Ye Shall Be Hated of All Nations

[NightHawkeye]

Very interesting concept you bring up, Tracey.

Liberalism has taken the place of Persecution.

It's certainly true in the sense that liberalism supports secularism and abandonment of Christian values and traditions.

However, it's also true that liberalism supports many programs implemented to benefit the "dis-advantaged". Yet, exactly how many of those programs have resulted in any substantial long-term betterment of dis-advantaged is a matter of significant dispute.

An old - obviously biased - saying I heard again this week is:
- To make conservatives mad - lie to 'em.
- To make liberals mad - tell 'em the truth.

Proof is in the pudding, though ...

Liberalism has espoused the noblest of intentions, but pursued an inexorable march toward Marxism. The current administration has brought that very issue to the forefront. Marxism is unquestionably anti-christ, though not all "Marxist" regimes have persecuted Christians, per se. Some have though and few, if any, have done more than tolerate Christianity in a restricted sense.

Overall, I tend to agree with your sentiment, Tracey.

Liberalism has taken the place of Persecution.

 

[miamited]

Hi all,
Well, just for the record I disagree with those postings here that would assign this passage of great persecution and hate to come, to the Jews. However, when it gets here we'll all know it if we are still alive in those days.

God bless.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[Tractor1]

Overall, I tend to agree with your sentiment, Tracey.

The quote is in reference to religious liberalism.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[ADBatSaul]

jesus was very distinct in refering to jews as jews and people who called themselves jews, but did lie. he was quite clear that he came for the lost sheep, the lost tribes of israel.

That is correct. People that deny that Israel is a state and that the JEWS are not a people do not understand, nor do they WANT to understand.

Revelations 21 THE END tells the truth even if people refuse it:

[12] And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
[13] On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
[14] And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
[15] And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
[16] And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
[17] And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
[18] And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
[19] And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
[20] The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
[21] And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
[22] And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

------------------------------- WE ALL have a part, Jew and Gentile, which is why the scripture is written that way.


Israel is NOT a nation of 'un belief' as suggested, that is generalizing.

There are MANY Jews that believe in God, and there are MANY that are coming to the Messiah, YeShua Ha Mosciach. To deny this, is denying God.
Zion is the cornerstone, Jesus IS the cornerstone of ZION. To be 'anti-Zion' is also to be anti-God. Zion is written of in the Torah, Tanackh over 400x- I want Jews that feel led to go to Israel to return, promptly.

 

[ADBatSaul]

Very interesting concept you bring up, Tracey.



It's certainly true in the sense that liberalism supports secularism and abandonment of Christian values and traditions.

However, it's also true that liberalism supports many programs implemented to benefit the "dis-advantaged". Yet, exactly how many of those programs have resulted in any substantial long-term betterment of dis-advantaged is a matter of significant dispute.

An old - obviously biased - saying I heard again this week is:
- To make conservatives mad - lie to 'em.
- To make liberals mad - tell 'em the truth.

Proof is in the pudding, though ...

Liberalism has espoused the noblest of intentions, but pursued an inexorable march toward Marxism. The current administration has brought that very issue to the forefront. Marxism is unquestionably anti-christ, though not all "Marxist" regimes have persecuted Christians, per se. Some have though and few, if any, have done more than tolerate Christianity in a restricted sense.

Overall, I tend to agree with your sentiment, Tracey.

Marx, who was not the original 'founder' OF Marxism, (Engels was), HATED God. Was extremely anti-God.

Name some nations that do not end up persecuting Christians and Jews that are Marxist. This will be interesting to see, since communism is not noble, not kind and is genocidal to people that love God, inc. "Zionist-Judaic Jews" and Born again Christians.

How long do they 'tolerate' well meaning, God loving people? Not long at all. In Russia, they burned the churches and synagogues to the ground, in Nazi Germany which was also borderline Commie murdered believers in Jesus and Jews.

They HATE God and wish to kill God.

MARX:

"I wish to avenge myself against the One who rules above. We must war against all prevailing ideas of religion, of the state, of country, of patriotism. The idea of God is the keynote of a perverted civilization. It must be destroyed."

"My object in life is to dethrone God and destroy capitalism."
—Karl Marx
​

 

[canukian]

in russia they murdered 50 million christians. the usa is on the verge of being mass murdered by the same people as in ussr.

 

[ADBatSaul]

in russia they murdered 50 million christians. the usa is on the verge of being mass murdered by the same people as in ussr.

