Ye Olde Libertarian Pub

MacFall · Mar 30, 2013

I never did figure out how to use Dwolla. I don't remember what the trouble was, but it just didn't seem to work for me. I eventually just sent $200 to some guy in the mail, he sent me an email asking for a wallet address, and I got $180 worth of $8 bitcoin ($200 less his then quite reasonable 10% fee). Spent half of it on insulin while I was unemployed once, but I still have some bitcoin that I bought for $8, worth $91.59 at the time of this post.

MacFall · Mar 30, 2013

Nilloc said:
There's actually a Wikipedia page for the comic here.

Surreal.

zoink · Mar 30, 2013

I think I ranted about this too you in PM MacFall, but I'm going to do it again.

It's particular frustrating because it's not like what I hear a lot of people say. "I knew I should have bough x stalk when it was at price y. I just never pulled the trigger"

No, I went through a month long process moving $150.00 to Dwolla and was then going to move it to Mt. Gox because at the time that was supposed to be the best way to do it. Then a couple days before my funds are free to move Deolla demands that Mt. Gox force any client transfering money has to be verified. Which entails providing a proof of address; which isn't easily accessible, nor did I want to do that.

I lost out on over 2 grand...

At least I was able to figure out how to get in at $49. Now the question is: is bitcoin in a bubble that's going to pop, or is it going mainstream? Should I buy a bunch more or hold off for the bubble to pop... I need a crystal ball.

MacFall · Mar 30, 2013

"It's only a bubble after it pops."

I have no idea. Right now it looks, from the long, LONG lines for verification at various exchanges, that there's enough demand to absorb even a massive sell-off by a major holder. If that sell-off doesn't happen, it's got a long way to climb before there's a correction even in the rate of price increase, not to mention the price itself.

During that time we could see more widespread adoption start to happen. And if that happens, we're just at the bottom of the mountain.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see a few big corrections in the meantime, but for the long run, even if Bitcoin only fills a small niche as a competitor with PayPal for digital goods only, it will still have to be worth a few thousand per bitcoin.

zoink · Mar 31, 2013

I probably should move some money to Dwolla and then into an exchange just in case. I'm making a point only to use money that if I lose it all it's not a big deal.

My roommate and I have an order in for an ASIC (could be a scam) so we can try our hand as some mining.

You're absolutely right, if BTC goes mainstream they'll probably be worth thousands of dollars. I think there's not a whole lot of middle ground. BTC either goes big or goes bust. Middle ground would maybe occur if they're were a bunch of crypto currencies.

The funny thing was I bought most of my bitcoins the day before the block chain split.

MacFall · Mar 31, 2013

Yeah, I remember that! I read your PM first thing in the morning and then I check the news and everyone's freaking out about the hard fork. I was like "Man, I hope this whole thing doesn't go down the day zoink decides to get into it!"

But it all worked out fine. Actually if you'd waited a day you could have bought in cheaper because of all the weak hands selling out during the crisis.

zoink · Apr 1, 2013

My roommate actually got a few at 38 when that dip happened. I didn't think they were going to fix it that fast.

As I sit here BTC just hit 100. If it holds throughout the day that's going to probably get some news. Probably more then the billion dollar market cap.

Encryption, crypto currency, and 3D printing are giving me a little more hope then I have had. I'm not sure BTC is going to be the crypto-currency but I think it is the future. So many of the aggressive monopolies become futile. They can't track money, they can't track trade, IP in the physical world becomes as difficult to enforce as the digital world.

If we can just get the philosophical shift to happen. That's the part that I'm much less hopeful about and why I think I'll still have to move to find a libertarian society in my life time.

They unfortunately thing is statists don't just go down kicking and screaming. They go down violently.

Panzerkamfwagen · Apr 1, 2013

Anyone started taking their money out of savings accounts as a result of the shenanigans in Cyprus?

They say to put your money in a bank because it's safe. Well, when a bank becomes a thief, it isn't safe any more. At this point, I think cash is more valuable than the piddly interest rates that the banks pay.

MacFall · Apr 1, 2013

Quite a few Cypriots have opened accounts at MtGox and other bitcoin exchanges.

