YES or NO: Do The 10 Commandments Still Apply To Us Today? (2)

squint · Dec 12, 2007

fritz300 said:
Last time I checked, there were many here on these boards who like to deny Scriptures regarding keeping the commands of God...

The Law is a most difficult challenge to understand.

For those who understand Grace, but deny the applicability of the Law, there is resistance to that understanding. The reason they don't "like" the Law is because it does REVEAL lawlessness in them, and that they cannot and do not want to face...

For those who want to follow the Law in a fleshly manner, that same lawlessness is both revealed and empowered, and they don't get it either.

The validity of the Law is born out in this battle. The Law brings us to an undeniable knowledge of this Law:

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

The Law is very effective in bringing the LAWLESSNESS into EXPOSURE of the FACT that lawlessness exists in the FLESH...There shall be NO FLESH justified under the Law...no, not at all.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

WHY is there NO FLESH justified UNDER the Law? Because LAWLESSNESS in the flesh is REVEALED and EMPOWERED by that same Law. Lawlessness is WHY the Law was written...and it is AGAINST that power...YET empowers that power so that YOU as Gods child understands that lawlessness is there and that it is NOT YOU.

I'm going to write this clearly. THE LAW was always meant to be AGAINST the lawless...and the LAWLESS are the DEVIL and his messengers who have ACCESS to the flesh and minds of mankind. The "more" that "lawlessness" is placed UNDER the Law in the flesh, the MORE they show 'their' presence.

Christ SPOILED "these principalities" by SHOWING THEM OPENLY...did you fail to SEE THEM???

By the "work" of Christ WE ARE ALREADY COMPLETE:

Galatians 5:

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

[LOOK at what Christ did...can you not SEE the exposure of THE DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS in the FLESH OF MANKIND that Christ made???]

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Who is "they" and "them???" The same LAWLESSNESS that is in YOUR FLESH.

You as Gods child have been placed in THEIR MIDST.

Paul SEPARATED himself FROM that working in part by the understanding that LAWLESSNESS was NOT HIM...as Gods child yet that lawlessness WAS IN HIS own flesh.

Some will say BUT IF I do not murder, I AM FOLLOWING THE LAW...and to these I will observe this: IF you commit your fellow man to be burned alive in conscious torment forever ARE YOU NOT COMMITTING A WORSE ACTION THAN MURDER???

ARE YOU NOT committing ETERNAL DEATH to that PERSON??? In the same breath these claim not murdering a person is following the LAW...yet these continually measure ETERNAL DEATH to their fellow man in the name of FAITH!

And to these MOST LAWLESS ONES the law has made IT'S FULL MEASURE of lawlessness IN THE FLESH AND MIND! There is no greater hatred of your neighbors than THAT! And such are firmly in the grips of ETERNAL HATRED which HATRED was fostered both UNDER THE LAW and under LOVE...that working has had it's FULL EFFECT upon that FLESH and MIND. Look around you to see this working. It has rippled into the CHURCH and now controls them nearly ALL. The very God who LOVES mankind has now been turned into their ETERNAL TORTURER.

Galatians 5:
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Who then are the JUSTIFIED?

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

You say you have FAITH? Then show your LOVE by that same faith. LOVE for ones neighbors PROVES that LOVE LIVES IN YOU...

Love can and will IDENTIFY the lawless ones "accurately." THESE are NOT your fellow man but the power of lawlessness in the flesh which is OF THE DEVIL and it is the DEVIL that accuses our "brethren" both day and night and it is the "god of this world" who BLINDS the minds of the "unbelieving slaves." YET most just BLAME AND ACCUSE their fellow man nearly and totally incognizant of the working of the "god of this world."

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this;

Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Now go and be LAWFULL as the Law intended for those of HIS SPIRIT...you can still condemn the LAWLESS...you can still have "eternal judgment" and even "eternal death" in the Lake of Fire...

But understand THAT FATE is for the lawless...the DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS...and NOT your fellow man...

NOW you have both edges of the Sword of the Word IN HAND...

enjoy!

squint

RND · Dec 13, 2007

holo said:
A heir to Abraham, not to Moses.

And Moses was an heir to whom?

You're not a stranger sojourning in ancient Israel, though. You're not really even a gentile - in Christ there isn't greek or jew, there isn't even man or woman.

Actually, I'm an adopted son of the the Children of Israel. A "spiritual" Jew. Salvation was promised to the gentiles if they became members of the family.

No, because those who are joined with God were crucified with Christ and are DEAD to the law.

Which law? The one in the ark or the one outside it?

They are also righteous, and the law is for the wicked and ungodly.

So you mean those that call themselves "Christians" never, ever break the law? If so, why do we need a mediator and an intercessor in Heaven?

Hbr 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

By the way, if the law has remained, whatever happened to the 603 other commandments?

Some were kept and some were no longer needed.

That's a good question, but I know for sure that the mosaic law isn't written on my heart.

Thank you. Do you have an answer? Here's a couple more:

One must seriously ask themselves what were all those commandments, statutes and laws that Abraham kept? How was it possible, if Joseph was never given God's commandments, that he knew adultery with another man's wife was wrong and a "sin" before God?

RND · Dec 13, 2007

PROPHECYKID said:
What a way to drop the bomb!

I was thinking the same thing!

holo · Dec 13, 2007

RND said:
And Moses was an heir to whom?

To whoever went before him, just like Jesus and Judas were. That's not the point - Paul makes the point that we who believe are heirs to Abraham as opposed to Moses. Like Abraham, our blessing depends on God keeping His promises, not on us keeping the law.

RND said:
Actually, I'm an adopted son of the the Children of Israel. A "spiritual" Jew. Salvation was promised to the gentiles if they became members of the family.

Jews and gentiles are branches, Jesus is the tree. You have been grafted into Him, not into Israel.

RND said:
Which law? The one in the ark or the one outside it?

There's only one. We're dead to the entire law. You can't be under only part of the law.

RND said:
So you mean those that call themselves "Christians" never, ever break the law?

