WWMC Name Change Interest Poll and Discussion

[FreeinChrist]

The faith forums are not labeled "Christians Only", hence we can only assume the rules apply which say:

"Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs."

CF Statement of Faith | Christian Forums

That is because the congregational forums allow questions and fellowship (like "how about those Yankees?!" ) by non-Christians or those of other churches. However, no one can debate against the beliefs of the congregation.

The part that you quoted basically applies to the Theology and Edification areas.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I think you misunderstand this forum and the issue that brought up the name change.

 

[SnowyMacie]

Could we reasonably revise the SOP, for more clarity? Keep what's there, but add some more points. For example:

1) @hedrick has spoken about the importance our community places on scholarship and the insights of the Enlightenment. So, something about the value we place on scholarly study of the Bible (including higher criticism) and scholarly study of science (including evolutionary biology) and archaeology. hedrick, do you have a good concise wording for this?

2) Something about social justice and/or the social gospel, the idea that being a Christian involves caring for the poor and needy as though we were caring for Christ himself; and also that this can involve changing social structures, not just individuals. This is the socially/politically liberal side of things. (I don't think it is actually liberal in the sense of #1, because it's right there in the gospels, ahem. Stepping off my soapbox now.)

3) Are there other points that liberal/progressive/mainline Christians have in common, that we could add to a statement?".

I think this is a good idea, add some more common values and beliefs to our SOP. I agree with points 1 and 2, and I think most of us would as well. I'm not sure what else we all agree on that's not covered by the things already in the SOP or this list.

I think one thing that could also help, if it's not already the case, is removing this subforum from the "New Posts" option, if that's not already done.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I don't know how to do that but will ask.

 

[SnowyMacie]

I don't know how to do that but will ask.

Thank you. I was talking to a friend from OBOB, that had a similar issue with a lot of non-members trying to debate their theology, about things they did and that's what they suggested.

 

[Shiloh Raven]

Thank you. I was talking to a friend from OBOB, that had a similar issue with a lot of non-members trying to debate their theology, about things they did and that's what they suggested.

Yeah, there are similar problems in the Lord's Table Liberal Catholics sub-forum too. And some of these non-members can be very persistent and they flat out ignore the forum's SOP and the Congregational Restriction rule too. It is annoying to have to deal with their blatant disregard for that forum's rules.

 

[SnowyMacie]

Also, @FreeinChrist is it possible my OP can be added back since this thread is staying open? I have it saved, but edited it to fit the discussion now.

"If you are not a member of this faith group, please do not participate in the poll, however I do have some questions for you...

@hedrick stated that the current membership here didn't choose the name, and I for one, while I agree with the principle behind the name, I think the name itself causes too much confusion among those not apart of our faith group. I wondered if perhaps we should have a discussion about the name of our subforum.

For WWMC members, what do you think about our current name "Whoever will, may come?" Do you think it causes some confusion about who is able to post here? Do you think the name should be changed? If so, do you have any ideas?

For non-WWMC members, have you ever been confused at what the phrase "Whoever will, may come" in the context of this forum? If so you think we should have a more definite name?"

 

[Shiloh Raven]

I think this is a good idea, add some more common values and beliefs to our SOP. I agree with points 1 and 2, and I think most of us would as well. I'm not sure what else we all agree on that's not covered by the things already in the SOP or this list.

I think one thing that could also help, if it's not already the case, is removing this subforum from the "New Posts" option, if that's not already done.

I think the faith group forums should be taken off the New Posts option too. It just causes a lot of problems with non-members coming into the safe haven of a faith group and stepping on toes, arguing contentiously against the core beliefs of that particular group and purposely ignoring the forum's SOP.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread had a clean up. This is not the place to debate Liberal Christianity.

ONLY members of this subforum should be posting in this thread. The actual choice for a name will be a separate thread. We can discuss the issue here, pick so ideas then have a vote.
​

 

[FreeinChrist]

Also, @FreeinChrist is it possible my OP can be added back since this thread is staying open? I have it saved, but edited it to fit the discussion now.

"If you are not a member of this faith group, please do not participate in the poll, however I do have some questions for you...