I don't trust a bank as far as I can throw their vault.

MacFall · Apr 1, 2013

zoink said:
My roommate actually got a few at 38 when that dip happened. I didn't think they were going to fix it that fast.

As I sit here BTC just hit 100. If it holds throughout the day that's going to probably get some news. Probably more then the billion dollar market cap.

I sort of selfishly want it to drop again. I'm just about to buy. Let it go up again at the end of today and tomorrow can be the news day.

They unfortunately thing is statists don't just go down kicking and screaming. They go down violently.

One of the comments on the subreddit encapsulates the agorist potential of bitcoin, which gives me hope: "If Bitcoin goes mainstream they will be using it in the [expletive deleted] FBI cafeteria before they can do anything about it."

If the agents of the state become dependent on the instrument of the state's destruction for their day-to-day needs, then we will have the peaceful revolution that libertarians want to see.

zoink · Apr 1, 2013

Panzerkampfwagen said:
Anyone started taking their money out of savings accounts as a result of the shenanigans in Cyprus?

It sets a precident but I don't think it's going to be a super quick thing in the US. I don't think the long term outlook for the US economy is good, but I don't think the short term out look is Cyprus bad. I'm definitelly not giong to throw more money at BTC then I can afford to lose. I'm thinking about moving someone into BTC and then some more into junk silver. I do think guns and ammo are in a bubble though. I've got a some money set aside to pick some up if that pops.

MacFall said:
One of the comments on the subreddit encapsulates the agorist potential of bitcoin, which gives me hope: "If Bitcoin goes mainstream they will be using it in the [expletive deleted] FBI cafeteria before they can do anything about it."

If the agents of the state become dependent on the instrument of the state's destruction for their day-to-day needs, then we will have the peaceful revolution that libertarians want to see.

I hope that happens.

Panzerkamfwagen · Apr 1, 2013

zoink said:
It sets a precident but I don't think it's going to be a super quick thing in the US. I don't think the long term outlook for the US economy is good, but I don't think the short term out look is Cyprus bad. I'm definitelly not giong to throw more money at BTC then I can afford to lose. I'm thinking about moving someone into BTC and then some more into junk silver. I do think guns and ammo are in a bubble though. I've got a some money set aside to pick some up if that pops.

If you were going to invest in guns, the time to do that was about 10 years ago when you could pick up a Mosin Nagant at Big 5 for $50. Now they are going for $170. I remember when a K-31 there was $100. Now they're going for at least $300.

I don't think the milsurp rifles are in a bubble because there's a finite supply of them.

Remember, that Congress has already talked about stealing your 401k. So, I wouldn't really put anything past them.

The guns and ammo are for when people realize that the electronic money doesn't work.

Kurama · Apr 2, 2013

I have at times been rather skeptical about my libertarian leaning beliefs when coming in contact with my Christianity. Indeed the common social conservative would denounce libertarianism as being a total omission to tradition and religion, since it allows the rise of drug legalisation, prostitution, abortion and gay marriage. Thus being a Christian libertarian would be rather contradictory in that sense...

However after further contemplation I realised that the typical government Christ would want us to have would be libertarian. He believed that we should see Him as our Lord and Saviour, and as a guide to morals and ethics. The government should have no right to dictate what we believe in through ''political correctness''. Indeed abortions, adultery and per-marital sex are sinful, but that does not mean that the government should point a gun at us! The government has not divinely appointed authority to do so.

If we truly believe in a freedom of religion nation and not a theocracy (such as in Iran, where homosexuals are summarily executed), then libertarianism is the answer. I hold my own Christian and moral beliefs, but I should not enforce them on others. I have always highly regarded the libertarian Non Aggression Principle, of which all forms of aggression are illegitimate, and feel that it is quite Christian in nature.

I personally do not support the Libertarian Party though. It's not because of their their socially liberal policies (as mentioned I stick to my own beliefs, others can have their own rights), but because I do not believe in a party completely dedicated to simply reducing the federal budget, cutting taxes and nothing more (also the unfair ballot access rule doesn't help). We should focus more on improving our two current parties. This is why I tend to support liberty minded politicians, both in the Democratic and Republican parties.

