Yeshua an empty Jewish myth from some Gnostic views?

[mylene]

Hello,

I came across an exchange in which certain beliefs of some subsets of Gnostics,holders of Pantheistic perspectives (including Ishmaelites) were being used against Jews and believers in Yeshua.

The claim is that the religious Jew Yeshua, who was in complete agreement with how Judaism was interpreted and who agreed with and obeyed all laws, was so friendly with fellow Religious elders and rabbinical courts in his time and lived well towards the end of that century even working with the religious courts till his age

They claim He was so united with Jewish religious sages that he never departed from Jerusalem but lived right on thus falsifying Messianic's faith and other believers in Yeshua.

Please give me help to counteract this strange claim from those who wish
harm to Israel and who intend casting a dubious light on Messianics.

Did Yeshua continue living in the land amongst the Jews till his old age even working/studying in the religious courts thus falsifying our Messianic faith?

 

[Henaynei]

Hello,

I came across an exchange in which certain beliefs of some subsets of Gnostics,holders of Pantheistic perspectives (including Ishmaelites) were being used against Jews and believers in Yeshua.

The claim is that the religious Jew Yeshua, who was in complete agreement with how Judaism was interpreted and who agreed with and obeyed all laws, was so friendly with fellow Religious elders and rabbinical courts in his time and lived well towards the end of that century even working with the religious courts till his age

[snip]Did Yeshua continue living in the land amongst the Jews till his old age even working/studying in the religious courts thus falsifying our Messianic faith?

How do they substantiate these claims?

 

[BenTsion]

Mylene,
Shalom!
I remember in another thread where the Messianic faith was being attacked (at that
time it was something about the Torah), simchat_torah made a wonderful
observation. He said that if one is making the claim, then such person is the one who
ought to prove it.

This affirmation in particular is so absurd that no serious person on this planet,
Messianic or not, would put any stock in it. There are thousands of historical records
about the early church. Now, how could a church (which was proved to be in
existence since at least the middle of the first century) have been founded on the claims of a redeeming death that never really ocurred. Mind you, if Yeshua had died at an old age (let's say around 60 according to the standards of that time), most people at the time would have known that he hadn't died at a young age. Also, if Christianity and Messianism are an invention of Rav. Sha'ul (which is what these groups usually claim) then Yeshua would have been alive when Rav. Sha'ul was around
writing to others that his death brought peace. Would that make any sense?

I love it when such religious groups make such historical claims. They are such any
easy target (because they lack ANY evidence). It's much harder to debate when they
stay in the arena of theology.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

 

[mylene]

How do they substantiate these claims?

They claim if he was righteous , he would not have done wrong thus Messianics cannot explain his end and are hard pressed to convince them otherwise.

Would you ask them to explain their lies since it appears as a sign of unbelief from you to them plus the believer is expected to have a ready answer from scripture proving he did not continue long.

How do we explain that he was fully righteous and at the same time explain that he had an early demise? They say it is dichotomous.

 

[BenTsion]

They claim if he was righteous , he would not have done wrong thus Messianics cannot explain his end and are hard pressed to convince them otherwise.

Since when "not doing any wrong" has stopped anyone from suffering? That thought
is ridiculous, from a historical perspective (not that any of their argument makes sense anyway) - just look at Ghandi, Martin Luther King, and many others... the world
is wicked so anyone doing good would be a much more likely target than an evil person.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

 

[mylene]

Mylene,
Shalom!
I remember in another thread where the Messianic faith was being attacked (at that
time it was something about the Torah), simchat_torah made a wonderful
observation. He said that if one is making the claim, then such person is the one who
ought to prove it.

This affirmation in particular is so absurd that no serious person on this planet,
Messianic or not, would put any stock in it. I love it when such religious groups make such historical claims. They are such any
easy target (because they lack ANY evidence). It's much harder to debate when they
stay in the arena of theology.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

Ben,
Shalom.

The refusal of a Messianic to explain why a righteous one died early is exactly why they are suspicious of Messianics because it is seen as a sign
of not being sure of your belief.

That approach is exactly what makes them wary of Messianics because it avoids explaining why a righteous one died unexpectedly.

In their opinion what is the direct explanation for his unexpected death if it is so deep a belief of Messianics that he died early.

The dichotomy here is what they base the claim on.

Could you explain the dichotomy of the unexpected death of a very holy righteous one?

 

[mylene]

Since when "not doing any wrong" has stopped anyone from suffering? That thought
is ridiculous, from a historical perspective (not that any of their argument makes sense anyway) - just look at Ghandi, Martin Luther King, and many others... the world
is wicked so anyone doing good would be a much more likely target than an evil person.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

Martin King was not found guilty of an error by due process so your point would not be plausible. Please help me with explanatory commentary explaining his death in scripture.

They require some form of jewish scriptural interpretation of how a righteous
Jewish religious person could be found in error by fellow Jewish religious ones.

It makes the jewish scripture paradoxical because how could a righteous one commit a religious error by that same religious law Yeshua righteously obeyed without any errors whatsoever?

 

[BenTsion]

They require some form of jewish scriptural interpretation of how a righteous
Jewish religious person could be found in error by fellow Jewish religious ones.

Even if you were able to find such an interpretation, it would still be a circular argument. For you to understand how Yeshua was killed despite being righteous you have to resort to the Brit Hadasha... therefore you have to believe it is historically accurate. I still believe that the best way of demonstrating the inconsistency of their argument would be to point out how illogical it would be for a church to be founded upon an alledged dead man who would still be walking the streets of Jerusalem.