I mean that we who are dead can neither keep the law nor break it. Dead people simply don't keep or break laws.

Our salvation, our righteousness is Christ. Our righteousness is not that we keep the law.

RND said:
Hbr 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Exactly. A better covenant. Not based on us keeping a law, but based on the blood of Christ.

RND said:
Some were kept and some were no longer needed.

Does the bible say that?

RND said:
Thank you. Do you have an answer?

Sorry, I can't remember the question now.

RND said:
Here's a couple more:

One must seriously ask themselves what were all those commandments, statutes and laws that Abraham kept?

Well, it most definitely can't have been the mosaic law, since that didn't even exist then.

RND said:
How was it possible, if Joseph was never given God's commandments, that he knew adultery with another man's wife was wrong and a "sin" before God?

How is it possible that a hindu or some atheist or other person has a sense that stuff like that is wrong? It's certainly not because someone has read the law of Moses to them. What about you? Would you think adultery was fine if you didn't figure you were under (part of) the law?

RND · Dec 13, 2007

holo said:
To whoever went before him, just like Jesus and Judas were. That's not the point - Paul makes the point that we who believe are heirs to Abraham as opposed to Moses. Like Abraham, our blessing depends on God keeping His promises, not on us keeping the law.

So Moses was an heir to Abraham (just like me). Thanks for your admitting as much.

Jews and gentiles are branches, Jesus is the tree. You have been grafted into Him, not into Israel.

Christ is a type of Israel.

There's only one. We're dead to the entire law. You can't be under only part of the law.

Are you dening that there was a law placed inside the Ark and a law placed on the outside? What do you imaging that the Ark was representative of?

I mean that we who are dead can neither keep the law nor break it. Dead people simply don't keep or break laws.

But the "dead" that you are talking about are actually very much alive and in a constant battle against sin and sinfullness. Are you suggesting that you are sinless and without sin?

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Our salvation, our righteousness is Christ. Our righteousness is not that we keep the law.

So if we don't keep the law we break the law? We become a law unto ourselves?

Exactly. A better covenant. Not based on us keeping a law, but based on the blood of Christ.

But didn't Christ keep the law?

Does the bible say that?

Yes.

Sorry, I can't remember the question now.

The question was what are the laws that God writes in our hearts and minds? Jeremiah 31:30-34.

Well, it most definitely can't have been the mosaic law, since that didn't even exist then.

Must have been the ten commandments then right?

How is it possible that a hindu or some atheist or other person has a sense that stuff like that is wrong?

See Jeremiah 31:30-34.

It's certainly not because someone has read the law of Moses to them. What about you? Would you think adultery was fine if you didn't figure you were under (part of) the law?

That's right, they didn't read the "Law of Moses" to them. As for your question regarding adultery, everyone knows it's wrong, but that doesn't stop people from not doing it. The purpose of the law is not to save and cleanse, only Christ does that, but the point of the law is to expose sin.

Just because I drive the speed limit and obey all the traffic laws doesn't mean that those traffic laws don't exist. It just means I obey them. The "penalty" for breaking them doesn't effect me if I never break them.

The "penalty" for breaking the traffic laws only applies to those that are "caught" breaking the traffic laws. When someone breaks a traffic law, they become subject to the penalties of the law and thus become "under" the law.

holo · Dec 13, 2007

RND said:
So Moses was an heir to Abraham (just like me). Thanks for your admitting as much.

We are spiritual heirs to Abraham. We are not spiritual heirs to Moses. The fact that Moses came after Abraham doesn't mean we should follow him any more than we should follow Judas, who also came after Abraham.

RND said:
Christ is a type of Israel.

?

RND said:
Are you dening that there was a law placed inside the Ark and a law placed on the outside?

I'm denying that there is more than one law. The bible never talks about two or more different laws, but only of "the law". But part of the law is mentioned specifically; "the ministry of death, engraved on stone" which can only mean the ten commandments. Which are sort of the backbone of the law.

But the law has never been divided or added to. It is a whole, and Jesus said He hadn't come to abolish it and that not an iota of it should pass until it is all fulfilled.

RND said:
But the "dead" that you are talking about are actually very much alive and in a constant battle against sin and sinfullness. Are you suggesting that you are sinless and without sin?

I am suggesting that we are dead to the law, as Paul says. Don't you agree?

Being dead to the law is actually being dead to sin, because "the commandment is the power of sin" and "apart from the law, sin is dead." When we are dead to the law, we are as much slaves to sin as Adam and Eve were before they ate the forbidden fruit. In other words, not at all.

RND said:
So if we don't keep the law we break the law? We become a law unto ourselves?

Dead people can neither keep nor break the law.

RND said:
But didn't Christ keep the law?

He surpassed it. What's your point?

RND said:
Yes.

Where?

RND said:
The question was what are the laws that God writes in our hearts and minds? Jeremiah 31:30-34.

Though I'm not a member of neither the house of Israel nor the house of Judah, but a gentile, I guess you could say God has "written a law" on my heart. The law of love, then. It's certainly not the ministry of death, a list of commandments that demand that I accomplish this or that. Instead, it points to Christ.

RND said:
Must have been the ten commandments then right?

Nope, they didn't even exist.

RND said:
See Jeremiah 31:30-34.

Surely the atheist's notion that murder is wrong isn't the new covenant that Jeremiah is talking about?

RND said:
That's right, they didn't read the "Law of Moses" to them. As for your question regarding adultery, everyone knows it's wrong, but that doesn't stop people from not doing it. The purpose of the law is not to save and cleanse, only Christ does that, but the point of the law is to expose sin.

Yes, and it exposes sin by being the power of it. Sin takes advantage of the commandment and by the commandment produces all sorts of covetous desire in us. The law doesn't make anybody sin less, it makes them sin MORE. All who are under the law are under a curse. That's why it's such a good thing to be DEAD to the law.

RND said:
Just because I drive the speed limit and obey all the traffic laws doesn't mean that those traffic laws don't exist. It just means I obey them. The "penalty" for breaking them doesn't effect me if I never break them.