Ron Paul, perhaps one of the only current politicians I could ever label as a true statesman, quoted: There is only one kind of freedom and that's individual liberty. Our lives come from our creator and our liberty comes from our creator. It has nothing to do with government granting it.

MacFall · Apr 2, 2013

Kurama said:
However after further contemplation I realised that the typical government Christ would want us to have would be libertarian. He believed that we should see Him as our Lord and Saviour, and as a guide to morals and ethics.

Strictly speaking, if Jesus is Lord then Caesar can't be. Their respective governments run on mutually opposing principles.

I have always highly regarded the libertarian Non Aggression Principle, of which all forms of aggression are illegitimate, and feel that it is quite Christian in nature.

Quite. I am a libertarian because I believe the NAP to be implied by the Golden Rule: Nobody wants to be the victim of aggression; in fact it is impossible for anyone to want to be the victim of aggression. If they wanted it, it would not be aggression. Persuant to the Golden Rule, therefore, nobody can ever use aggression against anyone else. Self-defense is kind of a sticky issue, but regardless of the permissibility of self-defense, aggression is never permissible.

I personally do not support the Libertarian Party though. It's not because of their their socially liberal policies (as mentioned I stick to my own beliefs, others can have their own rights), but because I do not believe in a party completely dedicated to simply reducing the federal budget, cutting taxes and nothing more (also the unfair ballot access rule doesn't help). We should focus more on improving our two current parties. This is why I tend to support liberty minded politicians, both in the Democratic and Republican parties.

I don't support the Libertarian Party because I consider all political action to be schmuck-bait.

I'm an agorist, personally. But in all seriousness I don't begrudge those who work within the system, as long as they do not oppose alternative forms of activism. I believe that the Church should be working to construct alternatives to the state that are compatible with the discipleship of the Prince of Peace: private charity, networks of trust, contract-based law and peaceful dispute resolution, to name a few.

Motor City Christian · Apr 9, 2013

Got room here for someone who is 55%Constitution Party, 40% Libertarian, and 5% Republican? LOL. Pretty close to my break down. How many of you voted for Gary Johnson? I did.

Nilloc · Apr 9, 2013

Motor City Christian said:
Got room here for someone who is 55%Constitution Party, 40% Libertarian, and 5% Republican?

Of course!

How many of you voted for Gary Johnson? I did.

I did; first time I voted in a presidential election.

Motor City Christian · Apr 9, 2013

I almost voted for Virgil Goode, but I then found unsavory comments he made in regards to race relations with blacks and Arabic people. I cannot vote for someone who is like that. He was decent on a lot of issues, but he was no Chuck Baldwin.

illudium_phosdex · Apr 9, 2013

Motor City Christian said:
Got room here for someone who is 55%Constitution Party, 40% Libertarian, and 5% Republican? LOL. Pretty close to my break down. How many of you voted for Gary Johnson? I did.

I did.

I've voted Libertarian in the last 4 elections.

Calvinist Dark Lord · Apr 10, 2013

Nilloc said:
Of course!

I did; first time I voted in a presidential election.

Last time i voted for a "majour party" candidate for the Presidency was 1984.

i'm one of the few people who actually voted for Ron Paul (in 1988).

The only time i didn't vote for the Libertarian candidate was 1992 and 2000.

2008 was somewhat of a dilemma. Bob Barr was good theoretically, but when one does not have time to think he or she will revert to instincts. Barr hasn't been Libertarian long enough to have Libertarian instincts. i also found Wayne Allen Root's manipulation of the Libertarian nominating process to be distasteful. Mary Ruwart would have been a better candidate than Barr.

i have my differences with Johnson, but found him to be the best candidate available.

Motor City Christian · Apr 10, 2013

As I recall, Mr. Barr threw a big fit over Ron Paul's unwillingness to directly support/endorse him. He also sounded like he renounced a lot of his libertarian ideals the week before the election. I don't blame RP though; he was good friends with Chuck Baldwin as well who got my vote. If Free and Equal can host the next third party debate, both Constitution Party and Libertarian candidates will continue to bear consideration from me.

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