We dont HAVE to be Canuc. I do not plan to die at the hands of evil people. I believe 100% in self-defense.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Marx, who was not the original 'founder' OF Marxism, (Engels was), HATED God. Was extremely anti-God.

Name some nations that do not end up persecuting Christians and Jews that are Marxist. This will be interesting to see, since communism is not noble, not kind and is genocidal to people that love God, inc. "Zionist-Judaic Jews" and Born again Christians.

How long do they 'tolerate' well meaning, God loving people? Not long at all. In Russia, they burned the churches and synagogues to the ground, in Nazi Germany which was also borderline Commie murdered believers in Jesus and Jews.

They HATE God and wish to kill God.

MARX:

"I wish to avenge myself against the One who rules above. We must war against all prevailing ideas of religion, of the state, of country, of patriotism. The idea of God is the keynote of a perverted civilization. It must be destroyed."

"My object in life is to dethrone God and destroy capitalism."
—Karl Marx
​

I have for some time considered the possibility that the Great Red Dragon of Revelation 12 could be Marxism/Communism. Revelation 12 is the only place in the entire Bible using the term Red Dragon.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
​

Though none of the other instances of dragon in the Bible are RED, a seemingly relevant verse comes from Isaiah 27:

Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
​

Here though the dragon is slain. That differs from the description of Revelation 12, where the dragon is cast down to earth, but not slain.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
​

Yet, looking closely, the dragon is no more. Instead, the identity changes to that of the serpent/Devil.

Also, Psalm 74 offers an interesting twist, saying that leviathan (the great dragon / sea serpent) is broken into pieces and delivered to those in the wilderness.

Psalm 74:14 Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
​

No doubt there is significance to the dragon being described as RED. If not Marxism/Communism, then what?

And, if Marxism/Communism, then might casting down mean that the lies and deceit associated with the evils of Marxism/Communism/Socialism are finally so totally exposed that they lose their lustre and power?


.

 

[Achilles6129]

As far as the identity of the individuals who are persecuted in Mt. 24, etc., there is no doubt that Christ is referring to the Christians here. Jesus Christ often used his disciples to refer to all his true followers.

"19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Mt. 28:20

In this particular case, Christ says he is with his disciples "even unto the end of the world" (actually, age). The only way this could be possible is if Christ is referring to all his disciples throughout the entire church age here, because obviously his original disciples were dead long ago.

As far as Mt. 24, Mk. 13, and Lu. 21 go, there is no doubt that it is addressed to Christ's disciples (Christians, not Jews). As other members on these forums have already pointed out, Christ says that "ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake" which totally disqualifies anyone but Christians from this discourse.

As far as the antichrist being Christian or not, I have not read the entire discussion, but the word "antichrist" can mean both instead of Christ and against Christ (see Vine's description of the word "antichrist").

Here is Vine's entry on antichrist (Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon):

can mean either "against Christ" or "instead of Christ," or perhaps, combining the two, "one who, assuming the guise of Christ, opposes Christ" (Westcott). The word is found only in John's epistles,
(a) of the many "antichrists" who are forerunners of the "Antichrists" himself, 1Jo 2:18, 22; 2Jo 1:7;
(b) of the evil power which already operates anticipatively of the "Antichrist," 1Jo 4:3.
What the Apostle says of him so closely resembles what he says of the first beast in Rev. 13, and what the Apostle Paul says of the Man of Sin in 2 Thess. 2, that the same person seems to be in view in all these passages, rather than the second beast in Rev. 13, the false prophet; for the latter supports the former in all his Antichristian assumptions.
Note: The term pseudochristos, "a false Christ," is to be distinguished from the above; it is found in Mat 24:24; Mar 13:22. The false Christ does not deny the existence of Christ, he trades upon the expectation of His appearance, affirming that he is the Christ. The Antichrist denies the existence of the true God (Trench, Syn. XXX).

 

[ADBatSaul]

I have for some time considered the possibility that the Great Red Dragon of Revelation 12 could be Marxism/Communism. Revelation 12 is the only place in the entire Bible using the term Red Dragon.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
​

Though none of the other instances of dragon in the Bible are RED, a seemingly relevant verse comes from Isaiah 27:

Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
​

Here though the dragon is slain. That differs from the description of Revelation 12, where the dragon is cast down to earth, but not slain.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
​

Yet, looking closely, the dragon is no more. Instead, the identity changes to that of the serpent/Devil.

Also, Psalm 74 offers an interesting twist, saying that leviathan (the great dragon / sea serpent) is broken into pieces and delivered to those in the wilderness.

Psalm 74:14 Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
​

No doubt there is significance to the dragon being described as RED. If not Marxism/Communism, then what?