True, but God not punishing us isn't because we keep the law, but because Jesus took our place.

RND said:
The "penalty" for breaking the traffic laws only applies to those that are "caught" breaking the traffic laws. When someone breaks a traffic law, they become subject to the penalties of the law and thus become "under" the law.

No, if they weren't under the law to begin with, they couldn't break it in the first place. You can't break a law you're not already under. heck, the bible says Jesus was under the law!

And there's a huge difference between driving slowly because you don't want to break the law, and driving safely because you are actually concerned for others. As for me, I don't ever do anything at all because the law dictates it. Never. The law is for the wicked and ungodly after all, and if you actually need the law to keep you from stealing or murdering or whoring around, you are a confirming that the law is indeed for you. As for me, I'm righteous

(You're righteous too, even if you don't know it.)

RND · Dec 14, 2007

holo said:
We are spiritual heirs to Abraham. We are not spiritual heirs to Moses. The fact that Moses came after Abraham doesn't mean we should follow him any more than we should follow Judas, who also came after Abraham.

So we are all spirtual heirs to Abraham, is that correct?

?

Israel was a "type" and Jesus was an "anti-type" for the spiritual nature of Israel.

Hosea 11:1 When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

I'm denying that there is more than one law. The bible never talks about two or more different laws, but only of "the law". But part of the law is mentioned specifically; "the ministry of death, engraved on stone" which can only mean the ten commandments. Which are sort of the backbone of the law.

Then what was the law that Abraham and Joseph understood and followed? What was the law that allowed Cain to know that the murder of his brother was wrong? What was the law that determined the fate and consequence of Sodom and Gomorrha?

There obviously had to have been a law in placed that would allow God to judge people by before they were taken in the flood. What law was it?

But the law has never been divided or added to. It is a whole, and Jesus said He hadn't come to abolish it and that not an iota of it should pass until it is all fulfilled.

So then by that statement it would appear that there is still a law by which we are to examine ourselves by. Is that correct?

I am suggesting that we are dead to the law, as Paul says. Don't you agree?

Does that mean that the law has been abolished merely because we obey the law?

Are you suggesting that those who have accepted christ as Savior never sin and transgress the law? They never steal? Commit adultery? Lie?

Christians unfortunately do these things all the time. When they do, they no longer have to kill a spotless lamb but merely seek out the last sacrifice for sin, the Savior Jesus Christ.

Being dead to the law is actually being dead to sin, because "the commandment is the power of sin" and "apart from the law, sin is dead." When we are dead to the law, we are as much slaves to sin as Adam and Eve were before they ate the forbidden fruit. In other words, not at all.

So you readily admit that you have sin and are not sinless. By what standard do you measure yourself by to make this determination?

Dead people can neither keep nor break the law.

Because they are dead. What about those that are alive? Can they keep and break law?

He surpassed it. What's your point?

My point is that Christ was the sinless Lamb of God and thus did not break any of the ten commandments of the moral law of God. Had Jesus broken one of these laws He could not have been the the sacrifice without blemish.

Where?

Colossians 2.

Though I'm not a member of neither the house of Israel nor the house of Judah, but a gentile, I guess you could say God has "written a law" on my heart. The law of love, then. It's certainly not the ministry of death, a list of commandments that demand that I accomplish this or that. Instead, it points to Christ.

The law of love. Could you elaborate as to what these principles are and where they derive from?

Nope, they didn't even exist.

Then what was it that Abraham was able to keep? Joseph?
By what standard did God use then to judge those before the flood?

Are you aware that by chapter 6 of the book of Genesis that each one of the ten commandments are broken?

Surely the atheist's notion that murder is wrong isn't the new covenant that Jeremiah is talking about?

Then how do those that are godless know what is moral or not? Paul specifically says that these indeed have been made aware of God and His inentions for them.

Rom 1:18 ¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Yes, and it exposes sin by being the power of it. Sin takes advantage of the commandment and by the commandment produces all sorts of covetous desire in us. The law doesn't make anybody sin less, it makes them sin MORE. All who are under the law are under a curse. That's why it's such a good thing to be DEAD to the law.

The law of God makes people sin more? Do you have any sciptural proof of such a loose and reckless notion? The Bible says that God's law is perfect and that it converts the soul from sin, not makes people sin more.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.

What you are suggesting would be akin to saying that more laws against murder make more people murder. Or more laws against theft make people steal more. More speed laws make for more speeders.

True, but God not punishing us isn't because we keep the law, but because Jesus took our place.

So because Jesus took our place we are free to do what we want? If not, what standards do we use?

Paul at one time thought he was doing the work of God by persecuting the early Christian church. What standard was revealed to him that led him away from this belief?

No, if they weren't under the law to begin with, they couldn't break it in the first place. You can't break a law you're not already under. heck, the bible says Jesus was under the law!

So simply because I say I'm free of the law gives me license to be a law unto myself? That is, since I'm not "under the law" then I can do whatever I want and justify it?

And there's a huge difference between driving slowly because you don't want to break the law, and driving safely because you are actually concerned for others.

So by that rationale I can drive whatever speed I want and drive however I want as long as I believe in my heart or heart that my driving style is out of concern for others?

As for me, I don't ever do anything at all because the law dictates it. Never.

So you never stop at stop signs? What about red lights? What about pedestrians in the crosswalk?

Do you pay attention to these situations when they come up?

The law is for the wicked and ungodly after all, and if you actually need the law to keep you from stealing or murdering or whoring around, you are a confirming that the law is indeed for you. As for me, I'm righteous

What standard would you use for someone that isn't a Christian that is doing these things? For example, if you had a friend that was having an affair with a married person, if there is no law what standard would you use to tell them that adultery is wrong and not something the Lord desires for them?

(You're righteous too, even if you don't know it.)

Rom 3:9 ¶ What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is only one that is righteous and we must be clothed by Him and only by Him to even be considered worthy of taking on His righteous nature.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

holo · Dec 14, 2007

RND said:
So we are all spirtual heirs to Abraham, is that correct?