@hedrick stated that the current membership here didn't choose the name, and I for one, while I agree with the principle behind the name, I think the name itself causes too much confusion among those not apart of our faith group. I wondered if perhaps we should have a discussion about the name of our subforum.

For WWMC members, what do you think about our current name "Whoever will, may come?" Do you think it causes some confusion about who is able to post here? Do you think the name should be changed? If so, do you have any ideas?

For non-WWMC members, have you ever been confused at what the phrase "Whoever will, may come" in the context of this forum? If so you think we should have a more definite name?"

I changed it back. Let me know if it is okay.

 

[PloverWing]

http://storage.cloversites.com/sitehostllc/documents/A Conflict of Beliefs formatted July28009.pdf

Since the document you cite, "A Conflict of Beliefs", is a critique of the Episcopal church in particular, rather than mainline Christianity more generally, a discussion of it should probably occur in the Scripture, Tradition, Reason forum instead of this one. We can start a thread there, if you like. For now, just two brief comments on the document:

1) Katharine Jefferts Schori is Episcopalian. In our denomination, our unity is found primarily in the liturgy we use for worship, not in a detailed statement of doctrine. Thus, it is entirely appropriate for her to say "You don’t all have to profess exactly the same understandings of the central tenets of the faith. What’s important is to worship together" when speaking of the Episcopal Church in particular. This would not be true of other, more confessional denominations, such as the Lutherans or the Presbyterians.

2) Marcus Borg and Katharine Jefferts Schori are both theologians whose books are on my to-read list. I would not feel I could do justice to their complexity of thought just based on a couple of isolated quotes in the pamphlet; they deserve to be read more thoroughly before being evaluated.

 

[Paidiske]

Agreed that the issues here are bigger than Anglicanism, and a focus on Anglican issues is probably not helpful for this discussion.

I must admit that I've avoided this forum because I've been unclear in my own mind as to whether or not I "fit" here. I don't think of myself as a liberal, theologically. I would appreciate an SOP which made that an easier thing to work out.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I'm starting to appreciate the problem more, as I read the posts in this discussion. I'm also remembering that, back in the days when I was a conservative Evangelical, I associated the word "liberal" with "we don't really believe anything" or "we have no moral standards" -- both of which are wrong, of course, but the SOP doesn't really clarify that for outsiders reading it.

Could we reasonably revise the SOP, for more clarity? Keep what's there, but add some more points. For example:

1) @hedrick has spoken about the importance our community places on scholarship and the insights of the Enlightenment. So, something about the value we place on scholarly study of the Bible (including higher criticism) and scholarly study of science (including evolutionary biology) and archaeology. hedrick, do you have a good concise wording for this?

2) Something about social justice and/or the social gospel, the idea that being a Christian involves caring for the poor and needy as though we were caring for Christ himself; and also that this can involve changing social structures, not just individuals. This is the socially/politically liberal side of things. (I don't think it is actually liberal in the sense of #1, because it's right there in the gospels, ahem. Stepping off my soapbox now.)

3) Are there other points that liberal/progressive/mainline Christians have in common, that we could add to a statement?


As a postscript, I'll add that I don't see the participants in this group as being far-left "liberal" in the sense that Bishop Spong is. I'd certainly welcome Bishop Spong in this group, but most of the participants here seem to affirm most/all of the Nicene Creed, the Incarnation, salvation through the work of Christ -- the orthodox basics. I see most of the participants in WWMC as being pretty theologically mainstream. It's just that, by CF standards, merely accepting higher criticism or the ordination of women and gay people places you on the way-far-left of CF, even if you do also accept the Nicene Creed.

So, with some reluctance (because I still do like the original forum name), I'd support changing the name from "Whosoever Will, May Come - Liberal" to "Progressive Christians".

So you would like to see something added to the SOP about social issues and about scholarly pursuits?

 

[FreeinChrist]

So the names I saw so far are:
"Progressive Christians" (remove WWMC and Liberal)
"Proud Heretics - Liberal Christians"


I really don't like the proud heretics one. That can cause problems.


