD 320."




Thank you.

 

[Oblio]

Doesn't mean its truth.. God word don't say it..

Actually, God's word does say it.

On what basis do you believe the Church to be making things up and lying, and for what motive ? If the Church is lying about this, what about the canon of the Bible, her Creeds and confessions, her orthodox doctrines that countless were tortured and martyred to maintain ?

 

[Asinner]

From wikipedia:

"On balance the weight of authorities is for a date between mid- and late-third century. An early form is thought to be alluded to by Eusebius of Caesarea in a sermon made around AD 320."




Thank you.

I see you edited it.

From the same source:
The Liturgy of Saint James is considered to be the oldest surviving liturgy developed for general use in the Church. Its date of composition is still disputed with some authorities proposing an early date, perhaps ca. AD 60, close to the time of composition of Saint Paul's Epistle to the Romans. Many others, think that it is entirely destitute of any claim to an apostolic origin, and that it belongs to a much later age. On balance the weight of authorities is for a date between mid- and late-third century. An early form is thought to be alluded to by Eusebius of Caesarea in a sermon made around AD 320.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Lets review the FACT that whenever a hederodox opinion came along, the Church denounced and argued against it.

NO one; however; ever argued over Mary's Perpetual Virginity, with the exception of those in the last century.

IF Origen had stated Mary was ever virgin around 246 AD, and the CHURCH had always known differently, then there would have been an argument.

AND we know two things....1) no one ever discarded that truth, and 2) in fact that same truth carried on after as well.

You cannot tell me that 'new ideas' were easily accepted over time. THAT never occurred...since the truth always reigned, and the CHURCH would have either excommunicated the heretic who suggested something untaught, or the writings against such fallacies would have been noted.

The fact that she was proclaimed ever virgin even 200 years after 0 AD shows us that it was always taught soince noi one ever disputed against this teaching.
NOT once, not ever.

Well, until now, by those who do not belong to the ancient Church.

AND when Origen did teach something contrary to that which was taught, he was indeed excommunicated.

So it was NOT as though Origen was highly esteemed as a man with new traditions, but as with all who taught their opinion rather than what was already taught, he was removed, until and unless he recanted the hedorodox teachings.

The fact the Church always did this, shows us the teaching of Mary and the Perpetual Virginity was an ongoing belief and truth that did not cause the Church to have to dispute the concept.

IE, they all already knew this, and no one pulled it out of the air.

FOR what benefit would anyone have in teaching this if it were erroneous?

w

 

[WarriorAngel]

Doesn't mean its truth.. God word don't say it.. Therefore it is not Truth.. Men believed the world was flat for how many years??? Was it truth?

Actually, God's word does say it.

On what basis do you believe the Church to be making things up and lying, and for what motive ? If the Church is lying about this, what about the canon of the Bible, her Creeds and confessions, her orthodox doctrines that countless were tortured and martyred to maintain ?

GMTA ~ Great minds think alike.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Oblio
Actually, God's word does say it.

On what basis do you believe the Church to be making things up and lying, and for what motive ? If the Church is lying about this, what about the canon of the Bible, her Creeds and confessions, her orthodox doctrines that countless were tortured and martyred to maintain ?

God forbid we ever call fellow bretheren in the Lord Jesus liars!!!!
Misinterpretation of the Scriptures does not equate with purposely deceiving or lying.

(Young) Romans 9:1 Truth I say in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing testimony with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart-- 3 for I was wishing, I myself, to be anathema from the Christ--for my brethren, my kindred, according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, whose [is] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises, 5 whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.

 

[Oblio]

Yes, how odd it is that the first arguments against the PV of the Theotokos arise only in the past century, and then only among modern evangelicals. The denial of her ever virginity is neither based on the history of the Church, nor on Scriptural evidence. It is a belief born and bred of the modern distrust and throwing away of all things Catholic.

The problem with this of course is that with the emergence of the Orthodox Church (both Eastern and Oriental) in Western lands it is becoming obvious that this doctrine is not a Western Roman Catholic invention, but one held in common by all the Apostolic Churches. There can be only one reason for a common belief among these Apostolic Churches, and that is that the belief predated any Schism among them. Three Churches, separate for 1600 years, all believing the exact same thing. In this respect the PV of the Theotokos is on par with the doctrine of the Holy Trinity and other orthodox proclamations prior to the 4th Ecumenical council.

 

[Oblio]

Misinterpretation of the Scriptures does not equate with purposely deceiving or lying.

So the Church for 1800+ years had it wrong, misread and misheard and miscopied her manuscripts (but not the Bible of course) until American evangelicals with a romaphobic streak straightened us all out.

You have no evidence and no motive for the crime. And if you convict the Church in your mind, what does this say about the veracity of those things she gave you that you choose to accept because they fit your theology ?

 

[IamAdopted]

Because with this false doctrine the Catholic Church has put Mary up as equal with Jesus.. They can say that they don't but hey evidence speaks differently.. Look at all the books and how they lead the people to pray to her for redemption and ect..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes, how odd it is that the first arguments against the PV of the Theotokos arise only in the past century, and then only among modern evangelicals. The denial of her ever virginity is neither based on the history of the Church, nor on Scriptural evidence. It is a belief born and bred of the modern distrust and throwing away of all things Catholic.

The problem with this of course is that with the emergence of the Orthodox Church (both Eastern and Oriental) in Western lands it is becoming obvious that this doctrine is not a Western Roman Catholic invention, but one held in common by all the Apostolic Churches. There can be only one reason for a common belief among these Apostolic Churches, and that is that the belief predated any Schism among them. Three Churches, separate for 1600 years, all believing the exact same thing. In this respect the PV of the Theotokos is on par with the doctrine of the Holy Trinity and other orthodox proclamations prior to the 4th Ecumenical council.

Hi. It is still a Catholic doctrine to me.
Btw, has the church studied on the Melchizedek of the Bible as much as they do the "Mary".

Hebrews 7:1 For this Malkiy-Tsedeq , king of Salem, priest of God Most High, who did meet Abraham turning back from the smiting of the kings, and did bless him, ............ 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, and being made like to the Son of God, doth remain a priest continually.