All who share his faith, yes.

RND said:
Israel was a "type" and Jesus was an "anti-type" for the spiritual nature of Israel.

Hosea 11:1 When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

OK, but I don't see how this means that I'm somehow grafted into Israel.

RND said:
Then what was the law that Abraham and Joseph understood and followed? What was the law that allowed Cain to know that the murder of his brother was wrong? What was the law that determined the fate and consequence of Sodom and Gomorrha?

There obviously had to have been a law in placed that would allow God to judge people by before they were taken in the flood. What law was it?

Perhaps "the demands of the law, written in their heart" that Paul talks about, this basic notion of right and wrong that we seem to be born with.

RND said:
So then by that statement it would appear that there is still a law by which we are to examine ourselves by. Is that correct?

No, because we are dead. Furthermore, I'm not an Israelite and hence was never under the law to begin with. Not to forget that I'm also righteous, while the law is for the wicked and ungodly.

But sure, you can measure my righteousness up against the law if you want to. My righteousness is Christ, so I have no fear.

RND said:
Does that mean that the law has been abolished merely because we obey the law?

No, the law hasn't been abolished, we have been abolished. We belonged to the law like a woman belonged to her husband, until death. Now we belong to another.

Just to clarify: I as a gentile was never under the mosaic law, but I was under "the demands of the law, written in their hearts, that either condemns them or aquits them" - I'm dead to that law just like the believing Jew is dead to the mosaic law.

RND said:
Are you suggesting that those who have accepted christ as Savior never sin and transgress the law? They never steal? Commit adultery? Lie?

In a way, yes. Because we who believe are born again, of God, and what is born of God cannot sin. However, we are still in our earthly bodies, and like Paul says about his struggle with sin; "it is then no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me" - because we don't want to sin. Our spirits only want to do what's good. That's why it bothers us so much when we DO sin. When we are in heaven we can't sin anymore, because we will be released from our bodies where sin dwells. Sin does not dwell in your spirit.

RND said:
Christians unfortunately do these things all the time. When they do, they no longer have to kill a spotless lamb but merely seek out the last sacrifice for sin, the Savior Jesus Christ.

What about those who lived before the law came with its sacrifices? They were forgiven too. Why would God need to sacrifice Jesus just for that? The thing is, Jesus is so much more than a sacrifice for our sins! He is Life itself. He is Truth. We didn't merely sacrifice Him in our place, we died with Him. But Christians unfortunately tend to downgrade Jesus to a good example and a perfect sacrifice and nothing more, and the gospel of grace is reduced to the gospel of mercy.

RND said:
So you readily admit that you have sin and are not sinless. By what standard do you measure yourself by to make this determination?

No, my point is that I'm as sinful as Adam and Eve were when they walked around naked, before they ate the forbidden fruit. The whole concept of accusing anyone of being unrighteous is really as foreign to me as it would be to them.

RND said:
Because they are dead. What about those that are alive? Can they keep and break law?

Sure. And those who are alive are all subject to the law somehow.

RND said:
My point is that Christ was the sinless Lamb of God and thus did not break any of the ten commandments of the moral law of God. Had Jesus broken one of these laws He could not have been the the sacrifice without blemish.

True. He was Himself a jew born under the law.

RND said:
Colossians 2.

Could you be more specific?

RND said:
The law of love. Could you elaborate as to what these principles are and where they derive from?

It's not a bunch of principles, it's just love. God is love, so it's basically part of His nature, or a reflection of it. It has nothing to do with the law.

It's just like when I bring flowers for my fiancé; I don't do it because some law demands it or because I'm "supposed to", I do it simply because I love her. To ask me which standard I use for this or which law I'm trying to live by in order to do it, is pointless.

RND said:
Then what was it that Abraham was able to keep? Joseph?
By what standard did God use then to judge those before the flood?

"The demands of the law, written in their hearts," I guess. God obviously doesn't judge anyone according to a written law that doesn't even exist.

Sin and guilt and forgiveness was around long before the law came. It came into the world the second Adam and Eve decided it looked good to know good from evil. We weren't created to have that kind of knowledge, but rather just live off God.

RND said:
Are you aware that by chapter 6 of the book of Genesis that each one of the ten commandments are broken?

You can't break a commandment that doesn't exist. But you can look back on it later and see that the law that was given later would have condemned them.

RND said:
Then how do those that are godless know what is moral or not? Paul specifically says that these indeed have been made aware of God and His inentions for them.

Point being?

RND said:
The law of God makes people sin more? Do you have any sciptural proof of such a loose and reckless notion?

The law is good, and it was given for a very specific purpose:

Romans 5:20
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Ever since the first prohibition (not to eat the fruit in the Garden), sin has taken advantage of the commandment:

Romans 7:5
For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.

Romans 7:8
But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.

Romans 7:9
Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Romans 7:11
For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

Romans 7:13
Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

So the law wasn't given to make anyone righteous, but rather to make us all stand GUILTY.

RND said:
What you are suggesting would be akin to saying that more laws against murder make more people murder. Or more laws against theft make people steal more. More speed laws make for more speeders.

I'm talking about our (saved people) relationship with the Lord, not a sinner's relationship with the government. But the commandment being the power of sin is a principle that you can see everywhere; just try telling a child that he's not allowed to look in the cupboard, for example.

RND said:
So because Jesus took our place we are free to do what we want?

Yes. All things are lawful to me, but not all things are beneficial. As for me, I only want to do good. How about you?

RND said:
Paul at one time thought he was doing the work of God by persecuting the early Christian church. What standard was revealed to him that led him away from this belief?

Jesus Christ Himself.

RND said:
So simply because I say I'm free of the law gives me license to be a law unto myself?

Not because YOU say you're free from the law, but because GOD says so.

RND said:
That is, since I'm not "under the law" then I can do whatever I want and justify it?

There is no condemnation for you, so you don't need to justify anything. You aren't being judged and measured according to the law, so the whole idea of justifying what you do is essentially pointless. Jesus IS your justification.