The reason that WWMC was picked is that as the site developed, there were those who felt unwelcome because they were gay Christians, or more liberal in thought, not fundamentalists, and there were Christians who wanted a place for themselves and others to be accepted. All folks were welcome here as long as they were respectful and did not go on rants and debate heavily. Some debate was okay, as long as it was calm and pleasant. Social justice was a focus as I remember it.

However, it seems that folks start posting here against some of the beliefs thinking it is open to all beliefs because of the name. But if they read the whole name, it would make it clear this is a liberal congregation.

So other than Progressive Christianity, what names can you think of?

 

[FreeinChrist]

as to the SOP, what about adding something like:

4. Progressive Christians value scholarly study of the Bible (including higher criticism) and of science, including evolutionary biology, archaeology, climate science and astronomy.

5. Progressive Christians take Christ at His word that we are to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and to care for the sick. (Matthew 25: 35 - 40)


The statements in the SOP need to be short and concise for the searching member to be able to see it in a quick look.
Regarding #4, I figure most progressives believe there is climate change, and that there is evolution, correct?

Regarding #5, most progressive/liberal Christians I know would support social programs for the poor, and medical coverage for all.

Thoughts??

 

[SnowyMacie]

as to the SOP, what about adding something like:

4. Progressive Christians value scholarly study of the Bible (including higher criticism) and of science, including evolutionary biology, archaeology, climate science and astronomy.

5. Progressive Christians take Christ at His word that we are to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and to care for the sick. (Matthew 25: 35 - 40)


The statements in the SOP need to be short and concise for the searching member to be able to see it in a quick look.
Regarding #4, I figure most progressives believe there is climate change, and that there is evolution, correct?

Regarding #5, most progressive/liberal Christians I know would support social programs for the poor, and medical coverage for all.

Thoughts??

I think "Safe Space - Progressive" or "Safe Space - Liberal" could be good enough to submit to the vote. I like those additions to the SOP, five points seems like a reasonable number to have to be specific about what we mean by liberal/progressive Christianity, but I think a better wording for number 5 would be "Progressive Christians see social justice issues such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, helping the poor, and taking care of the sick as a central theme of scripture and vital compent of Christ's command to love our neighbor as ourselves"

 

[PloverWing]

as to the SOP, what about adding something like:

4. Progressive Christians value scholarly study of the Bible (including higher criticism) and of science, including evolutionary biology, archaeology, climate science and astronomy.

5. Progressive Christians take Christ at His word that we are to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and to care for the sick. (Matthew 25: 35 - 40)

I like #4 and #5.

Most progressives are going to accept the scientific consensus on things unless there's a good reason not to, I think, so "yes" to the items you list. It wouldn't have occurred to me to list climate science, but, yeah, that probably needs to be said.

 

[PloverWing]

I don't know that "Safe Space" needs to be said in the title, if people are paying attention to the CF rules. All the Faith Groups forums are safe spaces, right? You aren't supposed to post anti-Catholic stuff in the Catholic forum, anti-tongues stuff in the Pentecostal forum, etc.

I do with I could think of a more poetic title to go with "Progressive Christians". I like the others -- "Bridge Builders", "The Voice in the Desert", etc. But I haven't been inspired yet.

An informational question: FreeinChrist said that this was once a safe space for gay Christians (among others):

The reason that WWMC was picked is that as the site developed, there were those who felt unwelcome because they were gay Christians, or more liberal in thought, not fundamentalists, and there were Christians who wanted a place for themselves and others to be accepted.

As I understand it, there is no longer a safe space for gay Christians at CF, not even in WWMC, because of sitewide rules. Is that correct?

 

[Albion]

as to the SOP, what about adding something like:

4. Progressive Christians value scholarly study of the Bible (including higher criticism) and of science, including evolutionary biology, archaeology, climate science and astronomy.

5. Progressive Christians take Christ at His word that we are to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and to care for the sick. (Matthew 25: 35 - 40)

The typical Conservative Christian would readily agree to those statements as written, too. The only exception would be the part about higher criticism, but if that's important to include, say it outright without making it sound like this is the only study that can be scholarly.

 

[PloverWing]

I'm happy with either FreeinChrist's or TX_Matt's wording of #5.