And, if Marxism/Communism, then might casting down mean that the lies and deceit associated with the evils of Marxism/Communism/Socialism are finally so totally exposed that they lose their lustre and power?


.

THEY call it "Marxism" I call it anti Christ.
Good Synopsis, Hawk.

 

[canukian]

I have for some time considered the possibility that the Great Red Dragon of Revelation 12 could be Marxism/Communism. Revelation 12 is the only place in the entire Bible using the term Red Dragon.

communism is one head of the dragon. the woman is giving birth to the 144,000.

 

[ADBatSaul]

communism is one head of the dragon. the woman is giving birth to the 144,000.

Hey Canuk; You forgot Clinton and Bush 41 in your pics. Bush 41 is the idiot that talked about the NWO=Anti-Christ

 

[ADBatSaul]

No, we're reading the same passage. Show me the word Christian.

In Christ,
Tracey

Tracey:
Can you please tell me 'who' he was referring to, then? Christians have been murdered for centuries.
Many people think it was always the Jews, but it isnt. It is ALWAYS Christians that are the first to go.

Do we forget that Jesus was crucified? He said that he 'endured' the cross with joy?
This persecution is nothing on earth compared to the glory that we shall receive.

IF we totally escape persecution, that will only be because there really WILL be a rapture, which I don't totally believe.

 

[Tractor1]

Tracey:
Can you please tell me 'who' he was referring to, then?

Answered previously. Read the context of the passage and it's self evident.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[ADBatSaul]

Answered previously.

Tracey:
What if you die, and people kill you for Christ, then what?

 

[ADBatSaul]

Tracey; You are not exempt, I am not exempt. We are all going to die, its just a question of HOW.

Do you refute that people have been murdered thorughout the generations for their belief in Jesus Christ?

 

[canukian]

Neither passage states Christians will be persecuted, nor does the context.

In Christ,
Tracey

the word christian had not yet been coined when the NT was written.

 

[Tractor1]

Tracey; You are not exempt, I am not exempt. We are all going to die, its just a question of HOW.

Do you refute that people have been murdered thorughout the generations for their belief in Jesus Christ?

Strange questioning. Where have I stated that I'm exempt from anything. My position is that the context of the passage speaks to Israel, not the Church. The Church was not yet in existence. Many Christians have died for their belief, but that has nothing to do with the passage in question.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[ADBatSaul]

Strange questioning. Where have I stated that I'm exempt from anything. My position is that the context of the passage speaks to Israel, not the Church. The Church was not yet in existence. Many Christians have died for their belief, but that has nothing to do with the passage in question.

In Christ,
Tracey

First, Acts 11:26 Talks about the first Christians.

2nd: Jews AND Gentiles are grafted in, Tracey.
And we are not exempt. There is no interpretation in this scripture.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Disclaimer: I don't subscribe to Marxism.

That said, I've been around this website for a month or so now, and I've seen the words "Marxist" and "Marxism" used more times than I can count. What I've yet to actually see are those decrying the evil of Marxism to actually have a working understanding of what Marxism teaches.

Karl Marx proposed a political philosophy that sought to eradicate class, interpreting history as a clash between classes, rich and poor, haves and have nots. Thus Marxism envisions and ultimate goal of the eradication of class, which also ultimately means the eradication of the State. To that end the goal of Marxism is common ownership, not State ownership.

To that end there has never been a functioning Marxist society. The USSR was a failed experiment of Marxism, it became totalitarianism (Leninist and Stalinist); the Chinese revolution was also a failed attempt at Marxism which became totalitarian (Maoist). The same situation in Cuba, et al.

A legitimate critique of Marxism might be that it's too idealistic and that when people, who naturally (what we as Christians know as sin) crave power and wealth, "try" to translate Marxism from theory to practice it collapses under the weight of human greed.

However using "Marxism" as a blanket term to describe certain "socialist ideas" and then to connect that to totalitarianism (i.e. "the government is trying to take away all my rights!") is monumentally ignorant and demonstrates little more than one's ability to pledge allegiance to certain loud political ideologues.

There are legitimate critiques against Marxism, and those at least would be constructive. Just as there are legitimate critiques against Capitalism. And as Christians legitimate critiques can be made against both on the basis of Christian theology and ethics. As an example, during his pontificate the late Pope John Paul II engaged critically with both Communism and Capitalism in favor of dealing social ethics from within a holistically Catholic and Christian vantage point (see here).

There can be an authentic Christian engagement with the political sphere without being corrupted by it.

-CryptoLutheran