RND said:
So by that rationale I can drive whatever speed I want and drive however I want as long as I believe in my heart or heart that my driving style is out of concern for others?

You are still subject to traffic laws though. My point is that rather than the law forcing you to drive in a certain way, it's much better to actually be a careful and sensible driver. In our case, Jesus is both the driver, the car and the road. It's not like Jesus would need to be told how to drive safely.

RND said:
So you never stop at stop signs? What about red lights? What about pedestrians in the crosswalk?

???
I'm a sensible driver. Why shouldn't I stop for pedestrians? Why do you ask such a question? Would you run people down if it hadn't been illegal? Or do you perhaps have some other reason not to run them down?

RND said:
Do you pay attention to these situations when they come up?

Yes, very much. I pay attention to the situation rather than pondering traffic laws when I drive. I keep my eyes on the road, not on the rule book.

RND said:
What standard would you use for someone that isn't a Christian that is doing these things? For example, if you had a friend that was having an affair with a married person, if there is no law what standard would you use to tell them that adultery is wrong and not something the Lord desires for them?

Why should I use this or that standard on people? I don't focus on the law at all, I don't go around measuring people according to a list of commandments.

RND said:
Rom 3:9 ¶ What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is only one that is righteous and we must be clothed by Him and only by Him to even be considered worthy of taking on His righteous nature.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Exactly. Our righteousness is Christ, so to claim that you're any less than righteous is in fact saying that Christ is less than righteous.

Tkjjc · Dec 14, 2007

And the dance continues. Another person claiming we are "under" or "subject" to the "Law".

Using a speed limit is ridiculous. If there wasn't a sign, how could you break the law? Think of yourself dead to the Mosaic Law. Is it so hard to imagine? Why would someone continue to eat of the tree of KOGE when they have the Tree of Life? You are naked before God. Keep it that way.

All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

Does this mean Paul was subject to the "Law"?

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

Based of this verse alone, we can see that if you say a person is still subject to the Law, after being saved, you have made God a sinner if you are subject to Law and continue to sin. But wait! Is there a sin that you can knowingly do, while being subject to no Law?

Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is without the body; but he that commits fornication sins against his own body.

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!

Yes, here it says that if you commit fornication, then you have defiled the Temple of God, which is a sin, against the Temple, YOUR BODY joined with HIS.

But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit {with Him.}

But after receiving the Promise, being made clean, then how does one who IS CLEAN, become that which is unclean or sinful?

Such were some of you(WERE MAJOR SINNERS); but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Who are these people who are now justified, sanctified, and washed? These are Christians, right? Naked before God, pure in heart. You were divided between the Spirit and the soul. The soul or mind cannot fathom the wonders of God, but the Spirit is joined with His Spirit. He has split these apart, making us new.

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do

And how I abhor it when people claim this verse and use it to enslave people all over again.

1st John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

But they forget the verses LATER on in the MESSAGE that John wrote! But ALL those verses, in ORDER written!

1st John 3:4
Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

True statement!!

1st John 3:5
You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin

True statement!!

1st John 3:6
No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him

True statement!!

But that was the first cap on that message. IN HIM THERE IS NO SIN! If you ABIDE IN HIM, you CANNOT SIN, for you're justified, sanctified, washed, clean , Holy, born again, naked before God, a new creature, Body of Christ, Temple of God, and whatever else I can think of.

Are you of the Devil? Is this what you all want to be like?

1st John 3:8
the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

Ahh, can't have that now can we? But wait, another cap and this time it is the Chief Capstone, Cornerstone, First Laid unto the Foundation of the Holy Temple....

1st John 3:9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and HE CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God.

Ahh, there it is. The moment of TRUTH! How does one sin, when in reality he is not be made subject to Law, and the ministry of death?

Blue pill, or red pill time?

But wait, we aren't dead yet, right? We are still in these earthen vessels, right? How do I keep myself free and not subject to Laws? Dang it, sometimes I wish that I would just be dead, so I would not have to be subject no longer, and I could just rejoice in the fact I get to spend eternity with God now! In pure Love, enveloped, for ALL time.

But wait! WE ARE DEAD! How is this possible? How can it be? I must have missed this somehow! Are we in heaven? Or did I miss the boat, and wound up in hell? Is there an explanation? I must find it!

Ahh, here we go!

1st John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

The moment of Truth is come. I woke up! Those tubes of scrolls and laws I shall rip off of me. I don't live in death, and am not ministered in death. I live in LIFE now! I live in the "Real" now, why do you all want to stay jacked in?

But wait! Another commandment? More of the same Law? How can this be? I thought I was FREE! Maybe not, maybe this was an illusion! Should I believe this or not? Do I want to?

1st John 3:22
and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.

Dang, and here I thought that I was free from the Law. Now, more of the same! Or is it? Can this be clarified for me? I need to know, right here, right now! Was there an "s" after that word commandment? I need to know!

Ahh, here we go! There it is, that little gem in the rough!

1st John 3:23
And this is His Commandment: that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ and LOVE one another, just as he has commanded us.

The power of Love. The whole command! ALL of it buttoned up nice and neatly. Well, this I have for sure, and didn't need a command to do it. I do Love Him willingly and openly! So, yes! I can still LIVE FREELY, in Christ. No longer as a slave, but a righteous free man.

Enough said! Bondages and shackles are gone. We are made righteous in Christ, and LIVE IN HIM.

I.believe · Dec 14, 2007

Absolutely, they were given directly by God himself who every statement is for ever.. BTW, why don't you make it a poll so we can easily tally the results?

Tkjjc · Dec 14, 2007

A poll for what?

Who is a slave, and who is free?

Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

So therefore, what you rather be? A slave or a free person? By being free, we give or make ourselves slaves to Christ, not to the Law, for we are dead to the Law. Why deal with the elemental things when you are heirs according to the Promises made to bring us to completion and freedom? Since you are complete NOW, why then do you wish to be a slave to sin? Why preach the ministry of death when you should be preaching the Ministry of Christ , which is LIFE. Don't mistake those to whom Jesus was talking to. Jews living in Israel, who were bound under the Law, according to Moses. We are not bound by this Law, and instead are brought into the kingdom by the Blood of Jesus, by His death. It is finished! Nothing to do, nothing to add,, like you could anyway. Think if there was another way of completing this, it wouldn't have been done already? The Son of God Almighty of the Most High, died to set YOU free, so start acting like it.