Anyway, the excuse found by the jews of Yeshua's time to kill him was that he blasphemed when he claimed to be equal with the father, when he claimed to be G-d Himself (when he said "before Abraham was born, I AM" - every jew knew that "I AM" was the name of G-d, that's why they tried to stone him - who would want to stone a man just because he was saying he was thousands of years old?), when he claimed He had authority to forgive sins (which they knew only G-d could do) and also that he broke their law (which he didn't, he only refused to go along with their halacha, that is, their intepretation of the law) - you can find passages in which he heals on the shabbat, allows his disciples to eat without cerimonial handwashing, interacts with 'sinners'... he certainly wouldn't have been considered a righteous jews by the standards of the most prominent jewish sects of His time (even today I've seen articles in which some jews said Yeshua wasn't even a good jew for some of the reasons stated above).

Plus, Yeshua was quite a potential political thread. Very popular with the crowds, who saw him as a prophet and a potential political leader. He was a threat to the political power of the Sanhedrin and to the Roman authorities (who viewed charismatic messiah-like leaders with displeasure) - that gives more than reason enough to for them to want him dead.

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

 

[Henaynei]

They claim if he was righteous , he would not have done wrong thus Messianics cannot explain his end and are hard pressed to convince them otherwise.

Would you ask them to explain their lies since it appears as a sign of unbelief from you to them plus the believer is expected to have a ready answer from scripture proving he did not continue long.

How do we explain that he was fully righteous and at the same time explain that he had an early demise? They say it is dichotomous.

What "wrong" do they claim He committed?? Are they claiming the no one else has ever been executed for a crime for which he was blameless??

The ball is in THEIR court.

 

[Henaynei]

Martin King was not found guilty of an error by due process so your point would not be plausible. Please help me with explanatory commentary explaining his death in scripture.

They require some form of jewish scriptural interpretation of how a righteous
Jewish religious person could be found in error by fellow Jewish religious ones.

It makes the jewish scripture paradoxical because how could a righteous one commit a religious error by that same religious law Yeshua righteously obeyed without any errors whatsoever?

The ONLY "crime" He committed was "blasphemy" - for He did claim to be THE Messiah and THE Son of G-d. This is all in scripture - in the Ketuvim Natzrim (New Testament) - I urge you to go to a good online concordance and do a bit of word/reference search - I think you will find a beginning just doing a search for blashpemy and tore in the NT @ http://bible.crosswalk.com/index.cgi - in the New King James version option.

Now, if your audience does not believe, like some of the Jewish leadership back then, that He is not G-d and Messiah, then this truth from scripture will not affect them and I would urge you to follow scriptural mandate - both direct commands from the mouth of THE Messiah:

"And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!" (Markus 6:11)

Further I would urge you:

"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. (Mattityahu 7:6)

 

[Atkin]

Hello,

I came across an exchange in which certain beliefs of some subsets of Gnostics,holders of Pantheistic perspectives (including Ishmaelites) were being used against Jews and believers in Yeshua.

The claim is that the religious Jew Yeshua, who was in complete agreement with how Judaism was interpreted and who agreed with and obeyed all laws, was so friendly with fellow Religious elders and rabbinical courts in his time and lived well towards the end of that century even working with the religious courts till his age

They claim He was so united with Jewish religious sages that he never departed from Jerusalem but lived right on thus falsifying Messianic's faith and other believers in Yeshua.

Please give me help to counteract this strange claim from those who wish
harm to Israel and who intend casting a dubious light on Messianics.

Did Yeshua continue living in the land amongst the Jews till his old age even working/studying in the religious courts thus falsifying our Messianic faith?

The NT is clear on that for He did not continue.
What do they imply happened to him then?
I guess what they are saying is that since he was religious and pious, there was no way Yeshua could have done anything against the authorities.
So that means Yeshua could not have been apprehended since He never
transgressed.

 

[sojeru]

Hi Mylene,
in the Talmud it is written that one of the reasons of the destruction of the temple was becuase of "Baseless hatred"...the writers of the Gospels also alluded to this and applied it to the Messiah putting the words in the mouth of Messiah. "They hated me without a cause", in other words "they had baseless hated against me", well and long before the destruction of the temple.

Another reason was because of Lashon hara (evil speach) which caused the destruction of the temple. Evil speech can be used to slander a person. And so the religious court or rather a portion of the religious court (not the entire) wished to slander the good name of Messiah Yeshuah and so they spoke evil against the Messiah which led to the destruction of the temple.

these are a few examples.

I do invite you to ask a good Rabbi these questions. you can go to his website and email him from there.
www.members.aol.com/gkilli/home

I have met with him personally on few occasions- a very intelligent and honorable man.
When speaking with him, please refer to him as "your Honor".

hope this helps.

shalom u'bracha

 

[sojeru]

and that is a good point that you bring up Atkin, awesome and thank you,

in my last post what was shown was that the fault is on us Jews for having baseless hatred against the Messiah, and Yisrael/Judah (ourselves) and for slandering ourselves.
and so we have been working for years trying to instill this in all Jews to not have the such lurking in their hearts...you have no idea how much we focus to control the evil tongue (as even spoken of by James brother of Jesus- we can see his nfluence on Judaism today) and baseless hatred.

shalom u'bracha

 

[Aethelsige]

Who ever these are they would have to reject the death of the spotless lambs throughout Isreals history. Because they were too with defect and sacrificed.

 

[sojeru]

Aethelsige,

Hi how are you, the promise of long life applies only to humans and also a promise of FULLNESS and Fruitfulness of livestock.

so, they could easily refute your claim-- righteousness doesnt belong to animals- I dont know what Mystery there is to animals having their own righteousness save for the donkey of Messiah

shalom u'bracha

 

[Aethelsige]

I am refering to the Passover Lamb. It has both symbolic and practical ramifications that relate directly to Messiah.