Ye Shall Be Hated of All Nations

[zeke37]

Are we reading the same passages here?

Matthew 24
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mark 13
9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
[...]
13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

No, we're reading the same passage. Show me the word Christian.

In Christ,
Tracey

implied...

Mark 13
9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

 

[ivebeenshown]

No, we're reading the same passage. Show me the word Christian.

In Christ,
Tracey

It says in the passages... "for my sake" and "for my name's sake." Christ is speaking there. Zeke beat me to it.

 

[zeke37]

Yet, that interpretation contradicts multiple verses in the epistles of John, Zeke.

i disagree

From the epistles of John, we know with certainty that the anti-christ, by definition, will not be espousing christianity.

For example:

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
​

that is the spirit of antiChrist, not THE antiChrist....many disagree on who that was/is...

even so, this end time leader will claim to be God and all that is called God,

Jesus Christ is called God

lamb is used as a adjective for the second beast

Satan is coming "defacto" for a short time

there will be apostasy of the church, as he beguiles many of them

Similarly, if the anti-christ can't pretend to be Jesus Christ, then neither can the false prophet:

but he certainly can

Rev 24:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

no contradiction for me Bro....
the role of false prophet (false Jesus) is cast into the Lake 1000 years before final Judgement
as is the political power/beast that he held

Thanks for the great discussion, Zeke, but in the final analysis I have to go with the interpretation which is conflict-free. Let me know if you think I'm missing something though.

i don't believe there is a conflict...but I'm sure we disagree.
'tis fun to bounce ideas off of one another...
that is what growth is all about!

 

[zeke37]

It says in the passages... "for my sake" and "for my name's sake." Christ is speaking there. Zeke beat me to it.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Your point is well made, Zeke. It's a bit of a subtlety though ...

i don't believe there is a conflict...but I'm sure we disagree.
'tis fun to bounce ideas off of one another...
that is what growth is all about!

Disagree is too strong a term here, Zeke.

More like, we're just not in complete agreement. We agree though that no one has the complete picture ..., yet.


.

 

[ADBatSaul]

Neither passage states Christians will be persecuted, nor does the context.

In Christ,
Tracey

Well, we WILL be.
When I first accepted Jesus Christ as my savior, that first night...My Nana slammed the door IN MY FACE, on my face.

It is naive and silly to think that we will escape any tribulation. Even worse to put scripture in a box.

 

[Tractor1]

implied...

Mark 13
9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

Implied? The context of the Olivet Discourse in no way implies that Christians are its intended audience. This discourse, like the Sermon on the Mount, is addressed to Israel with Christ’s lament over Jerusalem as its divinely arranged introduction (Matt. 23:37-39). Its nature is that of a farewell address, and its purpose is to instruct those Jews who are living when these disclosures and instruction will apply. Without recognition of this fact a right interpretation is impossible.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[ivebeenshown]

Implied? The context of the Olivet Discourse in no way implies that Christians are its intended audience. This discourse, like the Sermon on the Mount, is addressed to Israel with Christ’s lament over Jerusalem as its divinely arranged introduction (Matt. 23:37-39). Its nature is that of a farewell address, and its purpose is to instruct those Jews who are living when these disclosures and instruction will apply. Without recognition of this fact a right interpretation is impossible.

In Christ,
Tracey

Jesus Christ said people would suffer for his name's sake. The Olivet Discourse was to his disciples, who were Christian. Recognize it.

 

[canukian]

I don't agree. This portion of the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:9-28) opens with specific counsel to Israel respecting their affliction. That people alone will be hated of all nations, and this hatred is the world's resentment against a divinely chosen race. The hatred is literally "for my name's sake"; for His name has been upon Israel from their beginning.

In Christ,
Tracey

do you mean the present country of israel, witch should have the name edom, evan though there is a large minority of real jews who decend from judah? even if you were to name the country for the real jews, the present country should be called judah.

the israel refered to in prophesy concerning now times is chrisendom aka the west.
the strong delusion is that this is not so.
comunism is the construct of edomites who decend directly from satan, and do own the fedeal reseve bank, witch is on the verge of controlling the world with the NWO. israel aka the west especialy the usa is the last obstical.
once the mass executions are over in the usa, just as was acomplished in the ussr where 50 million christians were murdered, the NWO will set up their antichrist in jeruselum.
our lord will return and train up the 144,000 to smash the nations as clay pots with rods of iron.
i pray the lord comes and smashes satans kingdom and brings his kindom to earth forever.