RND · Dec 14, 2007

Tkjjc said:
And the dance continues. Another person claiming we are "under" or "subject" to the "Law".

If christ was subject to the law, whay would you assume that you aren't?

Using a speed limit is ridiculous. If there wasn't a sign, how could you break the law?

It's called the "Prima Facie" speed limit which means simply that you can not drive faster than the reasonable application of common sense would allow.

Just because a roads speed limit may be posted at a particular speed if the conditions warrant to observation of a slower speed then the slower speed is applicable. Think of driving on a freeway in a blizzrd.

Also, most states have a uniform speed limit to deal with roads that have no posted speed. That limit is usually 55 mph. However, if one was driving in front of a school without a posted sign the limit would still be 25 mph. Common sense tells us that.

Think of yourself dead to the Mosaic Law. Is it so hard to imagine? Why would someone continue to eat of the tree of KOGE when they have the Tree of Life? You are naked before God. Keep it that way.

What exposes our nakedness?

Did Adam and Eve or Cain break the Mosaic law? How could they, if it didn't exist at that time?

What laws, commandments and statutes of God did Abraham keep?

All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

Does this mean Paul was subject to the "Law"?

Yes. Was Paul ever accused by the Pharisees of breaking the law? When paul was murderering Christians and holding the coats of those that stoned them was Paul justified?

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

Click to expand...

If this is true then our bodies our not our own. Do we then have a right to treat our bodies in any manner we see fit?

Based of this verse alone, we can see that if you say a person is still subject to the Law, after being saved, you have made God a sinner if you are subject to Law and continue to sin. But wait! Is there a sin that you can knowingly do, while being subject to no Law?

How can one sin if the is no law? There is no sin where there is no law.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is without the body; but he that commits fornication sins against his own body.

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!

Is Paul saying then that murder, theft and lying are ok? If no, what standard would Paul use?

Yes, here it says that if you commit fornication, then you have defiled the Temple of God, which is a sin, against the Temple, YOUR BODY joined with HIS.

Is not murder, theft or lying also defiling the Temple of God?

But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit {with Him.}

But after receiving the Promise, being made clean, then how does one who IS CLEAN, become that which is unclean or sinful?

By sinning and trangressing the law of God.

Such were some of you(WERE MAJOR SINNERS); but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

That's right. But that doesn't mean that there is no more law.

Who are these people who are now justified, sanctified, and washed? These are Christians, right? Naked before God, pure in heart. You were divided between the Spirit and the soul. The soul or mind cannot fathom the wonders of God, but the Spirit is joined with His Spirit. He has split these apart, making us new.

Are you suggesting that once one accepts Christ there is no longer sin?

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Indeed. When Paul wrote this was he referring to the "New Testament" (which wasn't assembled for another 300 years) or the "Old Testament?"

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do

Click to expand...

And how I abhor it when people claim this verse and use it to enslave people all over again.

Usually those that insist that they are no longer subject to the will of God by obeying His laws have this penchant.

1st John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

What is sin?

But they forget the verses LATER on in the MESSAGE that John wrote! But ALL those verses, in ORDER written!

1st John 3:4
Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

True statement!!

Click to expand...

So sin then is the absence of the law?

1st John 3:5

Click to expand...

You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin

True statement!!

So if Christ came to take away sin then He came to take away lawlessness. What standard is used then to determine what is lawless?

1st John 3:6

Click to expand...

No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him

True statement!!

This is true. The closer we come to Him and His sinless life the more and more we detest sin. Stands to figure.

But that was the first cap on that message. IN HIM THERE IS NO SIN! If you ABIDE IN HIM, you CANNOT SIN, for you're justified, sanctified, washed, clean , Holy, born again, naked before God, a new creature, Body of Christ, Temple of God, and whatever else I can think of.

Click to expand...

Then why do we need an advocate in Heaven for when we do sin? Do we become perfect creatures that never sin once we have become Christians?

Are you of the Devil? Is this what you all want to be like?

Click to expand...

Obedient to God and His word? Yes. If I'm not mistaken it is Satan that didn't want to follow the rules.

1st John 3:8
the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

Click to expand...

Practices. That is, continues in sin. This is not describing occaisional sin. In either case, both are sin.

Ahh, can't have that now can we? But wait, another cap and this time it is the Chief Capstone, Cornerstone, First Laid unto the Foundation of the Holy Temple....

1st John 3:9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and HE CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God.

Click to expand...

Practices. As in regularly sins.

Ahh, there it is. The moment of TRUTH! How does one sin, when in reality he is not be made subject to Law, and the ministry of death?

Blue pill, or red pill time?

But wait, we aren't dead yet, right? We are still in these earthen vessels, right? How do I keep myself free and not subject to Laws? Dang it, sometimes I wish that I would just be dead, so I would not have to be subject no longer, and I could just rejoice in the fact I get to spend eternity with God now! In pure Love, enveloped, for ALL time.

But wait! WE ARE DEAD! How is this possible? How can it be? I must have missed this somehow! Are we in heaven? Or did I miss the boat, and wound up in hell? Is there an explanation? I must find it!

Ahh, here we go!

1st John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

Click to expand...

Love is indeed fulfilling God's law. What standard do we use to judge whether we are "loving" other's as God would have us to love?

Ours or His?

The moment of Truth is come. I woke up! Those tubes of scrolls and laws I shall rip off of me. I don't live in death, and am not ministered in death. I live in LIFE now! I live in the "Real" now, why do you all want to stay jacked in?

But wait! Another commandment? More of the same Law? How can this be? I thought I was FREE! Maybe not, maybe this was an illusion! Should I believe this or not? Do I want to?

1st John 3:22

Click to expand...

and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.

