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YECist bias towards the miraculous

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rmwilliamsll

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this is the particular posting i'm responding to:


but the issue comes up a lot, although it seems to change shape a little bit each time

for instance:

from: http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=23542550&postcount=9

i wrote this awhile back on the topic, still working on it. perhaps the discussion here will add to it.

this is a blog entry of mine at:
http://rmwilliamsjr.livejournal.com/90847.html
 

jereth

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If I understand you correctly, rmwilliamsll, you've made a very good point indeed.


It is definitely true that with popular YECist arguments, "miracle" = "work of God" while "natural evolutionary process" = "absence of God".


This is a reflection of an underlying deistic rather than theistic worldview. To the deist, God is inteventionist only when he makes a mountain suddenly appear out of thin air. To the theist, God is just as interventionist if he builds a mountain over millions of years using "natural" geological forces.

 
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shernren

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Like I elaborated elsewhere (in my reply to the CForums post rmswilliams refers to) I just can't wrap my head around how scientism and the preference to the miraculous seem to coexist in the YEC thought frame. What I'm thinking about is perhaps given the line down the middle of science between "acceptable science" and "unacceptable science", a corollary of how they define it is that acceptable science somehow glorifies God where unacceptable science vilifies God.
 
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mark kennedy

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I'm going to have to bookmark that blog, a lot of interesting points in the discussion. When I first became interested in Creationism as a part of Christian apologetics I was getting aquainted with a lot of different Pentecostals/Charismatics. They wholeheartedly believe in the miracles of tongues, prophecy, healing in their midst but they had no doctrine I was aware of regarding Genesis as 'special creation by divine fiat'. The ecstatic speach that is the mark of the Pentecostal/Charismatic experience was very different from the miracle at Pentecost. What you have to realize is that the pattern of a miracle in redemptive history, whether the confusion of tongues at Bable or the miracle of tounges in the New Testament follow definite patterns. The point is what passes for a miracle in the modern world and what the Bible describes as an epocal event in redemptive history are two very different things.

There is something of a paradox here between God's divine providence and miracles (dunamis 'power, inherent ability' Acts 2:22, Heb. 2:4) that confirm the revelation going out. These miracles (signs, wonders and mighty deeds) surround special periods of new revelation, particularly Moses and Joshua (Levetical laws), Elijah and Elisha (the prophetic period), Christ and the Apostles (foundation of the Church). At other times miracles happened but were not as common as they were in these times. It should be noted that in the ages marked by extraodinary miracles unbelief tended to rampant and genuine faith almost rare.

Do we expect a miracle as part of our salvation comparable to one in redemptive history? Sure we do, here is an Old Testament that has a New Testament conterpart. For the building of the tabernacle Bezalel was gifted by the 'Spirit of God':

"And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and all manner of workmanship." (Exodus 31:3)

"And He Himself (Christ) gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangeltists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." (Ephesians 4:11-13)

The only difference between the two ministries is that the former made an earthly tabranacle and the latter a spiritual one. New Testament gifts are no less supernatural, I used to ask people if they believed the Gospel when discussing miracles. Invariably they would answer sure I do, I would then tell them that that is a miracle, it is only by the power of the Holy Spirit that you trust Christ for your salvation and walk in Him, bearing fruit to the glory of the Father.


Galileo built a telescope that could magnify the 'heavens' 35X. The heavens were considered sacred and therefore perfect (note Galileo used astrology to diagnose medical conditions). What he discovered looking through his telescope was that there were mountains and valleys on the moon. At the time that was tantaumont to saying he saw a pimple on the Virgin Mary. By the way, Galileo did not go to the Inquisition for contradicting Scripture. Galileo was on trial for contradicting Aristotle and challenging the authority of the RCC. At this time, throughout scientific history continuing up tell the late 19th century the origin of the universe and life was attributed to God. Now the very mention of God draws down the anathama of secular scientists, branding creationism and intelligent design psuedo-science is the same as calling it a willfull deception. Having been called a liar fool and worse for YEC views I have found this to me the case and the prevailing view of YEC.


I cannot see the difference between this and methodological naturalism. It only differs slightly from Darwinism and the Theory of Evolution in that they do not go beyond the emergance of the first living cells. The theory of evolution is a living theory and has nothing to do with life from inanimate matter. Notice the sweeping generalities and transendant attributes attributed to materialistic 'physical structures'. This kind of transendance is metaphysics, it is a poor application of scientific knowledge from physics and biology and terrible theology.

One last thing, identifying YEC as within the same catagory commits the same fallacy of equivication that the theory of evolution does. Pentecostals/Charismatics speak in ecstatic speach thought to be the same as historical tounges, however, they are very different. Evolutionists equivicate the Theory of Evolution as science (empirical, demonstrated, directly observed phenomenon) with natural history. I agree that you can accept part of methodological naturalism without swallowing it whole. I do accept evolution as 'the change of alleles in populations over time' but not the transendant single common ancestory model of natural hsitory.

You might look at this response and wonder if I am not being unduly harsh with my Pentecostal or TE brethren. I suppose that might be a fair criticism but it is nothing close to the main point here. The Scriptures can be understood as both redemptive history and modern ministry guidelines. Evolution can, and I think should be, understood as both natural science and natural history. Just because I believe that the Apostles came out of the Upper room speaking in languages previously unknown to them, does not mean I expect to be able to myself. Just because I accept that alleles change over time does not mean I accept that this can be stretch them over billions of years and attibute to nature what is rightfully attributed to God alone. To replace God's place in creation described in Genesis 1, 2; John 1 and elsewhere has serious theological implications. Rejecting Genesis 1 as poetic prose rather then an historical narrative calles every miracle in Scripture into question from Genesis to Revelations. I for one do not accept the modernist interprutation based the historicity of God's miracles assested to throughout Scripture:

"Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty.
Right and true are all you ways, King of the ages!
Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and give glory to Your name.
For You alone are Holy.
All nations shall come and worship before You.
For your righteous deeds have been revealed"

Revelations 15:3,4

Grace and peace,
Mark

P.S. In clean up some of my typos I found underlines links embedded in words with links I did not provide. It looks like some kind of spyware, virus or something like that I need to clean up.
 
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