 

[Tractor1]

Jesus Christ said people would sufferfor his name's sake. The Olivet Discourse was to his disciples, who were Christian. Recognize it.

You're in error. The address was given to the disciples privately, and the twelve are here treated as Jews and representatives of the nation Israel. Followers of Christ were not called Christians until Antioch (Acts 11:26), and the disciples didn't belong to the Church (the living organism, not the local organization) since it was yet to be instituted (Matt. 16:18). There's no question Israel is addressed in the passage. That people alone are hated of all nations due to resentment against a divinely chosen race. To hold otherwise show a deficient understanding of the believer's position in Christ.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[canukian]

You're in error. The address was given to the disciples privately, and the twelve are here treated as Jews and representatives of the nation Israel. >snip
In Christ,
Tracey

jesus was very distinct in refering to jews as jews and people who called themselves jews, but did lie. he was quite clear that he came for the lost sheep, the lost tribes of israel.

 

[Tractor1]

jesus was very distinct in refering to jews as jews and people who called themselves jews, but did lie. he was quite clear that he came for the lost sheep, the lost tribes of israel.

And what does that have to do with the current disccussion?

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[canukian]

And what does that have to do with the current disccussion?

In Christ,
Tracey

Ye Shall Be Hated of All Nations

i am idendtifying israel.

 

[Tractor1]

Ye Shall Be Hated of All Nations

i am idendtifying israel.

I don't know who you're identifying, but the passages in question are most certainly addressing Israel when they speak of being "hated by all nations for my names sake" (Matt. 24:9; Mark 13:9).

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[zeke37]

for Christ's name sake, not any other...that means Chrsitians.

ONLY Christians ....

 

[canukian]

I don't know who you're identifying, but the passages in question are most certainly addressing Israel when they speak of being "hated by all nations for my names sake" (Matt. 24:9; Mark 13:9).

In Christ,
Tracey

are you saying then israel in prophesy is the modern country of israel?

 

[miamited]

Hi all,

Someone wrote that because 'Christian' isn't used in these passages that it therefore isn't for us. Come on, let's get real here. If the word 'Christian' has to be used to know that any of the instructions in the bible are intended for Christians, then I guess we Christians can just throw the book away. As I recall the words only used a couple of times and one is just an historical reference that in Antioch they were first called Christians.

I guess I'm going to have to get another book to tell me how I'm to live.

God bless you guys, I guess I'll be with some other group after this since you all won't be talking much about the bible. After all, it doesn't say it's written to Christians.

God bless.
In Christ, Ted.

 

[Super Kal]

thats the problem with Dispensationalism, miamited... it's filled with loop holes and false assumptions.

 

[Tractor1]

I guess I'm going to have to get another book to tell me how I'm to live.

There's no need for another book, but through careless co-mingling of the separate systems of divine government the most important distinctions in the various relationships between God and people are lost, and the recognition of the true force of the death of Christ and His coming again is obscured.

The Christian's daily life is to be directed only by the teachings of grace.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Tractor1]

are you saying then israel in prophesy is the modern country of israel?

God’s character is apparent and He can be trusted where we’re not able to fully understand. In all He does He is proved right and just, and regarding the elective purposes, no exceptions are found.

There are two major elections of God. One is Israel and the other the Church. While those who comprise the Body of Christ are elected on an individual basis, Israel’s election is national, the certainty of which is stated in the words, “For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29). Therefore, the nation’s blessing is guaranteed.

Though there’s a national objective in Israel’s election the individual Jew, while belonging to the elect nation, doesn’t have any personal election assured them. What God covenants to His elect nation is one thing, and what He covenants to individuals within that nation is another. The national entity has been and will be preserved forever according to promise (Isa. 66:22; Jer. 31:35-37; Gen. 17:7-8), but the individual is subject to a prescribed and regulated conduct which carries with it penalty of individual judgment for failure (Deut. 28:58-62; Ezek. 20:33-44; Matt. 24:51; 25:12,30).

I believe Scripture teaches that when the Israel returns to her land for the final time it will be in unbelief.

“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; ...” (Ezek. 36:24-26).

Today’s Israel certainly fits the description of a nation in unbelief. It’s a secular society for the most part which continues in open opposition and defiance towards God’s Messiah. But, while this may be the situation, a time will come when God’s purpose will again revert to bringing salvation to the nation (Rom. 11:26-27).

In Christ,
Tracey