Dang, and here I thought that I was free from the Law. Now, more of the same! Or is it? Can this be clarified for me? I need to know, right here, right now! Was there an "s" after that word commandment? I need to know!

Ahh, here we go! There it is, that little gem in the rough!

1st John 3:23
And this is His Commandment: that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ and LOVE one another, just as he has commanded us.

And what is that standard of love?

There are priests that have claimed to be of God that believed when they were raping little children that they were showing them God's love.

What standard is there that would show this thought to be incorrect?

The power of Love. The whole command! ALL of it buttoned up nice and neatly. Well, this I have for sure, and didn't need a command to do it. I do Love Him willingly and openly! So, yes! I can still LIVE FREELY, in Christ. No longer as a slave, but a righteous free man.

That's good!

So are you no longer a sinner? Are you free from sin?

Enough said! Bondages and shackles are gone. We are made righteous in Christ, and LIVE IN HIM.

Click to expand...

Are we free to do whatever we want? If so, by what standard are we to point to? If not, by what standard are we to point to?

If people are free from the law then there can't be any sinners.

Tkjjc · Dec 14, 2007

Are we free to do whatever we want? If so, by what standard are we to point to? If not, by what standard are we to point to?

If people are free from the law then there can't be any sinners.

All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable.

Sorry if it takes a "law" to tell you what you can do, and not do. You know fornication doesn't always mean the sexual sense either. It also means subjecting yourself to idols. I can see here that people put the Law in place of Jesus on several of these posts. Jesus fulfilled that which COULD NOT be fulfilled by anyone prior, or since. Can you?

Anytime that we preach to another, we expose sin. Why is that? Because they are UNDER the LAW, subjected to it whether they liked it or not. They are separated from Christ. So we expose that, and if they ask for forgiveness, they are in turn unified with Christ, becoming part of the Body of Christ. After which they are set free, free from the shackles and bondages that bound them, and kept them enslaved. Then what? Sin again, and then re-shackle and re-bond? Can't happen, unless you remove Christ from within, if you can.

If you really stop and think about it, and I mean earnestly in Prayer, there must be thousands and thousands of ways a person can sin. Really anything that isn't out of Love for God, and your fellow man, is a sin. That was the only commandment given by Jesus. To do ANYTHING, and I mean ANYTHING against that, is a sin, no matter the circumstance. Right? Wow, and you still say you are a sinner?

I am set free. Jesus did this. No more worries, as our spirits are unified. Beautiful feeling too. Now, there is nothing left to do, but bring others into the fold, and that was also a command. Not to enslave, but to set free. Thanks be to Jesus, and Thanks be to God the Father for allowing us to become whole. That is what His death was for, and what His death gave me. This says it over and over in the Bible, why don't you believe it?

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Why would this say this? Free from what again? Oh yea, that condemning law.

It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

squint · Dec 14, 2007

Admitting that sin indwells "our" flesh is one thing

Falsely equating yourSELF as Gods child as being THE LAWLESS is a lie of the devil...

There are only TWO parties to the flesh...Jesus showed this fact abundantly well, and if you missed that much from the Gospels, you missed a lot...

One side of the WORD is directed AGAINST 'the lawless' who are NOT Gods children

The other side of the Word is FOR the children of God.

So the same Word (THE LAW) that is AGAINST the lawless is FOR the children of God.

And it's no wonder people get confused...it's a HARD PILL OF TRUTH to swallow that sin indwelling the flesh and evil present is NOT you...but it IS a scriptural FACT...

Jesus could look YOU right in the face and SPEAK to the EVIL that is present with YOU that is NOT YOU, yet He would mean YOU as Gods child NO HARM in that statement.

If you observe a "key" that Jesus delivered with the example of Peter, we see Peter applauded for Truth and in mere moments later we see SATAN rebuked

IN PETER...

IF God allows any of you as His children to see this FACT you will NEVER view your fellow man in the same way again...but that same resistance to this FACT dwells in the flesh and WILL NOT ALLOW you to see this...God has "intentionally" placed us ALL under that power that we would RISE in His Love...

We can still condemn the WICKED under the Law...THE WICKED however are not YOU and are NOT your fellow man...the WICKED are bound into OUR FLESH...and THE WICKED are empowered in the flesh by THE LAW...

When "lawlessness" in the flesh is put UNDER THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW...they prove THEY ARE THERE and they prove THEY are condemned...

Those condemned ones are NOT your fellow man...

When Jesus comes He will DIVIDE the "sheep" from the "goats." There are only TWO parties disclosed in that account of Matt. 25...mankind and DEVILS...

Do the math.

Some here are starting to get the picture.

enjoy!

squint

I.believe · Dec 14, 2007

I.believe said:
Absolutely, they were given directly by God Himself who every statement is for ever.. BTW, why don't you make it a poll so we can easily tally the results?

The Commandmants were given directly by the very hand of God Himself and will always be binding. No man has the authority to dismiss them. That is the difference between them and the levitical and dietary laws, made by man, which were done away with in the New Covenant.

RND · Dec 14, 2007

Tkjjc said:
All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable.

Is adultery lawful then? Rape? Murder? Hate? Violence against others?

Are these type of things "lawful?"

Sorry if it takes a "law" to tell you what you can do, and not do. You know fornication doesn't always mean the sexual sense either. It also means subjecting yourself to idols. I can see here that people put the Law in place of Jesus on several of these posts. Jesus fulfilled that which COULD NOT be fulfilled by anyone prior, or since. Can you?

No, of course not. But I am thankful for the nirror that is the law that helps point out the stain of sin.

Anytime that we preach to another, we expose sin. Why is that? Because they are UNDER the LAW, subjected to it whether they liked it or not. They are separated from Christ. So we expose that, and if they ask for forgiveness, they are in turn unified with Christ, becoming part of the Body of Christ. After which they are set free, free from the shackles and bondages that bound them, and kept them enslaved. Then what? Sin again, and then re-shackle and re-bond? Can't happen, unless you remove Christ from within, if you can.

Hmmm. So it is impossible to "sin" after accepting Christ as Lord and Savior? Again I ask, what is the purpose of having a mediator and High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary that forever give intercession for us?

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Why hey need for intercession if we are all sinless when we accept Christ?

If you really stop and think about it, and I mean earnestly in Prayer, there must be thousands and thousands of ways a person can sin.

Except for the saved right?

Really anything that isn't out of Love for God, and your fellow man, is a sin.

This is true and if sin still exist there is still a law that points it out.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

That was the only commandment given by Jesus. To do ANYTHING, and I mean ANYTHING against that, is a sin, no matter the circumstance. Right? Wow, and you still say you are a sinner?

I'm not foolish enough to say that I am without sin. Are you?

I am set free. Jesus did this. No more worries, as our spirits are unified. Beautiful feeling too. Now, there is nothing left to do, but bring others into the fold, and that was also a command. Not to enslave, but to set free. Thanks be to Jesus, and Thanks be to God the Father for allowing us to become whole. That is what His death was for, and what His death gave me. This says it over and over in the Bible, why don't you believe it?

Oh, I believe it. That's why I abide by His word and His commandments.

Are you free to do whatever you please because you are "set free?"

If not, why not?

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Indeed. Are we free then to break the law of sin and death?

Why would this say this? Free from what again? Oh yea, that condemning law.

Hmmm. So what happens when you accidentally break this law? What then? Or are you sinless and never, ever break the law?

It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Friends willing do those things asked of us by our friends. When Jesus said, "Obey my commandments" was He saying we are free to do whatever we want? Was Jesus giving license to all manner of trangression against God's government. If not, why not?

holo · Dec 14, 2007

RND said:
If christ was subject to the law, whay would you assume that you aren't?

That's like asking "if Jesus wore sandals, what makes you think you can wear sneakers?"

Why I would assume I'm not subject to the law;
I'm a gentile.
I'm dead.
I'm righteous.

By the way, imagine the reaction if you walked around in Israel in Jesus' day, claiming that you, a gentile, was under ten commandments of the law. I'm not sure if they'd stone you or laugh at you, but they certainly wouldn't accept such an outrageous claim. And the bible at large certainly doesn't support such an idea, either.

RND said:
Did Adam and Eve or Cain break the Mosaic law? How could they, if it didn't exist at that time?

Exactly.

RND said:
If this is true then our bodies our not our own. Do we then have a right to treat our bodies in any manner we see fit?

How do you see fit to treat your body?

RND said:
How can one sin if the is no law? There is no sin where there is no law.

Exactly

RND said:
Is Paul saying then that murder, theft and lying are ok?

You know, there's no rule against me rolling my girl in peanut butter and sprinkling sugar on top, but it's not like I have any reason to do it. Making a law against it would be completely pointless. And about as relevant as a commandment not to murder people, for example. I don't know about you, but I don't need to be told not to steal or murder etc.

RND said:
That's right. But that doesn't mean that there is no more law.

It means that there's no more Adam.

RND said:
What is sin?

Whatever is not of faith. Also, breaking the law. However, what the law says, it says to those who are under the law. You can't break a law that you're dead to.

RND said:
And what is that standard of love?

If you need some standard to be spelled out to you in order to love, you don't have love to begin with. You can't imitate love.

RND said:
So are you no longer a sinner?

Correctomundo. Jesus died for us while we were still sinners. We were sinners by nature, since we were born "in Adam" - but upon believing, we are born again, not as sinners this time, but as children of God, co-heirs with Christ.

RND said:
Are we free to do whatever we want? If so, by what standard are we to point to? If not, by what standard are we to point to?

Why this fixation on standards? What standard did Adam and Eve point to?

RND said:
If people are free from the law then there can't be any sinners.

Exactly, that's the gospel in a nutshell.

holo · Dec 14, 2007

RND said:
Is adultery lawful then? Rape? Murder? Hate? Violence against others?

Is it lawful to smack a hammer against your forehead?

RND said:
I'm not foolish enough to say that I am without sin. Are you?

Are you foolish enough to say that you aren't righteous? God has declared you righteous, are you going to contend with Him?

RND said:
Are you free to do whatever you please because you are "set free?"

Yes. What do you please to do?

RND said:
When Jesus said, "Obey my commandments" was He saying we are free to do whatever we want?

Was He saying that "my commandments" were the ten commandments, and that they were suddenly given to the gentiles, and the rest of the law abolished?

JustAsIam77 · Dec 14, 2007

MandM said:
This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "YES or NO: Do The 10 Commandments Still Apply To Us Today?"

If we are still "under the law" then Jesus Christ sacrifice was in vain. No. We are not under the law. We have been washed clean of our iniquity by the shed blood of our Saviour Jesus Christ. No one is worthy, not one. Only through Gods grace are we made clean as snow because of Christs sacrifice on our behalf. HOWEVER, when we are saved, justified and sanctified by the Holy Spirit, we obey the old covenant law to the best of our ability because we love our Redeemer and want to please Him.

PROPHECYKID · Dec 15, 2007

JustAsIam77 said:
If we are still "under the law" then Jesus Christ sacrifice was in vain. No. We are not under the law. We have been washed clean of our iniquity by the shed blood of our Saviour Jesus Christ. No one is worthy, not one. Only through Gods grace are we made clean as snow because of Christs sacrifice on our behalf. HOWEVER, when we are saved, justified and sanctified by the Holy Spirit, we obey the old covenant law to the best of our ability because we love our Redeemer and want to please Him.

I thought Jesus came so that his blood can atone for our sins and through his sacrifice we can be saved. I didn;t know he came so that we can break all of his law. So then i can steal, kill and lie since Jesus died on the cross. How nice. My carnal nature would really enjoy that.

YES or NO: Do The 10 Commandments Still Apply To Us Today? (2)

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

former Christian

Senior Veteran

former Christian

Senior Veteran

former Christian

Senior Member

Junior Member

Senior Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Senior Veteran

former Christian

former Christian

Veritas Liberabit Vos

Veteran

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency